fireplace problem

timberfaller390 · October 29, 2008, 09:24:54 PM

I have lived in the same double wide "trailer" since I was born and for as long as I can remember smoke would rool out of the fireplace if you left the glass doors open, as long as they are shut every thing is fine. It has an air circulation system also that pulls in cool air from the room at the bottom of the fireplace circulates around the "firebox" is heated and is supposed to come back out a the top. If the doors are open smoke also comes out these top vents. This circulation system has never worked right in my opinion cause the heated air that is supposed to be coming out the top vents is barely noticible. So my problems are:
1. smoke coming out when doors are open. YES I checked the flue and chimney.
2. smoke coming out the "heater" vents if fire place doors are open.
3. circulation system blowing out VERY little warm/hot air.
The fireplace is in the middle of the house and has a stovepipe type of chimney. This has been a problem for as long as I can remember, we just always worked around it by leaving the doors shut except to put in more wood.

cheyenne · October 29, 2008, 09:57:23 PM

Does it ever puff smoke with the doors closed & what kind of stove, catalyst or non......Cheyenne

Warbird · October 29, 2008, 10:06:37 PM

Pipe a fresh air intake to it from outside, if possible. My wood stove will leak smoke into the house when I am stoking it. Sign of a tight house, IMO.

pigman · October 29, 2008, 10:22:55 PM

I don't no what to tell you except those prefab fireplaces are nice to look at, but are almost useless at heating a house. I had one a long time ago that did not smoke; had a outside air intake; but would just burn up wood with very little heat. I through the thing out and just put in a stove. Now I can heat the whole house with 1/2 as much wood.

Warbird · October 29, 2008, 10:26:36 PM

My experience is similar to pigman's. This house had a prefab fireplace in it that was about worthless. Ripped it out and replaced it with a catalytic wood stove and piped an outside air intake directly to its intake. Best move I ever made for heating this place.

Mooseherder · October 29, 2008, 10:35:20 PM

Quote from: Warbird on October 29, 2008, 10:26:36 PM
My experience is similar to pigman's. This house had a prefab fireplace in it that was about worthless. Ripped it out and replaced it with a catalytic wood stove and piped an outside air intake directly to its intake. Best move I ever made for heating this place.

Where is the safest entry point or place to put an air inlet to access the stove. My Camp Stove is just terrible for smoke and I'd try this before replacing it. ;)

pigman · October 29, 2008, 10:45:58 PM

Glenn, my "fake" fireplace had built in 6"dia. furnace pipes that went down to the crawl space and out to the outside wall of the house with a screen on the inlet to keep the critters out. That part worked fine, just wouldn't put out any heat.

Warbird · October 29, 2008, 11:17:34 PM

Mooseherder, it depends on your setup. The old setup we had was somewhat similar to pigman's except it wasn't piped to the outside. It was done very poorly.

Here is how I engineered our current setup:

First, here is our stove on the new hearth (yeah, I know, still need to finish the hickory trim along the back walls).

Here is the air intake that comes up through the floor from the crawl space. It continues through the crawl space to an outside wall. The hole in the outside wall has a dryer vent type of grill on it to keep birds out. The ducting is 3".

And here is where it directly connects to the wood stove. I had to buy the 3" round to square converter that the ducting connects to.

A friend of mine has a wood stove that does not have a direct connect for combustion air like my stove. In his case, they simply determined where the stoves draws in its combustion air and they placed a vent in the floor as close as they could. They then piped that vent to outside air.

Having an air intake piped directly to your stove can vastly improve efficiency and may possibly help with the draw.

Hope this helps.

timberfaller390 · October 29, 2008, 11:34:00 PM

Quote from: cheyenne on October 29, 2008, 09:57:23 PM
Does it ever puff smoke with the doors closed & what kind of stove, catalyst or non......Cheyenne

I don't have a stove, it is a fireplace that has glass doors that can be slid open and closed. I am not really using it for heat but filling the house with smoke every time you add another stick of wood is a pain to say the least

Sprucegum · October 29, 2008, 11:50:04 PM

I have a fireplace with glass doors and piped in air for combustion. It heats the house real good.
When I open the doors to add more wood I gotta open REAL SLOOOW or I get a puff of smoke in the room :( It seems the draft needs a chance to switch from piped in to room air.

If the wind is blowing the right direction when I first light the fire I will get a down draft and fill the whole Dang house full of smoke. Then the smoke comes out of the circulating fan vents top and bottom as well as out the doors >:( :'(

Warbird · October 29, 2008, 11:59:50 PM

We have a HEPA air cleaner that sits in the same 750 sq ft room the stove is in. If it smokes up inside the house, I just turn that thing on high for about 10 minutes. Cleans things up right quick.

bck · October 30, 2008, 12:37:03 AM

I was having a problem with smoke too, especially on windy days. I added another section of flue to the height of the chimney. problem dissappeared.

Mooseherder · October 30, 2008, 06:31:10 AM

Warbird, Great explanation and nice pics.

At which point of the stove (high or low) would the connection to the air duct be?
Was the stove designed for a connection to the outside or did you access a panel?

I would try this if I can keep it safe, otherwise this stove is gonna end up in a Cook Shack. Here is our camp set-up. It is also unfinished. :D

SwampDonkey · October 30, 2008, 06:45:58 AM

bck hit on what I was going to suggest. Check the height of the flu. Is it above the peek by at least 3 feet?

jdtuttle · October 30, 2008, 06:56:22 AM

1. smoke coming out when doors are open. YES I checked the flue and chimney.
2. smoke coming out the "heater" vents if fire place doors are open.
3. circulation system blowing out VERY little warm/hot air.

