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Which saw to use for milling?

Started by Rockfarmer, November 24, 2008, 09:11:47 AM

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Rockfarmer

Good morning guys  8) I just purchased an Alaskan mill and plan on doing some log milling. I put this in the chainsaw forum because its more about the saws than milling itself. I have two saws. The first is an old Stihl 041 Farm Boss that my Dad gave me. It runs ok but will not idle. I'm going to clean it up a bit and see if I can get it to idle. My first question is what mix should I be running in this saw? I only use quality mix (husky) but have running regular 50:1. I just noticed in the specs on chainsaw collectors that it should be 40:1, what are you guys running? The second saw is a Husky 365 that I bought new about 10 yrs ago. This saw runs mint and I depend on it to do my 10 cord a year and I cannot afford to replace it right now. I dont plan on milling a ton of wood just thought it looked like fun and would be good use of some big ol pines I have. The saws come in at 61cc and 65 cc but it seems to me that the Stihl has more power (it sure is louder!!  :D). My next question is which saw should I use for milling? I'm leaning towards the Stihl cause if I blow it up it will hurt less$. I want to try this out first before I go to far and get a huge saw for the big stuff. Ive been looking on e-bay at bigger saws and bars but dont want to make a big purchase just yet. Ive been reading through the forums for about a week now and learned a lot, THANKS  RF

timberfaller390

go with the older and more worn cause milling is very taxing on a saw and you don't want to blow up your firewood saw. call Bailey's and get you a ripping chain.
L.M. Reese Co. Land Management Contractors
Stihl MS390
John Deere 50G excavator
John Deere 5103
John Deere 440 ICD dozer

rebocardo

I used a Husky 365 on a chainsaw mill (I ran 40:1 on the gas) with a 28" bar and kept the logs to 16" for oak. Slow, but, fine as long as everything was square. I cut a decent amount of wood with the saw.

beenthere

If your 041 is like my old 041 has been, then I'd use it...it will take the abuse and keep on tickin.  ;D ;D 
I've always used the same mix of Stihl oil, since 1975, as I use in my MS361. I like the 041 as good as the new saw, but the anti-vibe and chain brake are better for me, so I use the MS361 normally.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Al_Smith

Niether saw is actually large enough to mill with .Oh they will cut but real real slow .

Best to set them a little rich because they are going to be lugging away for a long time while making ripping cuts . I won't start the oil wars again but were it I ,I would run 32 to 1 mix ratio . Do as you like though they are your saws and best of luck .

Maineloggerkid

I would go wiht the stihl out of those 2, but if it were me I would find a used 385-395xp or similiar.
JD 540D cable skidder, and 2 huskies- just right.   

Loggers- Saving the world from the wrath of trees!

Al_Smith

 Well you might call me old school but that's been said before said I'm used to it .However an older large displacement reed valve direct drive saw will make a better miller than a newer model .100 ccs or larger .

Those things were built like battleships ,large bearings ,massive crankshafts .A tad slower perhaps but able to make the sustained long runs that  milling entails . That fact plus the fact those older oiling systems put out a much better flow than most modern  systems with EPA mandates etc .Just a suggestion . :)

Again ,you have to use what you have but do so knowing the saw is going to be under sustained  load so tune accordingly .

isawlogs


I also would be going with the 041 and, I also would be using 32/1/mix .  ;)
A man does not always grow wise as he grows old , but he always grows old as he grows wise .

   Marcel

Rockfarmer

Wow guys thanks for the all the replies   :) As I said earlier I'm leaning towards the 041 myself. I got to say how suprised I am that a 30 yr old saw gets so much respect, I'm shocked  :o I played around with it today. I cleaned the air filter, changed the gas out to some fresh 40:1 husky mix (not syn). The saw ran great at high speed but would not idle. Both the screws (high and low, way in on the carb) were at 3/4 turn. I backed them out to 1 full turn. She the idled good but high speed was slower. So I'm not sure which screw is which. I'm guessing the idle adjust is the screw all by itself on the outside of the housing and the two on the carb I just dont know. I'm going to give it a shot with the 041. I got a 24" mill coming if I get a 28" bar that would give me about 23" of milling area, is that right? Basicly the widest I plan to do is 16-18" for now so should I get the 24 or 28" bar and then the rip chain? Also the chain tensioner screw is almost falling out loose and real sloppy. I cant seem to find a manual or parts diagram online. Thanks for the help guys  :)   RF

Kevin

The fuel mix is 40:1.
The upper screw is High speed and the screw for Low speed is below that, one turn out on both from a lightly seated position.
The idle speed screw is to the left and sticks out from the other two.
Make sure the air filter is clean prior to adjusting .

