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DCS510 shut off after picking it off the ground

Started by MakitaCS, November 28, 2008, 04:29:10 PM

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MakitaCS

I was cutting down a small stump and laid down the 510 on its side running. When I picked it up and held it upright it turned off suddenly. It started back up. Tank was half full.

Any thoughts appreciated.
CHEVYTOWN13

zackman1801

paranoid much? :D
try it and see if it does it again set it down and then pick it back up do it a few times if it shuts off you might have a problem if not maybe it was just a coincidence? try doing a roll over test too, turn the saw on pick it up and tip it to each side point the bar up and down and see if it shuts off if not you would be good to go.
"Improvise, Adapt, OVERCOME!"
Husky 365sp 20" bar

Kevin

Could be the pick up in the tank was above the half tank of fuel when on it's side and the engine simply ran out of fuel.
Try the same thing with a full tank.

MakitaCS

I'll try that with a full tank of fuel tomorrow and report back  :P

Stopped worrying about the 510 after searching for this problem but instead read about problems that people are having with their 5100S on another forum. Man, I just bought one!



CHEVYTOWN13

ladylake

Quote from: MakitaCS on November 28, 2008, 09:12:01 PM
I'll try that with a full tank of fuel tomorrow and report back  :P

Stopped worrying about the 510 after searching for this problem but instead read about problems that people are having with their 5100S on another forum. Man, I just bought one!

Make sure it's getting enough fuel on the high side, most are set to lean thanks to the EPA, yes they will really scream adjusted lean but tend to burn up and bog easy. There is way to much emphasis placed on high RPM's these day when most saws will cut faster adjusted a little richer, but not so rich that it doesn't clean up in the cut.  Did your 510 slow down and stop or speed up and stop, slowed down it could be adjusted a little rich on the low side, speeded up would be a fuel pickup issue or could be a air leak, torn carb boot or seals.   Steve



Timberking B20  18000  hours +  Case75xt grapple + forks+8" snow bucket + dirt bucket   770 Oliver   Lots(too many) of chainsaws, Like the Echo saws and the Stihl and Husky     W5  Case loader   1  trailers  Wright sharpener     Suffolk  setter Volvo MCT125c skid loader

MakitaCS

No hesitation. I soon as I stood up right after picking it up, it turned off. It's happened before a couple of times.

One thing I do notice. After making a finished cut, it sounds like it idles high and then after a couple of seconds I can hear the idle drop off a little and then settles.

I'm going out in a bit to fill up the tank and report back.

I also found this after searching on how to tune properly.
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Small-Engines-Lawn-1746/2-cycle-engine-tuning.htm

It's the first explanation I found that I actually understand. The one thing i don't understand(I've read in other posts) is the difference in sound when they refer to 4 stroking. Idle at 4 stroke and go away at WOT to a 2 stroke sound.

I have an old craftsman I'm willing to use to learn how to tune. I don't want to fry the 510/5100.

Thank you fellas.


CHEVYTOWN13

MakitaCS

Reporting back.

It looks like it was a pick up fuel problem. The filter must have been up above the floating area and ran out of gas. Good call.

------------

But all this searching about 5100's scoring pistons led me to wonder about the 5100 that will arrive on Monday. I don't feel confident to put a drop of gas/oil to run it. 

Is their sufficient tuning allowed with the "limiter caps" on to allow a novice like me to try and achieve a good tuning? I'm not looking for the best right now, just to run it and not fry the piston.

How do shops do it with the limiter caps on? Especially in a state that has big time EPA standards. I assume they can't remove them. If I new how to tune, I'd grind them off(for the 510/6401). But I'll be using this chainsaw as my go to in a national forest to harvest wood. So I don't want to get caught with limiter caps ground down.

Off to search. Thank you for helping out with my phantom problem with the 510.
CHEVYTOWN13

beenthere

MakitaCS
I'm puzzled as to why you think you will need to do anything with the limiter caps?

I'd expect the saw would be tuned when you get it, or no?

I bought a new saw 4 years ago, and haven't had to mess with the limiter caps.  Just curious.  ::)
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

MakitaCS

As per the ethanol that is present in gasoline now a days.

