Setting up two M-14 bell saws on the west coast.

[backwoods sawyer]

The first thing to keep in mind is these two saws are similar but of different vintages, with different drive set ups. They are also being set up on different locations but with similar types of production in the end.

The north mill will be set up and operated in north western Washington state.
The south mill will be set up and operated in west central Oregon.

Both mills are at these locations now. The cleaning up and maintenance of them is in the very early stages. Any advice that you want to give is always welcome. There are always choices that can affect how well a machine works, I would like to understand those so I can do it right the first time.
Areas that would be helpful now are Repairs that can come back to haunt you later if they are not fixed or adjusted now, site lay out, motor selection, drive set ups.

The north mill was setup backwards so that a standard engine would run it.
The south mill has the 6 "V" belt drive from the arbor to the drive line back across under the mill to a flat plate. 

[Tom]

I don't know much about circle mills, but make sure that you have running water nearby, and a coffee pot within reach. 

[sgschwend]

It would be helpful (north mill guy) if power solutions could be recommended.  Stuff like: how do you handle disconnecting power?  Setting up saw rpm with pulley ratios.  Power plants that work, those who don't.

Thanks for the help!

[bandmiller2]

Backwoods are these mills going to make a living or hobby.You west coasters have some real timber are they up to it?All I can picture in my mind is a huge doug fir log being rolled on the belsaw carrage.To drive a Belsaw with a standard engine or power unit you need to turn the engine around and have a jackshaft.What I mean is have the fan end faceing the mill, shaft running along the side of the engine ,belts to the output [clutch] side.The belts give you the slip clutch then run a truck drive shaft with U joints up to the arbor.Their is little on a belsaw mill that a clever lad can't make or buy at the local supply house.The most important thing is log handling and turning,haveing the log brow the right hight and flipup log turners to reduce the shock to the carrage.keep us posted. Frank C.

[bandmiller2]

Belsaw mills just cry to have a tractor PTO drive them If you can find a big old tractor with bad tires block it up behind the mill.If you use a "good" tractor you will be using it for field work and have to realign things and throttle linkage all the time.The 550 PTO speed is just right for a mill.Frank C.

[Meadows Miller]

Gday

North Miller If it where me id go for a little 371 453 or 471 Screaming Jimmi or a Perkins 4cyl ,6306 or 6354 depending on the Dia saw your running with the clutch drive settup and pulley sizes if you have a 6 in drive pully to run the mandrel at 550 to run the motor at 1800 rpm you would need to have a 19" in mandrel pulley min 4 belts
Also if the mill has been converted to LH operation you will have to check that the mandrel nut is the right hand thred if it has not been changed you might have to look at drilling it and putting a cotter or split pin in as a short term measure untill you can change the hand of the thered or mandrel  ;) ;D

South Miller Id go with Franks idea as these mills where built to runn of a pto and there isint much difference between buying a  tractor with a good driveline that might look alittle rough  or a good static motor  ;) ;D

Im just got a pic in my head of a little M14 or M16 with a 26"+ 16' D/fir log on it  ;) :D ;D 8) Dad and I looked at importing a new M16 years ago from Timber king afew years before they stoped building them  :( (we brought the bandsaw mill instead as it was allready in Australia) I LIKE EM they have done a power of work for People over the years  and I reckon id look at getting one if i was starting out again  in 6" to 16" short logs under 16' alot  ;) ;D 8) 8)

Reguards Chris

[backwoods sawyer]

These are pictures of the south mill. Both the north and south mill owners have fully hydraulic bandmills (Different brands) to handle most of the milling. The round saws are more for custom cutting of wood with the "rustic" round saw look. The south mill has about 30' of track so will be limited on how long of wood that it can cut. This area was not big on farming so finding old tractors that still run could be a challenge. I have come up with a Pontiac 451 with automat trany. Would this motor be a good choice for the south mill? With the drive line that I have how would be the best way to set it up? I also have the full set of six belts for the drive.

