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My county says I need a permit

Started by timberfaller390, November 20, 2008, 03:09:13 PM

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timberfaller390

I read an article in the paper the other day that listed several new ordinances our county commissioners voted in. The list included such things as a barking dog ordinance meaning if your dog talks too much you'll get a fine and if your grass is too tall we'll fine you (this after they laid off most of the road crew and you can't see to pull out of certain roads because the county's grass is too tall) and last "you will have to get a special use permit to operate a sawmill in the county". This is odd because we only have 1 sawmill besides me in the county and they have been in business for 20 years. I finally got around to calling about it and told a little white lie and said I have been in business for 2 years (prove otherwise) and was told that I was "pretty much" grandfathered in, which means "your okay until we decide to lower the boom on you". They said I should probably go ahead and apply for the permit so there is no question. I asked what I needed to do and they said its a $2000.00  :o application fee (non refundable) then the board of commissioners has to approve it. You would think they would make it easy for new business and industry to come into the area. :-\ Has anybody else had to go through with such foolishness
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Mr Mom

I have read or heard of things like this happening and the out come is not pretty.
Is this the county or township or the city??
If it is the county your in big trouble.

Thanks Alot Mr Mom

SwampDonkey

Good heavens, pretty soon you'll need a permit to pith behind the barn.  >:(
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

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timberfaller390

It is in the county. The ordinance does not explain what constitutes a sawmill, I think because the county thinks all sawmills are created equal. To me a sawmill is anything that turns logs into lumber. A chainsaw mill for instance is not going to give enough production for someone to make a living but it is still a sawmill. I have a woodmizer copy that is all hydraulic and could make a living with it. They do not say what they consider a sawmill it just says sawmill.
L.M. Reese Co. Land Management Contractors
Stihl MS390
John Deere 50G excavator
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John Deere 440 ICD dozer

zopi

Do some research, find out what services they intend to provide for taxing your particular business...since they seem to be singling you and the other fellow out, find out what other
small and unique business gets hit for protection money...and start agitiating around election time...

I'd keep all that information in reserve for when they DO try to lower the boom on you..and remember you were here before the law..Ex post facto...Latin for "Get Bent Copper."

you can very well bet that the next election that comes up in my county I will speak out loud and long against anyone in this county who is incumbent...the politics (many bloodsucking insects)
in this place is ridiculous..
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timberfaller390

Quote from: zopi on November 20, 2008, 04:17:00 PM
you can very well bet that the next election that comes up in my county I will speak out loud and long against anyone in this county who is incumbent...the politics (many bloodsucking insects)
in this place is ridiculous..
You got that right. I can't say that they are singling us out because they say we are "grandfathered" in but also say we should apply so there is no question. What I can't figure out is why they think they need to regulate an industry that is almost non existant, and what about a small manual mill in the backyard or even a chainsaw mill? They don't say if that requires a permit or not. Also my county does not require a business liscense so how can they require this?
L.M. Reese Co. Land Management Contractors
Stihl MS390
John Deere 50G excavator
John Deere 5103
John Deere 440 ICD dozer

Dodgy Loner

"We are all very ignorant, but not all ignorant of the same things."

Your county commissioners are probably ignorant of what constitutes a sawmill.  The elections are over, so complaining will likely get you nowhere.  Your best bet is to educate them.  Explain to them the hardships that their policy could cause to you and the people of Catoosa County.  Offer them a tour of your mill.  They may have an image of an automated pine mill spitting out hundreds of 2x4s per minute.  Get them to consider what would happen to the trees that are cleared to make way for homes and businesses if there weren't any mills to take the logs to.  Obviously, I don't know your situation - how much lumber you saw, where you get your logs from, and who you sell your lumber to - but I do know that you are in a position to make a difference in your community.  Just because people are ignorant, doesn't mean they are unreasonable.  Educate them.

Or...operate under the radar and hope they don't catch up to you ;)
"There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey." -John Ruskin

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pigman

Quote from: zopi on November 20, 2008, 04:17:00 PM
Do some research, find out what services they intend to provide for taxing your particular business

They probably intend to increase the commissioners pay. :(
Things turn out best for people who make the best of how things turn out.

metalspinner

Sounds like somebody somewhere got pithed off and is doing an end around to get you...or the other guy. >:(  Have any of your neighbors been complaining? ...but you're grandfathered in.  ???  Seems weird to me - to be so specific about a certain business or hobby. :-\  maybe the other guy has a BIL on the council and is trying to squeeze out new competition. ;)

Go ask the person that wrote up the ordinance.
I do what the little voices in my wife's head tell me to do.