I read in a thread that it is probably causing failure in 5100's because they de-tune them quite a bit because of EPA standards.

I'm just trying to learn about chainsaws.

The chainsaw addiction I have is real bad...



CHEVYTOWN13

ladylake

 They don't detune them for the EPA, they're on the edge of being to lean to keep the emmisions low and the limiter caps most time won't let you give them the little extra fuel to make them run right, a good dealer will pull the caps and adjust the saw right, some are scared to do that or don't take the time. 4 out 5 new saws I've had I had to pull the caps and every one made more torque with more fuel and none have burnt up. More fuel keeps the engine running cooler when working it hard. Makita, if you pull the caps and keep turning the high out you'll know when it starts 4 stroking, then turn it in untill it quits 4 stoking as soon as it starts cutting, you won't burn up your motor and you'll have better torque.   Steve
Timberking B20  18000  hours +  Case75xt grapple + forks+8" snow bucket + dirt bucket   770 Oliver   Lots(too many) of chainsaws, Like the Echo saws and the Stihl and Husky     W5  Case loader   1  trailers  Wright sharpener     Suffolk  setter Volvo MCT125c skid loader

MakitaCS

Sounds like a deal Steve. And I'm actually eager to try it.

I'm going to practice on my craftsman first.

Thank you.

CHEVYTOWN13

ladylake

 It's nice to have a practice saw, those Craftman saws are good for something. It's good to learn how to tune a saw, there are a lot of variables, elevation, tempeture and gas to name a few.  On the other hand I've tried tuneing newer Macs and Poulans and find it just about impossible, seems like they change every time you start them.    Steve
Timberking B20  18000  hours +  Case75xt grapple + forks+8" snow bucket + dirt bucket   770 Oliver   Lots(too many) of chainsaws, Like the Echo saws and the Stihl and Husky     W5  Case loader   1  trailers  Wright sharpener     Suffolk  setter Volvo MCT125c skid loader

MakitaCS

Speaking of variables.

I'm cutting my firewood @ around 1000'  But I gather firewood @ 6000'  I can't say I have noticed a difference running the saw at the two different elevations. But it is taking in less air @ 6000'

Is it safe to run the chainsaw at that altitude without changing the carb set-up. I'm assuming it was set up for sea-level.

Would be nice to have a fuel injected chainsaw...
CHEVYTOWN13

ladylake

 You should need to turn in the high adjuster some at 6000', less air should need less fuel making me think it might be set lean for 1000', try opening the high a little at 1000' , you might find better torque, less bogging .  If not you can put it back where it was.  Steve
Timberking B20  18000  hours +  Case75xt grapple + forks+8" snow bucket + dirt bucket   770 Oliver   Lots(too many) of chainsaws, Like the Echo saws and the Stihl and Husky     W5  Case loader   1  trailers  Wright sharpener     Suffolk  setter Volvo MCT125c skid loader

MakitaCS

Ladylake, I turn the H clockwise from where it is(factory setting)?

Do 2 stroke carbs have an adjustment for air and gas independently?

I actually don't understand the H and L. I understand S is for idle.
I think L is for the speed of the chain or how fast it responds to throttle?
Would H then control the air/gas mixture?
CHEVYTOWN13

ladylake

The L is the idle circut start at about 1-1/4 turns out (If you don't have limiters caps of if they don't work any more) then turn it in (clockwise) a little at a time untill when you give it throttle it wants to die out, then back out (counterclackwise) untill it revs up good. Then adjust the idle speed screw as needed. For the high start at 1-1/4 turns out and hold it wide open for a second or two, it shouldn't rev very high at 1-1/4 turns out, then turn in a little at a time untill it really screams, you might be down to 1/2 to 3/4 turn out by then(don't hold it wide open very long like that) then turn it back out untill it slows down noticeabally (that what's call 4 stroking) and leave it a little slower than top Rpm, Then do a test cut, the saw should blubber a little untill you start cutting, then it should quit blubbering and have good power and torque . If you are strictly useing your saw for limbing 6" and under you could turn the high in a little so it revs up faster. If doing a lot of big long cuts make sure it's rich enough as that's when they'll burn up if to lean.  Steve
Timberking B20  18000  hours +  Case75xt grapple + forks+8" snow bucket + dirt bucket   770 Oliver   Lots(too many) of chainsaws, Like the Echo saws and the Stihl and Husky     W5  Case loader   1  trailers  Wright sharpener     Suffolk  setter Volvo MCT125c skid loader

MakitaCS

Thank you Steve for the education.