[sgschwend]

Thanks for the ideas, it is a big help to hear what other folks think.  Has anybody ever gone with an electric drive?


Here is the sawmill in the as found condition, the woods had almost reclaimed it:




On my trailer is the 50' track and carriage:




The carriage has been cleaned and painted, some of the parts are still removed waiting for painting





What a great project!  Already local folks are asking me you demonstrate the mill to them.

[backwoods sawyer]

Looking good sgschwend.
As you can see, there are some differences in the carriages. The north mill ratchets from the center and the south mill ratchets from the end.

The south mill was found falling over in this condition.

[bandmiller2]

Backwoods,I would try using your car engine with the auto trans in reverse that will give you the right rotation[engine backside of mill] and probibly close to the right gear ratio.With the torque converter I would not worry about a slip clutch although a shear pin wouldn't hurt.How long will the tranny last running in reverse?? i don't really know i would say for part time use a long time.Frank C.

[bandmiller2]

Backwoods,if your going to use the automatic trans be sure to keep it cool.The radiator has a coil in it but not really enough when your pulling real power from the engine.Take the condenser from a window air conditioner and put it in series with one of the lines going to the radiator cooler.If everything works well I would consider synthetic trans oil latter. Frank C.

[sgschwend]

North Sawmill:
I have a question about the feed rate commonly used.

How does 9 inches/second infeed, and 24 inches/second outfeed sound?

What feeds do you use?

My saw is 48".

[Meadows Miller]

Gday


Sgschwend You will know when the feed speeds rite  ;) ;D its somthing that you will get a feel for over time  mate  ;) You will know when your overfeeding tho  :(  ;) :D :D I think its a steady loss of power and saw rpm usually followed by the saw wanting to layover carryon and do some dammage to somthing  if you dont ease up :( ;) :D :D ;D I go by saw speed the sound of the motor and the sound of the saw yep you can even hear the differance in pitch when the saws starting to loose its edge  ;) ;D ;D
how many teeth are in that 48" saw and what style of tooth is it  ???

Reguards Chris

[backwoods sawyer]

Backwoods,I would try using your car engine with the auto trans in reverse that will give you the right rotation[engine backside of mill] and probibly close to the right gear ratio.With the torque converter I would not worry about a slip clutch although a shear pin wouldn't hurt.How long will the tranny last running in reverse?? i don't really know i would say for part time use a long time.Frank C.

With the driveline and belts, the motor will sit on the operator side of the saw. I am thinking that should give me the correct rotation. I will want to make sure there is plenty of cooling power for the trany as you say as it can pull a load.

[sgschwend]

MM,

How many teeth?  Size?

From my quick count the number of teeth are 42,  size 5/16".

Since I am remaking the transmission I need to know the top speed the carriage should run at, in both forward and reverse.  The trans will slip and I can throttle it back to control the cut, but the condition of this machine does not indicate the working feed speeds.

thanks for the help

[StorminN]

Thanks for the ideas, it is a big help to hear what other folks think.  Has anybody ever gone with an electric drive?

Sgschwend,

There's a circle mill across the bay from where I live (Sequim, WA... a little over an hour from you). I believe it's a Belsaw, I can find out for sure. The mill hasn't been run in a few years, and the owner just passed away this past summer, he was in his 80's and the father of a co-worker of mine. The mill is powered by a 3-phase electric, not sure the size. It had been powered by a diesel before that. I'll try and get the details and post them here...

-N.

[bandmiller2]

Steve, a belsaw feed is fixed you can slip the v belts and slow it down, but the feed is controled by the arbor speed that is governed by what the saw is hammered for.If you have the origional parts,that is the right pulleys,all you have to worry about is running the blade at its hammered speed,probibly 550rpm.A belsaw will feed at one speed and gig back three times faster.I'am not sure how the automatic trans. will act under load it may want to downshift when your making a cut that would mess up your arbor speed.Their are ways to lock a trans.in direct drive but i don't know them.A 48" headsaw is a big wheel and will require alot of power and torque the 1 3/4" arbor is a little light I would not try to feed faster than the belsaw was designed for. Frank C.