Rockfarmer

Thanks for that Kevin  :) I'm going to play with it some more today,.. Is a 056 mag II big enough and is it worth 350-400$ ??

Kevin

The 056 is big enough.
I run two saws, one on the mini mill for edging and a 066 for ripping.
Use the Alaskan to remove the top off the log then take both sides off using the mini mill then start milling boards.

cheyenne

Try a 32 to 1 mix and see if you notice the differance....Cheyenne
Home of the white buffalo

Rockfarmer

Quote from: Kevin on November 25, 2008, 08:57:39 AM
The 056 is big enough.
I run two saws, one on the mini mill for edging and a 066 for ripping.
Use the Alaskan to remove the top off the log then take both sides off using the mini mill then start milling boards.

That was my plan. I have an aluminum ladder i was going to lay down on the log and screw it down, supported so it doesnt bend and cut the first slab. Than I ordered the min to do the sides and the start cutting the slabs. First some 16" joists, then 2x 12"s and here and there 5/4 pine boards. I have 7 logs ready to go. The mill, bar and chain are on rubber  8)

Rockfarmer

Quote from: cheyenne on November 25, 2008, 09:07:08 PM
Try a 32 to 1 mix and see if you notice the differance....Cheyenne

2 tanks ago I was running 20:1 boat gas and it ran just fine  ;D  :D I dont think I'm as well schooled as you guyz  :D

Kevin

The first cut is most important.
If you take the time to support your ladder properly everything should go well.
It might be worth while to string it end to end.

John Mc

Quote from: Rockfarmer on November 25, 2008, 09:22:29 PM
2 tanks ago I was running 20:1 boat gas and it ran just fine  ;D  :D I dont think I'm as well schooled as you guyz  :D

I've been told that the mix oil used in boat motors is not good for chainsaw use: it won't take the heat of a chainsaw engine. I don't know for a fact this is true, but it makes sense. Most outboard boat motors are water cooled, and are not tweaked to run flat out like a chainsaw does. Anyone have some real facts on this?

John Mc
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

pineywoods

Quote from: John Mc on November 26, 2008, 09:23:24 AM
Quote from: Rockfarmer on November 25, 2008, 09:22:29 PM
2 tanks ago I was running 20:1 boat gas and it ran just fine  ;D  :D I dont think I'm as well schooled as you guyz  :D

I've been told that the mix oil used in boat motors is not good for chainsaw use: it won't take the heat of a chainsaw engine. I don't know for a fact this is true, but it makes sense. Most outboard boat motors are water cooled, and are not tweaked to run flat out like a chainsaw does. Anyone have some real facts on this?

John Mc

Not a good idea. Cost me a jug and piston on my 028 AV
1995 Wood Mizer LT 40, Liquid cooled kawasaki,homebuilt hydraulics. Homebuilt solar dry kiln.  Woodmaster 718 planner, Kubota M4700 with homemade forks and winch, stihl  028, 029, Ms390
100k bd ft club.Charter member of The Grumpy old Men

Kevin

You can use it if you change the mix ratio but I wouldn't recommend it.

Al_Smith

That old 20 to 1 or even 16 to 1 ratio for boatmotors was in the days of using motor oil as a mix oil . They ran fine but they didn't run as fast either .

Modern mix oil 40 to 1 is fine .Just a few of us oldsters prefer 32 to 1 ,not a big deal either way .