Tom

Before I got started, there were sawmills in most every backyard.   All the farmers had one.  Then the county started permitting and taxing sawmills and sheds, etc.  The farmers shut their mills down.  When I got my mill, there were only a couple of sawmills left in the county.  

People had quit sawing their own lumber and had to buy it in the lumberyards.  I started trying to get people to saw again and had great success, only to find that the county then proposed stumbling blocks in the way of taxes on equipment, building codes, permits and the DOT got involved with Federal licenses, and the State got involved with sales tax and Use taxes.  

I'm convinced more than ever that the purpose of Government, from the community to the the Feds, is to stop citizens from doing what they want.  It's not always about safety, codes, etc. It's about money.

We had a flurry of sawmills and now they are diminishing again.  We lost most all of our farmers and the land is being turned into single family housing.  That is a tax boost for the county of ungodly proportions.  It's the money.  

What I don't understand is that the people who are representing us in Government were as concerned over these types of things, before being elected, as we are today.  After being elected, they ignore their constituency and begin treating the city and county as if it were a profit making business and we, the citizens, are a captured customer base.   Where do they get off acting like that?  The only thing can contribute it to, other than their interest of making a fast buck somehow, is the complacency of the voting public.  Few vote.  Many of those who do, don't take the time to learn what they are voting for.   The Government even makes it more difficult by turning the explanations for the items on the ballot into double talk and legalese.  Voters are constantly concerned as to whether their No vote means Yes, or their Yes vote means No.

I've come upon an almost fail safe rule.  I don't vote for any new taxes...period... and I don't vote for any changes to the State Constitution... Period.  That is if I can figure out what the "no" vote really is.

My justification comes from the realization that the State worked just fine with the Constitution as it is.  And the Government doesn't need more money, it needs to quit throwing away the money it takes now.

I follow that rule to the point of Belligerency.

I also don't unseat a judge, or Bureaucrat, just because there is an opponent.  I wouldn't want to have my job threatened just because someone applied for it.  If the Judge isn't doing a good job, we would know about it.

I don't necessarily vote for an incumbent either.  The last term allowed of an elected official is just permission for him to do as he wants.  He knows he isn't going to be able to run again anyway.  Who is there to please, and why?

Vote that sucker out before he thinks he's omnipotent and get somebody who is hungry.

timberfaller390

There are no neighbors to complain (I'm kin to all the neighbors) as for the other guy I am not really compition to him cause he cuts grade stakes and wedges exclusivly and our families have known each other for years.
Quote from: metalspinner on November 20, 2008, 05:26:09 PM
Seems weird to me - to be so specific about a certain business or hobby.
Go ask the person that wrote up the ordinance.
Thats something else that is weird, I had to talk to 3 different people before I found someone that knew what I as talking about.
Quote from: Dodgy Loner on November 20, 2008, 04:42:06 PM
Or...operate under the radar and hope they don't catch up to you ;)
Thats kinda what I'm doing for now. My thought is "it's my property I own it hell deep and heaven high and I'll do what I want on it".
L.M. Reese Co. Land Management Contractors
Stihl MS390
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zopi

Quote from: timberfaller390 on November 20, 2008, 04:34:34 PM
Quote from: zopi on November 20, 2008, 04:17:00 PM
you can very well bet that the next election that comes up in my county I will speak out loud and long against anyone in this county who is incumbent...the politics (many bloodsucking insects)
in this place is ridiculous..
You got that right. I can't say that they are singling us out because they say we are "grandfathered" in but also say we should apply so there is no question. What I can't figure out is why they think they need to regulate an industry that is almost non existant, and what about a small manual mill in the backyard or even a chainsaw mill? They don't say if that requires a permit or not. Also my county does not require a business liscense so how can they require this?

I don't personally believe you ought to apply for squat...that's like volunteering to pay the *DanG fee...either you are grandfathered or you are not...but don't volunteer yourself...christ I hate the government sometimes....scratch that..I hate bureauRats all the time...

I better kwit...this stuff spins me up faster'n a jet engine...our county commissioners here are
like sumpin' icky came out of a dogs hind end...and got run over by the mower..
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SwampDonkey

Or on the tire of the pickup?  ::)  :D :D
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1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Brad_S.