[Meadows Miller]

Gday

This Is the part where I wish I Didnt loan out sales imformation to mates  : you never see it again   :'( ;) :D ;D As the timberking one i had that had all the info is looonng gone  :-\  sorry i cant help with firm figures but it might be worth giving timberking a quick call or shoting them an email  ;) ;D

Chris

[sgschwend]

North sawmill.

It would be great to visit that other saw!  Nothing better than looking at one up close.

I have a mixture of parts, original and new.  It appears to me the last owner even added an additional shaft with extra pulleys to provide reduction.  I have found a web page that has the owner's manual online. In looking at the drawing my plan is to put the transmission back together but I can exactly tell what the sizes are of all the pulleys.  Yes I understand that the saw sets the speed.

I am leaning towards picking up a tractor and using it for power.  There is a 30-40 hp Farmall M near hear that I think may be too small ($400).  Another is a Ford 9N ($500), again low hp.

I posted the carriage picture, does that carriage ring a bell?  I believe it was modified too.

[HOGFARMER]

I too am also working on a Belsaw M-14.  I recently bought an instillation and operators manual from Timberking.  It is very complete and provides complete instructions for foundation, assembly, and operation.  It contains many drawings and photos.  Give them a call, they are a sponsor and a link to their website is on the left edge of this page.

[backwoods sawyer]

sgschwend 
Here is a veiw of the south mill in forward.


And in reverse.


Hope this helps.
HOGFARMER how far along are you with setting yours up?

[sgschwend]

Here is a picture of what mine should look like before the previous owner modified the Husk.





The previous owner added an extra axle on the input with a 3/7 reduction, then moved the matching reverse direction pulleys to the inside of the transmission and changed the ratio to 3/5 instead of 1:1.  Then moved the forward speed matching pulleys to the inside of the transmission and changed the ratio to 10/4 instead of 1:1.  Then moved the tension rollers to the inside of the transmission so that a single handle could shift the transmission without an axle.  The wire drum/pulley is currently 4", which I assume is the wrong size too.

Here is a partial after picture, sorry about the leaves:





You can see the new axle on the right side is connected between the mandrel and the original 15 inch pulley.  On the left side you can see the sprockets used for reversing and the two pulleys near the sprockets should be on the outside of those shafts, that would match the owner's manual picture above.

[bandmiller2]

Steve, the Farmall M will do the deed,but its minimal for a 48" headsaw if its in good shape.Forget the 9n no moxie there for a big saw.The guy that modified your feed is no dummy I would try it as he made it.The picture you posted of the belsaw pressed steel wonder is what all the later belsaws used,it works quite well if not abused.You just got to love this stuff.Frank C.

[sgschwend]

How would you rate a Detroit 371?

Still too small?

[Meadows Miller]

Gday


It would be a Dang Near PERFECT MATCH  for Your sawmill Sgschwend ;) ;D Plenty of power for a 48" on a Timberking and alot better fuel economy too boot  ;) ;D ;D ;D 8) 8) How mutch and in what condition and is it allready settup as a power pack  ???

Reguards Chris

[zopi]

Belsaw manuals for your reading enjoyment...

http://www.owwm.com/mfgindex/detail.aspx?id=86&tab=3

[backwoods sawyer]

Thank you Zopi for the link.

I have the 52" saw with 36 teeth. Any ideas on how big of motor it will take to run it?

[Meadows Miller]

Gday


Backwoods I reckon about 70 horse power min around 100hp would be better eg 371,453 , 471 would about do the job I run my circular mill with 44" 38 tooth B style saw with a 6.306 6cyl perkins in my chamberlain loader of the pto 80 hp and it only loads up when you overfeed it most of the time she's just ticking over uses bout 10gal for a full day

Reguards Chris

[Sprucegum]

On one of our other threads I was advised to aim for 3 hp per tooth so for 36 teeth you would want 108 horsepower.

