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First timber...

Started by zopi, November 25, 2008, 06:07:25 PM

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zopi

Well, I finally got to play with some timber today, not involving a nailgun.. :D

I'm building a fake headboard for a Girl Scout parade float, and decided it's be a good place to start
playing with timber...I cut a stub tenon on one end of a 6'4" 3x6 for one of the posts and cut a through
mortise a foot down from the top...the tennon will go into a foot and allow the frame to stand on the trailer, and
the cross piece will be a pine flitch with the girl scout logo in the middle..it'll be a keyed through tennon
so the whole thing can be knocked down.

I kept cussing because I was having trouble getting the nice smooth faces you see in the books...I'm working with
carpentry chisels and no slick...I remembered a comment someone made on here about all the frames still standing which were basically hacked out with adze and axe...made me feel better..

For those who are contemplating playing in the timber...when you drill for mortises, drill the two end holes first... :D it's much easier to pare a thick spot out of the middle than out of the ends...oops..and don't drill all the way through with
the brace and bit if you are using such...simple rule I forgot, and broke a piece through...fortunately it won't be seen.

Timbers are much more fun to play with than leetle boards...something satisfying about a big solid hunk of tree.

Get yourself some corner chisels..and a slick...much less frustration I'd imagine...
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Thehardway

congratulations, sounds like you've been bitten by the timber bug!

A block of wood with some sand paper can be used when a slick is not available for cleaning up tenon faces. 
Norwood LM2000 24HP w/28' bed, Hudson Oscar 18" 32' bed, Woodmaster 718 planer,  Kubota L185D, Stihl 029, Husqvarna 550XP

zopi

Quote from: Thehardway on November 25, 2008, 07:43:36 PM
congratulations, sounds like you've been bitten by the timber bug!

A block of wood with some sand paper can be used when a slick is not available for cleaning up tenon faces. 

I was thinking about that earlier...I had a very few minutes to run into our other house and grab a very few of my galoot tools needed for this...should have picked out my big flat rasp and a block plane.

I need to throw up a lean to out back and set my forge up and make a few tools...slick, corner chisel...BHDK..Big honkin' draw knife...I restored a small hewing axe I dug up under one of my old sheds...and have another HEAVY single bit chopping axe that needs a haft...just need to unearth
a nice foot adze..<G>

The Isle of Wight County Museum re-opened awhile back..so we went through...the curator made a small error in assuming I was curious about the tool collection...wasn't curious, was lustful...but I listened to his talk...he didn't make too many errors...and I fixed those for him afterwards..<G>
Crying shame to see all those wonderful toys with helves  drying and cracking...getting rusty and dull.

I had to laugh at the collection of shipwrights tools from the early 1800's...I didn't think china was making cast steel hatchets back then...:D
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witterbound

I'm not sure about corner chisels.  Don't know any timber framer who uses one.  Any out there?  I've heard they are a pain to sharpen.

zopi

keep em sharp with a slipstone that is dressed to an acute angle on one edge...

From what I have seen they aren't intended to hog material...just trim...in my case last night, If I had drilled the holes in the correct order..i'd have had no trouble trimming the mortise corners with
a corner chisel...specially as the timber was cypress...

I scored a pair of handsaws today...a nice big ripper which is didn't surprise me that the guy said it'd work you to death...it was set like a crosscut...fine old saw too..thin back and heavy teeth, obviously manufactured by surface grinder...and another, a very lightweight little trim saw...nice and long, fine  teeth and dull as a butterknife...I'll soon put that to rights..

I'm still trying to figure out how I'm going to heat treat my one man buck...I got it a fire sale...and there is a good reason why it needs heat treated....
Got Wood?
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moonhill

I use a corner chisel.  It cleans out the corners and the 1/4" of  wood between holes.  I leave a 1/4 on some pockets  because the chips chips get bound up in the previous hole and caused the bit to turn harder.  Sharpening the corner chisel is no problem. 

Tim
This is a test, please stand by...

peter nap

Quote from: zopi on November 26, 2008, 03:14:04 PM
keep em sharp with a slipstone that is dressed to an acute angle on one edge...

From what I have seen they aren't intended to hog material...just trim...in my case last night, If I had drilled the holes in the correct order..i'd have had no trouble trimming the mortise corners with
a corner chisel...specially as the timber was cypress...

I scored a pair of handsaws today...a nice big ripper which is didn't surprise me that the guy said it'd work you to death...it was set like a crosscut...fine old saw too..thin back and heavy teeth, obviously manufactured by surface grinder...and another, a very lightweight little trim saw...nice and long, fine  teeth and dull as a butterknife...I'll soon put that to rights..

I'm still trying to figure out how I'm going to heat treat my one man buck...I got it a fire sale...and there is a good reason why it needs heat treated....