Well, I'm no fan of government rules and regulations, but I'll play the role of devil's advocate for a second. Most laws like this result from a bad experience somewhere. There may have been sawmill issues in some town on the other side of the state that raised a ruckus. Possibly, your county commissioners, having seen that episode, decided to be pro-active and (use your best Barney Fife voice here) nip it.....nip it in the bud.
That's the case with a lot of towns regarding wind turbines. Towns located where there isn't even a good wind source are passing rules against turbines in their towns just to prevent the possibility of that ever happening after seeing the confrontations in other towns.
As long as they said you were grandfathered, I wouldn't do anything different than what you were already doing.

"Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans." J. Lennon

zopi

which IMO traslates to knee jerk reactions preventing progress...the stupid rule might prevent something bad, but it is more likely that they will prevent good things too...oh I'd love to be in a town that prohibits wind turbines and all of a sudden the county school wants to put one in .....ooooohhhhh no! NOT YOURS!

I am so glad I live in the country. I'd like to keep it that way. <G>
Got Wood?
LT-15G GO chassis added.
WM sharpener and setter
And lots of junk.

Brad_S.

Least my post be misinterpreted, I agree Zopi, knee jerk indeed. I just meant to say that I doubt they are specifically targeting timberfaller390 or the other mill in town with the ordinance if they haven't hassled them in the past.
"Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans." J. Lennon

shooshine_Jonnie

sorry this is my first post but I couldn't resist.

First read the law and all of the definition etc.  The whole thing.  Most of the time its all BS and posturing and doesn't mean a thing.  If it actually means what it says than check it up against the constitution of the US and your state.

Second.  Ignore it and tell em where to get bent.
   They cannot tax a certain activity more than another.

And if you really want to know the money you make with your sawmill ain't none of their business and they don't have a right to ANY i repeat Any of it.  Ask me how I know and I will send you a PM.

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timberfaller390

I really don't think we are being targeted I think it's more "how can we make more money?" I still am having trouble figuring out why they chose sawmills a two company industry to add this special use permit BS to. They didn't even know I exsited until I talked to them. I was very vague about where I am and never said who I was so really they still don't know anything about me or where I am.
L.M. Reese Co. Land Management Contractors
Stihl MS390
John Deere 50G excavator
John Deere 5103
John Deere 440 ICD dozer

zopi

Quote from: Brad_S. on November 20, 2008, 08:31:41 PM
Least my post be misinterpreted, I agree Zopi, knee jerk indeed. I just meant to say that I doubt they are specifically targeting timberfaller390 or the other mill in town with the ordinance if they haven't hassled them in the past.

wuzzn't pokin' atcha...too much gubmint is more irritating than jock itch...I generally stay out of these threads...got sucked in I guess...
Got Wood?
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Tim L

you said a mouthful Tom. I couldn't agree more !
Do the best you can and don't look back

thedeeredude

Quote from: zopi on November 20, 2008, 09:24:30 PM
wuzzn't pokin' atcha...too much gubmint is more irritating than jock itch...I generally stay out of these threads...got sucked in I guess...

New, extra strength lamasil for politicians!

zopi

tanker truck full of preparation H maybe...


So, what does preparation I do?

Nevermind..
Got Wood?
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WM sharpener and setter
And lots of junk.

ladylake

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Ironwood

That "application fee" is bording on ridiculus. Seems more punitive than anything. I wonder if it came down to it you could fight the high fee in court? They might have to provide documentation as so why it is so exorbanat (sic).  Nuts, just like the "only two unregistered cars on your property"  International Construction Code, what the @#$% does that have to do with good construction?

                 Ironwood
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Dodgy Loner

I don't like Washington politicians any more than y'all, but for most folks who live in a rural county, the county commissioners are just your neighbors.  The chairman of my county commission is my next-door neighbor, a cattle farmer who got tired of all the pro-development attitudes in the county and decided to do something about it.  He's a nice fellow and he listens a lot more than he talks.  Another one of our commissioners is the father of one of our 4-Hers on the shooting sports team (I'm the county extension coordinator and in charge of our 4-H program).  The son is a very polite young man and his father comes to every practice to help coach other kids.  I know in some areas corruption is rampant, but I like to think that's the minority.  Most rural county commissioners don't do things just to be jerks. 

That being said, I sure as heck don't ask for a building permit for every shed I put up, and I wouldn't blame you a bit if you don't ask for a permit for your sawmill.  I just don't think it's fair to conjecture as to why the law was passed if you don't even try to find out.  You could be bad-mouthing some very nice (but ignorant) people.
"There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey." -John Ruskin

Any idiot can write a woodworking blog. Here's mine.

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