[backwoods sawyer]

That would put the north mill needing 126 hp to turn the smaller 42 tooth 48" saw and the south mill needing 108 hp for the larger 36 tooth 52" saw.
At least it gets us in the ballpark. It looks like I have three big block motors with trany to choose from. 451 Pontiac, 460 ford, and a 454 Chevy. I was thinking about the 451 until the 460 came available, as that is the same motor that is in my truck. Spare parts would inter change as long as they are with in a few decades of each other.
I will be laying out a log to mill down with the CSM to use for the frame of the mill. I am thinking that the longest log I have that is large enough is in the 25'-30' range and at the back of the stacks of short cherry logs I should be able get away with only having to move forty or fifty 4' logs to pull it out.

Is there any thing special I should keep in mind for building the frame?

[beenthere]

backwoods sawyer
Do you have the Circular Sawmills book by Stan Lunstrum? There may be helpful information there, as well as Basic Horsepower table 14 for head saws.

Here is a link.

http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/misc/circsaw.pdf

If you want a hard copy, contact Rusty Dramm, Forest Products Lab, One Gifford Pinchot Dr., Madison, WI  53726.  Should be able to get one free.

[backwoods sawyer]

thanks

[bandmiller2]

Backwoods,use the most stable wood you can get your hands on for the mill base.I think you would be better off with three shorter sections than trying for one piece easier to level and less twist.I would cut the timbers oversize let them sit and work out most of their fustrations then recut to size.The booklet Beenthere mentioned is the bible of circular milling a good read.Engines you mention have horse power but not the best type for milling,they will eat you out of house and home.If you could find a old truck diesel, large bore ,slow turning with torque.Keep us posted.Frank C.

[Meadows Miller]

Gday

Like Frank said Id also use dry under 22 % FSP timber somthing local that is known for its stability im also a fan of green sawn air dry than resawn to final size aswell  i do it on larger section  boxed heart for timber frames i go about 2"+ over the final size as we get alot of spiral grain in the plantation timber down here  but im usually picky about the logs that get used for those jobs ;) ;D

I hope You got good credit with your fuel supplyer  ;) :D a 460 gas motor will drink more than a Shearer on a Bender mate    :( >:( ;) :D :D ;D Id go with a desiel motor they have a powerband and fuel habit more sutable for sawmilling

Circular sawmills and their efficient operation is the best written resorce a smaller circ sawmiller could have apart from the FF IMHO  ;) i reckon alot of sawyers back when it was first published would have been alot happier having it for quick referance before the days of the WWW Ive had my copy for 2/3 years and love it ;) ;D 8)

Reguards Chris

[zopi]

Thanks for the link! I've kinda been reading up on circle mills...I don't understand half of what you guys talk about...

[bandmiller2]

Zopi,rebuilding and using an old handset circular mill is the ultimate challenge.I'll bet theirs one rusting away in the woods within walking distance of where you live.[mayby a long walk]?Once you run one you will never be the same.Frank C.

[york]

Hi all,

Have looked at a few m-14 in my day-my feelings are that that 52 inch saw is way too big for the m-14-all of the Bellsaw mill i ever saw never had more that a 48 inch piece of steel on them-with a 48 in. saw you could get away with a super-M-these mill were built with the farm tractor in mind-Bellsaw mills were built for farmers-that 52 in. saw will take gobs of power to stand up in the cut..Bigger saw more power and this mill is just not built for this kind of power...Bert

[Meadows Miller]

Hi all,

Have looked at a few m-14 in my day-my feelings are that that 52 inch saw is way too big for the m-14-all of the Bellsaw mill i ever saw never had more that a 48 inch piece of steel on them-with a 48 in. saw you could get away with a super-M-these mill were built with the farm tractor in mind-Bellsaw mills were built for farmers-that 52 in. saw will take gobs of power to stand up in the cut..Bigger saw more power and this mill is just not built for this kind of power...Bert

Gday
Bert I agree but also think it could handel swinging the 52" saw but woldnt need anything over about a hundred horsepower  as that would be just Overkill as its not a highproduction Sawmill that is going to cop the type of hammering and feed speeds that you get with the larger mills  ;)

Reguards Chris

[bandmiller2]

The big problem with a large headsaw on a belsaw mill is the arbor.Most have a 1 3/4"dia.shaft just not enough for the power needed to spin the big wheel.They were designed for a 40" blade,myself I would not go over 46".Size is over rated,more bits,more shanks ,more problems with tension.For years I ran a 44"Simons 32 B pattern I cut some big pine and never had a problem. Seeing as you have a big wheel I would consider cutting with every outher tooth at moderate feed.Frank C.