You can heat treat it the same way I used to do swords Zopi.
Dig a small trench and fill it with charcoal. Get it burning good and just lay the blade on the charcoal while using a vacuum cleaner to blow on it. You'll have to keep everything moving and have a quench tank long enough to get it all in when you reach critical. You can draw temper from the back of the blade in the same trench. Try some scrap first to get the hang of it.

I saw Roy Underhill make a corner chisel out of a bedframe once. I would guess you would have to spark test a few frames before you found one with some carbon in it.

I;m going to Williamsburg Sunday, I'll ask the blacksmith about the saw and chisel. I've found that for every question I have, they have 10 better ways.

If you ever get near Richmond on Sunday, Go to the country Peddler near the racetrack on Saturday or Sunday. They have yardsale type vendors all over the parking lot. Last year I got a Broadax, trimming hatchet and a nice Adz for 35.00 total. Almost every weekend, someone will have something. Two weeks ago I got an old saw vise. Looks like a miniture foot vise. Last weekend, I found a Stanley #5 for 7.00. I found a slick so I didn't have to make one two weeks ago. I paid .50 for it.

zopi

Cool! i'll have to check that out..

I have a saw vise...it was in one of the barns when we moved in...although i generally just
clamp the saw between a couple of boards...'s easier...

I had figured on a trench forge to do it...I must anneal the beast anyway as there is some bend in the blade...no fun fixing that...the blade is about 5' long...

I will dig up Weyger's and Bealers' and see what they have to say...i'm thinking perforated black pipe in the bottom of the hole and the blower off my propane forge...only throttled down a bunch...little sucker can move some air!

eh..I'll mess with it someday..it's not like I intend to saw alot with it...I just like my old galoot tools.

it's pretty easy to forge a corner chisel...it's the socket that takes some doing...it's a good thing I have an apprentice named Lincoln...i've got a couple of leaf springs kicking around to mess with...
Got Wood?
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Thehardway

Zopi,


I have an old PS &W corner chisel I picked up on ebay.  It is not terrible hard to sharpen.  It is laminated steel.

As for the Homemade sockets a piece of 3/4" gas or sprinkler pipe works well since socket has no need of being tempered. Slit the side at appropriate angle for taper and then weld the seam and weld it to the blade.  Here is a pic of my homemade leaf spring slick


https://forestryforum.com/gallery1/albums/userpics/10451/Slick1.jpg

Where do you hail from in VA?  I've got some old hand saws that could use a knowledgeable smithy to sharpen / set

Norwood LM2000 24HP w/28' bed, Hudson Oscar 18" 32' bed, Woodmaster 718 planer,  Kubota L185D, Stihl 029, Husqvarna 550XP

zopi

Oh...I dig that slick...good job!

I live in Isle of Wight...bout 12 miles out of Smithfield..

I can joint sharpen and set pretty much any traditional American handsaw, except the metal cut saws...teeth are too little..guess I could handset them...but I really have no experience with such a beast..it is difficult to do well and takes some experience.

I think I have located all of my handsaws that are worth a *DanG, ten at last count..and all but two are rustored and usable...one of them I found out in one of the buildings..didn't know what I had,
but found out it is either a Disston D-100 or a Disston Victory...I de-rusted it and put it back together,
have not messed with the teeth yet, but it still cuts pretty good, even for having spent the last 20
years rusting in a barn.

found G'Grandpaw's chisels and bits too..had them stashed most carefully..just couldn't remember where.

anyway..back on the original subject, I cut the matching timber to the first one last night..still a little rough..but better..alot of work with a chisel though..I think I may go rub the lamp before I get into
building anything substantial and wish for a 10" circle saw and chain mortiser..

hmm...betcha could build a chain mortiser pretty easy...electric pole pruner and some sort of plunge assembly...I'll have to noodle about that...
to set with my setter..
Got Wood?
LT-15G GO chassis added.
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And lots of junk.

Thehardway

I had the same thoughts on a home-brew chain mortiser.  I have all the pieces including some ball bearing glide posts I salvaged out of an automation system, aluminum plates to mount electric chainsaw,  for the base a three way adjustable vise like you would use to hold a piece for a drill press.  I figured this would allow fine horizontal and angle adjustment.  I ran out of time and all the parts got put in a box in the barn. 