I took off the filter cover and I could see the tabs clearly. They are set against each other parallel to the table top. You cannot turn them counter-clockwise any more. Only clockwise. I can see why they have to be taken off.
CHEVYTOWN13

Rocky_J

Here's a very good page describing how to adjust a chainsaw carb.  8)
All chainsaws are basically the same.
http://www.madsens1.com/saw%20carb%20tune.htm

ladylake

  You'll end up at the same settings as I described above except the low might be a little leaner if you open it up just far enough to make the saw accelerate good not useing quite as much fuel at idle. On the high side I keep all of mine a little of the rich side ( I don't mean so rich that they don't clean up in the cut) no danger of burning up and I find they cut faster with a good sharp chain with the rakers at the proper hieght or a little low to take advantage of the extra torque. Now if your running a dull chain with the rakers too high then the leaner setting will give you more RPM and cut faster than a richer setting.   Steve
Timberking B20  18000  hours +  Case75xt grapple + forks+8" snow bucket + dirt bucket   770 Oliver   Lots(too many) of chainsaws, Like the Echo saws and the Stihl and Husky     W5  Case loader   1  trailers  Wright sharpener     Suffolk  setter Volvo MCT125c skid loader

MakitaCS

CHEVYTOWN13

John Mc

Quote from: MakitaCS on November 30, 2008, 04:30:03 PM
I took off the filter cover and I could see the tabs clearly. They are set against each other parallel to the table top. You cannot turn them counter-clockwise any more. Only clockwise. I can see why they have to be taken off.

An alternative to removing them completely is to just trim them a bit. The ones on my saws are made of plastic. I was able to reach them with the small blade on my swiss army knife. Trimmed a bit of the "shoulder" off, and was able to get the adjustment I needed.

John Mc
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

MakitaCS

Trimming is a must on the 510. When I thought about it. The way they put on the caps left no room for any type of adjustment. They locked the adjustment in place. Scary because not even a slight adjustment can be made.

On the 6401, the L adjustment has no limiter cap! Only the H adjustment has the cap. Interesting.

One alarming thing I noticed though on the 510 as I was looking at the caps. I took off the filter to clean it because it looked dirty and holy smokes! The bottom inside of the plastic filter housing was gunked with what looked like dark dust. I can't believe that much foreign matter got through the air filter!!! It started to build up.

I don't see this saw lasting if that stuff is getting in...the 5100 design looks to be the same as the 510. If it's indeed the same filter, Scheiße!

Well, thank you so much for this weekend's help fellas. I have learned a lot and will mess with the craftsman first.

And I apologize for steering this thread in many directions.

CHEVYTOWN13

MakitaCS

QuoteThe L is the idle circut start at about 1-1/4 turns out (If you don't have limiters caps of if they don't work any more) then turn it in (clockwise) a little at a time untill when you give it throttle it wants to die out, then back out (counterclackwise) untill it revs up good. Then adjust the idle speed screw as needed. For the high start at 1-1/4 turns out and hold it wide open for a second or two, it shouldn't rev very high at 1-1/4 turns out, then turn in a little at a time untill it really screams, you might be down to 1/2 to 3/4 turn out by then(don't hold it wide open very long like that) then turn it back out untill it slows down noticeabally (that what's call 4 stroking) and leave it a little slower than top Rpm, Then do a test cut, the saw should blubber a little untill you start cutting, then it should quit blubbering and have good power and torque . If you are strictly useing your saw for limbing 6" and under you could turn the high in a little so it revs up faster. If doing a lot of big long cuts make sure it's rich enough as that's when they'll burn up if to lean.  Steve
http://this%20tuning%20method%20should%20be%20used%20by%20all%20in%20the%20name%20of%20the%20law!!!