[york]

Frank,you are right on-the m-14 arbor was 1 and 3/4 inch-about the size of the set shaft on other mills....

Back when i was looking for a mill,i met Cecile Mellott in pa-he was dealer for Meadows mills-this guy knew his stuff-he said for the mill that i wanted,the no1-wood mill,that he would not go over 48 inch-and this mill was a stout little mill-He not only was dealer,but also had a tie mill and creosote plant...

this was in 1976-not sure if he is still with us....Bert

[Meadows Miller]

Gday

Frank & Bert    to find that they run a 1 & 3/4 . I thought they where atleast 2" dia  All the older blokes I know overhere that have built there own mills say the min shaft you would use would be 2" dia for a 3'shaft and each foot longer you add 1/4" to the dia that used to be the old rule of thumb downunder ;)
The settshaft on the old 2#deluxe carriage i have here is 2"dia and Ive allready planned my saw  shaft 2 &1/2 by 4'  long with heavy 8 collars  ;) ;D

That 1 3/4 mandrel might be a little on the light side to be swinging the 52" saw but it might have to do untill he can find somthing smaller as you wouldnt want to spring the mandrel or get a heavyer mandrel

Bert did you get that Meadows 1# Ive seen pics of Cecile Mellott with my Grand father in the 80s as Puppa was the dealer  for both Meadows mills and Mellot sawmill equipment for a fair few years through his company Pacific Sawmill Co they sold about 10 fully equipped  sawmills in Aus and afew in other countrys . Pappa also has the same opinion of Cecile as you do but im not sure if he is still around mate  ;)

Reguards Chris   

[york]

Hey Chris,
i would love to see that pic.

Cecile Mellott,was the guy who helped me get my start,good man...

He even made arrangements,for me to pick up my mill at the factory at north Wilkesboro,nc-so i also got the tour of the factory-good time in my life....

[backwoods sawyer]

Good info.
Well the good news is that I have a 2.1/4" arbor that is 50" long.

[Meadows Miller]

Gday

Backwoods looks as if the previous owner had allready taken steps to Beef it up abit mate  ;) ;D Have You made a decision on the power plant yet  ;)

Bert Ill have to get the other couple photo albums off  Puppa As he has got one of Meadows mills plant and a couple of sawmills and another of Mellots plant and and sawmill the pics are from 83 and 85 when Puppa went over to have a look and then again to sign the agreements with them  ;D  i was only 3 1/2 when the first mill arrived but can remember it was a Big deal  un packing the boxes  ;) :D :D :D ;D

Reguards Chris

[bandmiller2]

Backwoods,glad you have the heavier arbor.My Chase arbor is 2 15/16 and is considered good for around 100hp,no fast rules depends how you run it.If your 52" saw has alot of teeth I would still consider cutting with every outher one.If your not in a big hurry it will ease your power requirements,and be a little easier on the belsaw.Alot of the sawyers working today got their start on a belsaw mill.Friends of mine that now have a Lane #1 with a big Murfey diesel got their start with a belsaw,they got fustrated with the feed rate so they changed it to feed at gigback speed,and handled boards wile it was gigging back slowly.Fasten everything well,guards on moving parts,those big wheels can lay some serious hurt on you quick.Frank C.

[york]

ok guys,

the arbor on my Meadows #1 was only 2 and 3/16 inch-this was the standard mill-me got good advice,not to go bigger than 48 inch-Frank,your right,there a few m-14 in my area,not being used...

