iDRY Vacuum Kilns

Sponsors:

Welding ?

Started by Norm, December 02, 2008, 03:42:09 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Norm

I have a blade on the 3pt hitch of my tractor. It needs some welding work on it. Do I need to remove it from the tractor to weld or is it ok to leave it on.

Radar67

Norm, I had the same question. I asked my FIL, who welded professionally for many years. I want to weld a couple of brackets on the front of my tractor. He told me to remove the battery before hooking up the ground wire and welding.
"A man's time is the most valuable gift he can give another." TOM

If he can cling to his Blackberry, I can cling to my guns... Me

This will kill you, that will kill you, heck...life will kill you, but you got to live it!

"The man who can comprehend the why, can create the how." SFC J

Dodgy Loner

My brother did a little welding on my dad's tractor without unhooking the battery.  Maybe that's what's wrong with the battery :D
"There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey." -John Ruskin

Any idiot can write a woodworking blog. Here's mine.

Raider Bill

Just disconnect the battery ground wire and weld away!
The First 70 years of childhood is always the hardest.

isawlogs


Like they have said all you need to do is disconnect the ground on the battery .... I have in the past welded many times with out taking the ground off the battery , I would put the ground for the welder between the welding area and the tractor . But it is recomended to take the ground off . I guess its one of those " do as I saye , not like I do "   ;D :D
A man does not always grow wise as he grows old , but he always grows old as he grows wise .

   Marcel

SwampDonkey

Dad used to weld on the potato harvester and never unhooked no batteries. There was one on the harvester to, to start the motor to run the air vac. I ain't saying you guys are wrong in doing it or nothing. ;D
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Raider Bill

It's not so much that you will damage the battery, it's the electronics that could get zapped.
The First 70 years of childhood is always the hardest.

scsmith42

Be sure to attach your ground to the implement, rather than the tractor.  That will minimize any current that could negatively impact the tractor's electronics.
Peterson 10" WPF with 65' of track
Smith - Gallagher dedicated slabber
Tom's 3638D Baker band mill
and a mix of log handling heavy equipment.

Reddog

Not only electronics, but also bearings and machined surfaces.
If you cause an arc through a bearing it may seize or fail. Also you can seize hydraulic cylinders up real nice.

That said, I hook the ground to the implement and weld away.

caz

The worst thing about welding is not hurting the battery its blowing up the battery.
All batteries emit fumes and all it takes is one spark and boom no more battery.

I've personnaly seen this happen twice at the race track and both times the ground was removed one time the poor guy got covered with acid and they hauled him away with some good burns on himself.

If your close to it remove it !

DanG

There sure are a lot of differing opinions about this.  I think I'd just drop the blade off the tractor and not worry about it. :D :D
"I don't feel like an old man.  I feel like a young man who has something wrong with him."  Dick Cavett
"Beat not thy sword into a plowshare, rather beat the sword of thine enemy into a plowshare."

SwampDonkey

Good 'ole DanG has to show you green horns how to weld. ;D

That was funny. :D


No, I have never welded. That was Dad's job to fix stuff my brother broke up. One time my brother, Mr Genius, decided he never needed no welding glasses and suffered for it for several days afterward. Not so funny, but still..........:D
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

DanG

I learned to weld from my Dad.  I just watched him, and did everything differently. ::) :D  He seemed to think that the arc was strong enough to burn through paint and rust, so he never cleaned anything before striking a spark on it.  He also had an awful lot of failures.  I clean everything involved, paying close attention to the spot where my ground clip is fastened.  I even clean the clamp itself.  Electricity will flow through the path of least resistance, and if your ground isn't good, it will use the battery cable.  If you just must weld something on your tractor, go ahead and sacrifice a little bit of that pretty green paint to get a good ground.  If you can only clean one side of the area where your ground is fastened, make sure that is the side your clamp's wire is fastened to.  If you don't, the current will flow through the spring on the clamp and take the temper out of it.
"I don't feel like an old man.  I feel like a young man who has something wrong with him."  Dick Cavett
"Beat not thy sword into a plowshare, rather beat the sword of thine enemy into a plowshare."

Reddog

Same reason we weld the ground on. Strike your arc on the ground then burn thought the paint and rust. Then you know the ground will be good and less chance of stray voltage going other places.

VT

This is my Trade.