What kind of chisels have you been using?  If they are of the proper length, sharpness and angle your mortise work should not be so difficult.  The angle and thickness of the blade seems to make a big difference to me.  The more you do the quicker and more accurate you become.  Weight and balance of mallet also becomes important.  To heavy and your chisel handle will be destroyed and your arm fatigue quickly, too light and you don't make much progress per blow and your arm tires.
Norwood LM2000 24HP w/28' bed, Hudson Oscar 18" 32' bed, Woodmaster 718 planer,  Kubota L185D, Stihl 029, Husqvarna 550XP

zopi

My chisels are Stanley...they aren't framing chisels by any means...they work ok, just winter sap slow...I really don't intend to mortise everything for a building by hand.
Got Wood?
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zopi

So I cut one of the blind mortises and put half the headboard together just now...and my conclusion is that chain mortisers must be da bomb...I can't see doing a whole structure by meself by hand..good to know I could though... it tickles me how stout that joint is...drawbored with a slightly oversized notched peg...

Has anyone ever seen a router bridge that will straddle a timber to cut reliefs and infills?

Got Wood?
LT-15G GO chassis added.
WM sharpener and setter
And lots of junk.

Thehardway

Norwood LM2000 24HP w/28' bed, Hudson Oscar 18" 32' bed, Woodmaster 718 planer,  Kubota L185D, Stihl 029, Husqvarna 550XP

zopi

Oh, jeez..no...didn't know such a thing existed...bit ridiculous..

No, I was sitting there hunched over the timber hacking out the relief cut last night and thought it'd be alot faster to walk up clamp a router bridge across the timber and zip it out...was thinking kinda like the thing used to cut hinge pockets on doors..
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witterbound

There are shops that have made homemade jigs to use plunge routers, just as you suggest.  I've seen them on the Guild's website. 

zopi

cool...I figured something like that existed...I'll wander over there and have a look..

Sure beats designing it from scratch..
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Jim_Rogers

Makita used to make one and some shops have them.

What we were doing recently is using a small router, a laminate trimmer with a straight bit in it.
And to this standard trimmer I added an offset base. To use it to cut a housing we'd do the mortise first and then saw the lines of the housing perimeter just to the depth of the housing with a skil saw and then set the trimmer to the depth of the housing.

With clamps we'd secure some temporary fences to the timber made out of simple stock such as pieces of clapboards. To make sure the trimmer didn't wander outside the saw cuts we measured the offset of the bit to the base and secured the fences 1/8" less then the offset.

So but I don't have a picture of this setup on hand. I'd have to take some.....
It works pretty good for doing simple housings.   

Jim Rogers
Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
Woodmizer 1994 LT30HDG24 with 6' Bed Extension

moonhill

Use an axe.  Unless you are going into a major production mode.  I use my axe and if it didn't have to be pretty I wouldn't even need to pick up the slick,  I do though.  The time taken to set up a jig equates to the time to chop the housing and no noise to speak of.   I often grab the head of the axe and push it like a slick to pare to the line.  I often think what tools I could get away from and what the minimum would be.  The axe would be the first on the list, to keep.     

Tim
This is a test, please stand by...

zopi

Thanks Guys! I know of a guy who has a huge router bridge...cleans up 40-50" wide table slabs with it.
Got Wood?
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And lots of junk.

Stumpkin

Quote from: zopi on December 01, 2008, 07:41:53 PM
Has anyone ever seen a router bridge that will straddle a timber to cut reliefs and infills?






The wooden frame is shimmed square to snapped center lines and screwed (or Clamped) to the timber. The  router rides on the frame and is not affected by surface of timber. Router guide is clamped to frame for straight cut at ends of housing. Takes more time to set up than it does to rout the housing, but perfect results. In the picture, I am routing for a patch over unused joinery in the hewn face of a recycled timber. In this case I wanted perfect glue lines to make the patch disappear. Keep it as light as you can, you will have to move it around a lot.

Quote from: moonhill on December 02, 2008, 06:49:15 PM
Use an axe.  Unless you are going into a major production mode.  I use my axe and if it didn't have to be pretty I wouldn't even need to pick up the slick,  I do though.  The time taken to set up a jig equates to the time to chop the housing and no noise to speak of.   I often grab the head of the axe and push it like a slick to pare to the line.  I often think what tools I could get away from and what the minimum would be.  The axe would be the first on the list, to keep.    

Tim

I use an axe to cut housings and reductions most of the time, the more I use the axe the better I get with it. An axe would be at the top of my list, also.    Tom
"Do we know what we're doing and why?"
"No"
"Do we care?"
"We'll work it all out as we go along. Let our practice form our doctrine, thus assuring precise theoretical coherence."      Ed Abbey

zopi

Thanks! that's pretty much exactly what I had in mind...Looking for a solution for when things must be pretty...otherwise I concur with the axe...

Now to impress a rich woman who can buy me a mortiser. :D
Got Wood?
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WM sharpener and setter
And lots of junk.

StorminN

OK, I'll ask it here... I know most of us have thought of it, but has anyone built their own power mortiser? If so, how about some pics?

-N.
Happiness... is a sharp saw.

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