[HOGFARMER]

Just curious what are you planning to use for sawdust removal on these mills.  This is an issue that I am currently considering as I am also installing a M-14 mill.  I bpught mine from a  friend of Woody 1 in Pa.  It was complete and set up at itme of purchase.

[bandmiller2]

Hogfarmer,alot of the Belsaws used for farm and part time use don't have any sawdust removal system outher than a rake and shovel.Their built above ground and have room for dust under the saw,you cut several logs and pull the sawdust out,using it for critter bedding.A conveyer or blower can always be added later if buildup becomes a problem.Us part time sawyers can get away with alot less than a commercial mill. Frank C.

[backwoods sawyer]

Good question.
The way this mill was set up was simply a small pit that needed shovel out every few logs.

It would be nice to have some sort of drag chain or belt to take it away from the frame of the mill so that it can then be moved with the tractor. At the very least the pit under the saw would need to be wide enough to use the tractor to scrape it out with. Allowing room for the bucket to curl could also dictate the height of the mill frame as well. Then you also add in the risk of knocking the mill out of alignment. Therefore, I am leaning towards sheeting in the area under the saw to funnel the sawdust down to some sort of conveyor. I have an extra pulley on my mill that turns full time. It would put the drive at the bottom of the conveyor so an "S" drive would be needed to prevent slipping if a belt was used. Depending on your set up, moving the sawdust 10 feet could make all the difference. The conveyor system could be wood framed. In addition, it could dump into a three-sided wooden box so the tractor could scoop it up to move it.

Another option would be setting up the mill on a higher plateau. This would allow for a slope sheet to be placed under the mill moving the sawdust down the hill and out from under the mill with no effort involved.

[bandmiller2]

I suppose a fella could use an old snowmobile track/belt,or even use the wifes treadmill to get the dust away from the saw.Frank C.

[Sprucegum]

  If you can get your wife to run on the treadmill while you're sawing you might as well get her to tail some boards while you're at it  :D  :D

[backwoods sawyer]

You could even use a bicycle to power the belt, however the line of helpers to move the sawdust could be a bit short. Do you really want to ride a bike at the end of the day?

[Meadows Miller]

Gday

Or You could build a Gym next door to the mill and run everything of a line shaft  ;) :D :D :D ;D The Missis can run run the gym and make more money than you flogging your gutts out all day on the Mill   :D :D I think She would be more happy with You that way ;) :D ;D

Chris 

[sgschwend]

The north mill has a 2 1/4 mandrel.

[backwoods sawyer]

South mill here.
I dug out the log that I plan to use for the mills frame today. It is a 27' Doug fir that measures 16" on both ends. It was buried in behind about 300 short cherry logs that behave a lot like tooth picks when moving them with the forklift. I plan to square it up and cut two full length beams from it with no jacket boards.

[sgschwend]

North mill is about to obtain a mobile home base. 

Resizing it is the plan.

[bandmiller2]

Steve, mobil home frame should work out fine.You will need many leveling and support jacks,as any sagging or movement cannot be tolerated.My old circular mill was built on steel roof trusses with twin axles.I made the leveling jacks,get a legnth of 1" threaded rod and a box of nuts,get pieces of pipe I think I used 11/2" weld nut at bottom.Weld steel pipe couplings under the trailer frame where you want support.Make a pad for the bottom of the threaded rod and lock it by double nutting.One end of the pipe is threaded into the welded coupling, screw adjusted to level the mill.Have a good crank trailer toung jack by the hitch.When you want to move the mill rock on axle using the toung jack and unscrew levelers at the pipe couplings.Levelers must be removed for ground clearance,number them and its a simple matter to level mill when you bring it home,pull over blocks ,rock on axle ,screw in pipes.Frank C.

[Meadows Miller]

Gday

Sgschweend What Frank said to a tee  ;) ;D Thats what I used on the second large Csm frame that became the frame for the 44" table top mill  ;) untill 2 yrs ago when i changed it for fixed site work and added heaver legs  ;) ;D 8)

Chris