To weld on any high tech vehicles with electronics , the best way to deal with welding on a unit is to know the amount of welding your going to do and how far the electricity needs to go through to make a complete circuit . Never make the electricity / power go through any bushing / bearing , always make sure the ground clamp is as close as possible and on the same part of the steel as your welding on.Adding a "D-Ring" to a bucket, grind the ground area where the clamp is to ground , grind and clean the area where the "d-ring " is to be welded and also the ring, keep the grounding area on the same  but close area on the main bucket.  Always clean the ground contact area for a good contact and it's tight so no welding / sparks from the clamp to the spot picked as the ground. Next is where you need to weld , that also should be cleaned and ground cleaned with a grinder so the weld area is not left with impurities in the weld plus much less splatter and stray currants , effecting the electronics .. Next is the preparation for protecting the electronics , 12 volt Tractors / woodmizer mill type of setup as an example : Since most of the basic electronics use chips IC's without holding storage caps , then this would be a safe bleed down without the later 2007 type of High Tech systems. Disconnect battery earth negative, and now install any 12 volt light bulb between the disconnected earth wire to the main power wire from the battery. That way the bulb would act as a fuse / bulb and a bleed down for the IC's. If the bulb lights , you have power still there and something is still connected (second backup battery) . Bulb out , connect the earth negative disconnected wire to the power shorting the neg and positive without any power in the system and the battery out of the picture. When you
go to weld and the stray power / electricity has no where to go since all the wires and circuits are of the same potential .
VT

Also have the key / ignition  system off when any connect and disconnection is done.

Clear as mud im sure

DanG

Good post, VT!  I had never heard or thought of the light bulb trick before, but I like it.  I wouldn't be all that concerned about the electronic components in vehicles, as long as the battery is disconnected.  You would have to have a pretty funky arrangement to toast them.  With a properly connected welder, and a good clean ground on the workpiece, the chances of stray electrons zapping anything is pretty remote.  I know that once you complete the first tack, the 2 pieces being joined are electrically one, but have you ever run seperate grounds to them, on special occasions?
"I don't feel like an old man.  I feel like a young man who has something wrong with him."  Dick Cavett
"Beat not thy sword into a plowshare, rather beat the sword of thine enemy into a plowshare."

VT

Well Dan , This is what I do .
And this quote ""I wouldn't be all that concerned about the electronic components in vehicles, as long as the battery is disconnected.  You would have to have a pretty funky arrangement to toast them.""

This is done more than most know. And the reason they have special tools that connect to the vehicles just for doing welding / bodywork etc.

I work / instruct  on the most  funky arrangement Vehicles so far sold.
VT

but have you ever run separate grounds to them, on special occasions?  = Yes , Solar powered Oyster skiff.

VT

DanG

Quote from: VT on December 02, 2008, 10:20:22 PM

but have you ever run separate grounds to them, on special occasions?  = Yes , Solar powered Oyster skiff.

VT

I'd say that is pretty high on the funky scale! :D :D  I'm guessing you had about a gazillion bucks worth of PV cells on one side of that joint? :o

I'm not very much of a welder, not certified or anything, but I do have a lot of experience in protecting sensitive electronics from stray currents.  A good solid ground is the way to go!

I've got one more point that may, or may not, be important to someone down the line.  If you're welding something to a vehicle that has a computer, should not the ground clamp be secured to the vehicle, rather than to the piece being attached?  It seems to me that this would make a difference in the possibility of frying something. ??? :P
"I don't feel like an old man.  I feel like a young man who has something wrong with him."  Dick Cavett
"Beat not thy sword into a plowshare, rather beat the sword of thine enemy into a plowshare."

isawlogs


The ground should always be as close as you can get it to what you are welding , if it is on the three point hitch , then put the ground on it , close to the weld . Unless you are welding part "a"  to the car/truck ... then put the ground to the car/truck/whatever..... Again as close to the weld as possible .
A man does not always grow wise as he grows old , but he always grows old as he grows wise .

   Marcel

Gary_C

The service manual for my harvester and forwarder includes the following instructions.