Rockfarmer

You guys are right  ;D I wont do it again  ;D Its just so tempting cause I got gals of the stuff sitting around. I just came back from the Husky dealer and got some bar oil  :o 15$ a gal  :o No I wont mix it with waste oil but its tempting cause I got 100 gals of that too  ;D I might cut it with some cheapo poulan oil though  ;D The girls are cooking in the kitchen and they kicked me out of there  >:( got to go kill some more trees  8)

Al_Smith

Quote from: Rockfarmer on November 26, 2008, 02:33:23 PM
You guys are right  ;D I wont do it again  ;D Its just so tempting cause I got gals of the stuff sitting around. I just came back from the Husky dealer and got some bar oil  :o 15$ a gal  :o   
Say what ,15 US dollars for one US gallon ? Good heavens .

Well ,it must be good stuff . :D

Captain

There is absolutely a difference in 2 stroke oils (TC vs TC-W or TC-W3).  Below is an excerpt from a ultralight aircraft website that explains it better than I can :

There are several oils for an ultralight pilot to select from, and everybody has their favorite. Others are confused about claims as to which one they should use and why.
How about oil injected versus the common fuel and oil pre-mix? What the difference between an oil formulate for water-cooled engines and an oil made for air-cooled engines?

To understand how two-cycle oils work in your engine, we need to cover some basic training on engine operating conditions and oil formulation.

Outboard engines are characterized by their constant speed, high output operation. They are usually set at a desired high speed and continue at speed until the destination is reached and then throttled down. Also, they are constantly cooled with fresh, cool, non-recirculated water. Chain saws, on the other hand, are a high action operation. They are constantly started and stopped, used for short periods and frequent overloads are its hard place in life.

Additionally they have smaller displacements than outboards and are air-cooled. By understanding how the operation of an engine can affect the oil used and how an oil can affect the engine, we can better appreciate the difference between a water cooled two-cycle oil and one formulated for an air-cooled two-cycle engine.

Water-cooled two-cycle engine oils require higher levels of a heavy oil to prevent piston and cylinder wall scuffing. Because of their high average piston temperature, lighter oils evaporate too quickly from the piston cylinder contact area. The heavy base oil, which vaporizes at very high temperatures, resists evaporation and remains in place to provide lubrication to the piston and cylinder. Air-cooled oil formulations must have much lower levels of the heavy base oil than water-cooled engine oils.

These oils require only a small amount of heavy oil to pro vide protection against piston scuffing and seizure at peak temperatures. Heavy levels of heavy base oils in an oil formulated for air-cooled engines can cause engines deposits.

These deposits form as a result of incomplete burning of the heavy oil. The deposits can cause piston ring sticking and can eventually plug or disrupt the flow of the exhaust system, resulting in power loss and possible engine damage. Detergent additives should not be used in water-cooled two-cycle oil formulations. When burned with the fuel, detergents can produce an ash deposit in the cylinders. This ash deposit can possibly foul spark plugs, form exhaust port deposits which cause loss of power, and possibly create cylinder hot spots that can cause destructive pre-ignition.

On the other hand, the only way to protect air- cooled two-cycle engines against piston ring sticking at their high peak temperatures is to include some detergent additives in the oil formulation. Detergents

provide high temperature deposit control not available from other additives used in the oil. However, in the air-cooled engine, any ash deposits that could form from the detergents are dislodged by engine vibration and exhausted from the engine.

Now is a good time for a lesson on ash. Ash is the non-combustible residue of a lubrication oil or fuel. Detergent additives contain metallic derivatives, such as calcium, barium and magnesium sulfonates that are common sources of ash. Ash deposits can impair engine efficiency and power.

But, detergents are an important component of engine oil that help control varnish deposits, piston ring deposits and rust (yes, rust) by keeping insoluble combustion particles from adhering to metal surfaces. In some cases, detergents neutralize acids formed from combustion of the fuel mixture. Ash deposits may have a grayish color, whereas carbon residue is usually black and sooty.

Carbon residue, on the other hand, is different from ash. Carbon residue is formed from unburned and partially burned fuel, and from burning of the crankcase lubricant. Water from condensation of combustion products along with carbon residue from fuel contribute to engine piston deposits. Carbon de posits are normally black and have a sooty appearance.