Steve, thank you so much.

The 5100 came in crazy lean. The L screw was almost all the way in! I turned it 1/4 turn in and it stopped! Don't know much about 2 strokes but dang.

The H was out a couple of turns or so.

Thank you. I owe you one! Your method worked along with Rocky's knockout page. The sounds helped a ton. Knowing what was lean and what was rich.

MCS=======>5100 rumbles...
CHEVYTOWN13

Rocky_J

Glad I was able to pass along good info. I've posted that page link dozens of times but it seems most ignore it in favor of somebody's contradictory advice on the forum. I appreciate your acknowledgement that it was helpful.  :)

MakitaCS

Your link along with ladylake's advice should be a sticky in the mod/tuning section. For a novice tunner like me to use that info and get it running descent is alright with me! *DanG it screams.

It helped me to understand tremendously. I could have cooked this thing.

Many thank you's...
CHEVYTOWN13

MakitaCS

Feels like a turbo. Takes a little spooling and then BAM. Hardcore RPM's.

Only problem I felt/heard was at idle when a drop the bar down towards the floor, the idle drops a little and when i pull it back parallel to the ground, the rpm's go back to normal. Full tank of fuel.

Other than that, I hope I got it right. It's a great firewood saw.

Just a tad lighter than the 510. Descent good power. Screeeeeeams.
CHEVYTOWN13

MakitaCS

  :P

Finally.

Took a video this morning to check the tuning. The camera only caught the H setting.

Think I figured it out.

The idle sounds lower. Not as high.

Thanks again fellas big time for the help.

Dial-up may be safe.

CHEVYTOWN13

SawTroll

Quote from: MakitaCS on November 29, 2008, 01:53:49 PM....

Is their sufficient tuning allowed with the "limiter caps" on to allow a novice like me to try and achieve a good tuning? I'm not looking for the best right now, just to run it and not fry the piston.

....

In my case it was - just had to open the L a tad to improve accelleration (still nowhere like the NE346xp and MS361).......
Information collector.

MakitaCS

I had to take the caps off.
Both the 510 and the 5100's caps were set so that absolutely no adjustments could be made.
They were set against eachother. Crazy.

I don't mind the acceleration(I'll try your richenin the L).

It's majority of work will be bucking small diameter logs for firewood and felling small to medium sized trees.

The saw reminds me of a Buick Grand National.

"Big time sleeper"-small powerplant, but when it's WOT, it's crazy fast and strong.

CHEVYTOWN13

MakitaCS

I used the tach that arrived the other day on these saws yesterday and all I can say again is a sincere thank you!

The tach and your methods were a hit in my :P.

The 510 post tuning had a nice tan color to it. Slightly on the darker side but not too bad, so I know I'm really close. I put the H cap back to the factory setting and set the max RPM to 13,278. That was the max rpm that the H tab allowed and I am ok with that. It felt alright.

The 5100 was running barely rich after tuning it by ear with your methods. I had to slap my back on that one for a beginner. After using the tach, I was able to set the H setting to around 14,428. The idle is set at 2678-2768 or so. It jumps higher and lower as it idles. The plug looked good.

Again, muchas gracias.

CT
CHEVYTOWN13

Rocky_J

And we now have one more sawyer who has the knowledge and ability to tune his own carbs.  8)

When the next one comes along and asks, YOU can post the Madsen's carb tuning link!  :D

GASoline71

When I read the First post in the thread... I thought to myself that everysaw I have ever owned has done that from time to time... no biggee...

Oh well... not my saw though... :)

Gary
\"...if ya mess with the bull... ya gets the horn.\"

MakitaCS

QuoteAnd we now have one more sawyer who has the knowledge and ability to tune his own carbs.  Just a doin da Forestry Forum Boogie

When the next one comes along and asks, YOU can post the Madsen's carb tuning link!  Ya dats a good one!

You know it buddy! I have the link booked and ready to roll...Again, thanks homes. 8)
CHEVYTOWN13

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