1. Check chimney height. It should be 2' above the roof line or you cold get downdrafts.
2. This one scares me. If there is smoke coming out the heat vents you could have a leak from the fire chamber. Make sure you have a carbon monoxide detector.
3. Check the air intake on the blower. There is usually a screen there & it sometimes gets filled with lint and won't work properly.
Good Luck,
Jim

Roxie · October 30, 2008, 08:41:17 AM

Quote from: bck on October 30, 2008, 12:37:03 AM
I was having a problem with smoke too, especially on windy days. I added another section of flue to the height of the chimney. problem dissappeared.

Yep...

sharp edge · October 30, 2008, 10:45:02 AM

Make sure chimney is clean.

Piping in make-up-air to the heater keeps down cold drafts in a house. I think its better to burn house air and put make-up air (fresh) air in house, takes the same b.t.u. either way. Most stoves are built to burn house air., but sales people say it burns out side air, becuse that is what people want to hear. Heated the house for 30 years with a fireplace.

To all--- be carefull and don,t burn your house down. That happen a lot last time and Ins. went sky high.

Warbird · October 30, 2008, 10:52:56 AM

mooseherder, that's a great looking cabin. I think I spotted what may be part of your problem. Your stack pulls an immediate 90 and goes out through your wall. I've never had that kind of setup but have heard from plenty of folks who have that it can be prone to draft problems. How high is the stack outside, once through the wall? What bck said about stack height is absolutely correct for a standard setup. Not certain if increasing the height would help with that setup or not.

To answer your question about the combustion air intake, every stove is different. The intake on mine is easily accessible, on the back of the stove, about 1/3 of the way up. All I had to buy and put on was the rectangle to 3" round converter that the 3" ducting hooks to. If that is not hooked up, then the stove draws combustion air through that rectangle, directly from the house (which drastically reduces efficiency).

Do you know the brand and model of the stove? We could try finding the specs for it to see where it draws at. Something quick and easy you could do is open that window to the right, before you stoke the fire, and open the stove door very slowly, then close the window when done. Might help a bit. If your cabin has electricity, you could also see if there is a draft induction kit that would work on it.

jdtuttle, if the setup timberfaller390 has told us about is anything like my old setup was, there isn't really a "blower". The 'blowing' works by simple movement of air as the fireplace heats up. Cool air is drawn in at the bottom of the fireplace and warm air is pushed out the upper vents he told us about.

timberfaller390, you might also try opening a window close to the fireplace, before opening the doors to the fireplace. Outside of heightening the chimney, you might also see if there is a draft inducer available that would work for your setup. Kinda doubt it, but you never know.

timberfaller390 · October 30, 2008, 11:28:54 AM

okay guys I tore into the fireplace this morning and heres what I found:
warbird, there is actually 2 VERY small fans in the bottom that are supposed to circulate air but they are too small to ever do much of anything. I'm okay with that cause at least now I know why it doesn't work worth a *DanG.
jdtuttle, the more I look at this the more I think it is a draft problem, I will climb up on the roof today and do a little measuring.

Mooseherder · October 30, 2008, 04:53:35 PM

Sorry for high-jackjing your thread tf. ;D
Here is a picture of the back of the Camp. A dozen or so Aspens on the left have been removed since this picture was taken. Unfortunately it doesn't show the top of the stack but looking at it, it isn't too much higher than what is showing. I think a higher stack with a different type cap are in order. :D
I never did care for that 90 degree turn either and I have 2 of them! :(
That is probably my biggest problem.
The Pipe looks to be super clean. When we accessed the cleanout there was very minimal debris.

pigman · October 30, 2008, 06:23:57 PM

Mooseherder, on my triple wall pipe, I get very little debris at the bottom of the pipe, but I do get build up on the insides of the pipe higher up. I have to get on the roof and run a round wire brush down the pipe to clear out the build up every few weeks so the stove doesn't smoke when I open the door. I suppose if I only used seasoned wood I would get less build up, but I never plan that far ahead. :

Warbird · October 30, 2008, 07:18:47 PM

I've been thinking about removing the 'cap' at the top of my chimney. Have heard that removing it can sometimes greatly improve the draw but if there is a wind storm, not having the cap could smoke you out.

I hesitate to recommend cap removal as a solution to anyone else. Any thoughts on this?

cheyenne · October 30, 2008, 07:23:48 PM

I tend to agree it may be a draft problem. Try cracking a window a couple of inchs to induce fresh air into the room & see what happens. Smoke coming out of the heater vents baffles me. It may be there were gaskets that have burned away or never installed or mounting screws that have done the same or warpage from heat creating a gap. Either way your in for a major tear down to solve the problem, better safe than sorry. You can always put higher speed fans in. Good luck.....Cheyenne

SwampDonkey · October 30, 2008, 07:25:45 PM

I have a brick flu. No cap here, no smoke. All the wind does for me is fan the flames. :D

bck · October 30, 2008, 10:00:21 PM

Warbird , I can think of 7 different places I have either lived or had a cabinet shop and burned wood and none of them has ever had a cap. With the exception of the current one I am using which I added height to I have never had a problem with smoke on windy days. Not having a cap seems to cause pipe to need changing probably quicker than it would if it was a cap. I change pipe every two years.
As for the height mine was just a couple inches under 2' above rooftop and was giving trouble on windy days. It is now in the ball park of 3 1/2', much better.