Oils formulated for outboard engines require a large amount of antioxidant and dispersant additives to control deposit formation since these oils do not contain detergents. Outboard oils also contain a large amount of rust inhibitors because an outboard engine's continuous contact with water makes rust prevention an important requirement.
Air-cooled oils contain lower amounts of antioxidants and dispersants, since the detergent additives do most of the work of preventing deposit accumulation. These oils also contain rust inhibitor additives to protect against rust that can form from water that enters the engine due to condensation.

So, how do some oils claim to be multi-purpose or formulated for water and air-cooled engines? These oils have usually been formulated to meet the National Marine Manufacturers Association (N M MA) TC-WI I TM or TC-W3 TM specification. These specifications require the oils be tested under rigorous test conditions. An air-cooled engine test is part of these requirements.

Therefore, a manufacturer can claim multi-purpose applications. Although these oils have been tested in an air-cooled engine and will lubricate an air-cooled engine, an oil formulated specifically for air-cooled engine use may be the best choice for your engine. 

Just what oil does Rotax recommend for their two- cycle engines? Rotax recommends using an oil meeting American Petroleum Institute (API) Service Classification TC. API TC is a designation for high performance two-cycle engines (typically 50 to 500 cc) excluding outboard engines. This performance rating is determined by engine tests that evaluate (1) anti-scuff characteristics, (2) piston ring sticking and engine cleanliness, and (3) pre-ignition. In the TC category, a 50 cc and a 350 cc Yamaha engine are used to evaluate the oil.

Engines that require the fuel and oil to be pre mixed should use a two percent (50:1) concentration of oil in the fuel. It is very important that the fuel/oil mix is correct. In other words, don't add too much or too little oil to the fuel. If a little does good, more oil added to the fuel doesn't necessarily do better. In fact, too much oil will lead to excessive deposits and could also cause excessive exhaust smoke and spark plug fouling. Not enough oil can lead to piston skirt and cylinder wall scuffing and eventual engine damage.

Gasoline containing alcohol (ethanol and/or methanol) should not be used unless permitted by the engine manufacturer. Alcohol-containing fuels can absorb water and separate from the gasoline. Additionally, the alcohol may not be compatible with some fuel system components, such as plastic and rubber compounds.

Rotax also recommends "de-carboning" the engine after every 50 hours of operation. This procedure is designed to remove excessive piston deposits to check for possible stuck piston rings. Rotax allows up to 0.040 inches of soot and carbon buildup on the pis ton crown before removal of the carbon is required. Not only does Rotax recommend an API TC oil for the 447 and 503 air-cooled engines, but also for the 532 and 582 engines run at internal temperatures similar to the air-cooled Rotax engines, as evidenced by their use of the same spark plug.

Special precautions should be taken when switching oils, even between the same brands. Because of the special formulation of air-cooled engine oil, these oils generally are not compatible with water-cooled engine oils. Caution should be exercised to ensure that these products are not mixed together. Special precautions should be taken when changing from a product designed primarily for water-cooled engines to an air-cooled product, particularly in oil injection systems where the undiluted oils would be mixed together. It is recommended that the oil reservoir and lines be drained when changing to another formulation. In applications where the oil is premixed with the fuel, it is recommended the fuel tank(s) be drained and filters changed.

By Charles Kudolis (Excerpted from EXPERIMENTER, April, 1994)




Rockfarmer

Wow Capt, thanks for that! I do have an old Rotax 503 in the cellar somewhere collecting dust  :D Those ultralight motors are pretty cool with the twin plugs and all. I'd like to have that on one of my old sleds  ;D

Rockfarmer

I did some more cutting with the 041 FB yesterday. I got the saw to idle nice  8) After it got dark I put it on the bench and cleaned it out good and noticed one of my exhaust port muffler screws was backed out about 1/4"  :o I tighten'd that up. I also figured out that the bar adjuster has a notch that should ride on the case of the saw, it wasn't. To get that right the bar studs had to be backed out for the thin plate to come off. I took that off and blew it out good. I put the air nozzle into the bar stud hole and  :o :o :o boom, got a facefull of bar oil  :o ;D ;D It went everywhere. Good thing I had my safety glasses on  ;D (now I know not to do that :D) got it all back together, turned up the oil, tested it, all good!!!!  8)

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