Disconnect the ground cable from the battery.
Disconnect the positive cable from the alternator.
Disconnect the charging lamp lead-voltage sensing- from the alternator.
Disconnect cables to computers CPU and to electronic units like engine electronics.
Connect the welder ground cable as close as possible to the weld site.
Clean the weld site thoroughly of paint, rust, and flammable fluids.  ::)

In addition to the electrical considerations, you also have to consider your ability to weld in all positions. For me, I can weld pretty well on horizontal and vertical surfaces, but the underside is not so good. So if it needs a good weld on the underside, I'd take it off, unless it was a lot of work.  ::)

But that's just me.  ;D
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

VT

Welding a door on a car / truck , disconnect battery as stated above ^^^^ ...Cap OFF the battery connections and make power and ground the same potential..  Grind a part on the door frame to become the ground point .. grind the area of where the weld is to be. Now when welding door frame to the skin and internal brackets , the power is only going through the frame part , not through any hinge or bonding brad / grounding system .

Having the same potential is the way all hydro guys work with to aircraft helio techs use the same type of system , and there working on static potential..(potential= EMF)


Welding on any salt water craft (in water), and its all electric , there is certain ways to do this. PV panels are not the big $ items , it's the electronics / gps / etc. power inverters plus.


Plus i would not ""Disconnect the positive cable from the alternator"" and leave it to floating potential , and there is more than only 1 wire on an alt leaving in danger of frying the diode bridge.


VT 

Norm

Well thanks for the great advice guys, I now am officially dangerous. :D

I think in this case I'll drop off the blade to do the welding but the info here is great for when I'll need to  weld on the tractor itself. Thanks again. :)

Weekend_Sawyer


Norm,

I beleive that's the right way to do it. My Uncle died many years ago because he welded on his truck too near the saddle tank. My Father, among other things, was a welder and taught me alot about welding. Separate yourself from potential dangers.

Jon
Imagine, Me a Tree Farmer.
Jon, Appalachian American Wannabe.

Tom

When safety is in question, we shouldn't question it.

Sometimes we get hung up on the remoteness of an incident and decide that it couldn't happen to us.  Then it does.  Many things only have to happen once to give you no second chance.

I have a friend in St. George whose brother was adjusting a carburetor and racing the engine with the linkage.  He was standing on the front bumper and leaning over the radiator into the engine compartment.   He raced the engine one time and a fan blade (or the fan, I don't know which) came loose and flew upwards, piercing him through his heart.  He died quickly after that happened without anyone even being able to say goodbye.

We don't always recognize danger, but if we do, don't let the remoteness of an accident enter into the equation.

This has nothing to do with welding, but it seemed apropo just the same.

DanG

Thank you for asking the question, Norm.  Without the question, it wouldn't have been much of a discussion, would it? ;) :D :D
"I don't feel like an old man.  I feel like a young man who has something wrong with him."  Dick Cavett
"Beat not thy sword into a plowshare, rather beat the sword of thine enemy into a plowshare."

rebocardo

> my harvester and forwarder includes the following instructions

That is pretty much how I do it myself, I disconnect both battery cables too.

I have blown light bulbs with my MIG welder just because they were too near the work site, even though the piece I was working on had a good clamp and ground with the above precautions mentioned.

I do not know what killed them, except they all died in a week after the work. I think EMI might have been the cause.

Slabs

"IF" any electronic damage to anything is going to occur around it a welding operation it will be either from "arc transients" (high voltage impulses that occur when the arc is broken) or from misdirected high current flow due to  poor placement of the "ground" lead of the welder.  Leave the battery connected in all cases as it provedes a "buffer/supresser" medium for induced transients like it does for the alternator.  Disconnecting "electronic" circuits such as the pulse-width-modulator speed controls  ( as on the Misers)is a good idea but often not practical. On the tractors, put the ground clamp as close to the welding area as possible and weld away.

Good luck (though I don't think luck is an issue)

Slabs  : Offloader, slab and sawdust Mexican, mill mechanic and electrician, general flunky.  Woodshop, metal woorking shop and electronics shop.

SwampDonkey

In most high schools around here up until a few years ago you could study welding in shop. I think they are bringing the trades back to the high schools now because they finally realized how stupid it was to drop it.  ::) That fool Premier Mckenna done that when he introduced call centres to NB. Dad had a number of books from school on welding and machining. He bought a couple of new potato harvesters since they first came out over the 40 + years he farmed here. He built both those all over and added automatic level, automatic height adjustment to the loading boom, speed belts instead of digger legs, shakers on the primary beds to clean dirt off the conveyor bed when the soil was quite firm after those dreary fall rains, teflon armoring to reduce wear of the steal along the sided of the conveyors, hydraulics to clean the air vac head, reinforced the frame. The way I see it, those things were only half built, dad finished them. :D
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Thank You Sponsors!