iDRY Vacuum Kilns

Sponsors:

Tops in a woodlot.

Started by Timbercrk1, October 25, 2008, 08:09:25 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Timbercrk1

Once a logger comes in and removes his saw logs. How long are the tops on the ground good for to be salvaged for good firewood?? Also with a 1000bf is it true you can typically get 2-3 cords of firewood? Didn't know exact rule or estimate? Any help would be appreciated. Thanks, Ray   ???

Ron Wenrich

I'd say you would have a couple of years to recover the firewood.  The smaller branches and the fines are the first to rot.  A lot is dependent on species.  If you're talking softwoods, then you have less time.

A good rule of thumb is 1 cord per 1000bf of the harvest volume.  A lot depends on the efficiency of the logger.  If he is cutting for pulpwood or firewood, the residual might be a lot less.  If he's cutting only for sawlogs, then you'll get that amount.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

SwampDonkey

If he's cutting for pulpwood there will be almost no firewood, unless you plan on gathering alder sized limbs, and will take a lot more timber volume then 1000 bf to have enough limb wood left for stove wood. I understand that is a world of difference than just cutting for saw logs. As Ron indicated, if your cutting for just the logs, there is a lot more wood from where the last log was bucked, from there up into the major limbs. Up here those big limbs go as pulp down to 3.5". There would be no furnace wood unless he's cutting the junk timber to for that purpose, and again it would also go as pulp if there was market for hardwood pulp. So basically, your question is pretty loaded when we don't know your markets and total utilization.  Well, maybe we do. Just logs?

Up in my neck of the woods you would go broke if just cutting hardwood saw logs, since most the volume is pulp quality. ;) Hardwood wouldn't be much good after a year in my opinion when laying out in the woods under foliage of shrubs and new trees suckering up to shade it. Softwood persists on the ground a lot longer than hardwood, it stays in tact longer before turning to mush or sponge material. If your just using it for camp fire wood, softwood is probably good for 5 years. That's my experience with my fir and spruce nubbins I use in the back yard fire pot. The wood is uncovered under tree foliage. Most tops of any species are gone in our climate by 10 years. Run a brush saw for a living and you'll be glad of that.  :D
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

thecfarm

Depends on the logger too.Some will do a good job cleaning up the small stuff and some will leave alot.I have seen lots that looked real good and some with alot of fire wood left.But maybe the land owner was going to clean up the wood too.A couple years is right for decent fire wood.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

SwampDonkey

cfarm, firewood laying out among the brush is a lot different than stacked along the woodlot road. It rots quicker dispersed and shaded in under green bushes, never dries except for real fine stuff you won't pick up for firewood.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

stonebroke

I have been cutting 12 year old red oak tops for firewood the past two years. All the sapwood is gone but what is left is nice and dry.

stonebroke

Ron Scott

As stated above, "it depends".  Depending upon the species, location to the ground, weather, crown cover, etc. the sooner that you cut the fuelwood cut, removed, and stacked for drying, the better.

If you want a lot of firewood it will depend upon the amount of products the logger is being required to removed. Depending upon the harvest contract, if you let the logger know that you want some firewood left and how much, they will often work with you and provide your needs.

The converting factor for fuelwood is .3333 to convert 1000 bd. ft to a "standard cord" or 55.0 to cubic feet.
~Ron

SwampDonkey

Stonebroke, the 12 year old stuff must be big but diameter eh? That sure don't rot to humus in 10-12 years.  :D :D All in perspective I guess. The 3" hardwood tops are pretty well shot though. ;)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

stonebroke

One to two foot mostly some bigger.

Stonebroke

thecfarm

Swampdockey,I still feel it makes decent fire wood in 2 years,even though it is left in the brush,as you say.I was not talking about wood piles next to a woods road.My father used to do it that way. Way to slow for me. I haul all my wood out to the wood yard in log lenght and than the tops come out.I would like to cut about 20 acres with a trailer,the slow way.But if I'm cutting for a load of logs,everything comes out with a my winch.I will burn just about anything that I can get my hands on,even if I have to go back and put a chain on to the tree because it broke in two pieces.I have alot of dead wood that mother nature is doing the thinning for me,because I can not keep up with 130 arces of wood.I cannot see walking by all of the dead wood to cut down a good growing tree.There are many trees still for the wild life that depend on these dead trees.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

cheyenne

 I heat my house with wood that most would scoff at.Punky,rotted, anything i can burn.It just takes more of it. But it's better than letting it rot or paying the propane man.....Cheyenne
Home of the white buffalo

zackman1801

alot of times around here not only is there pulp and timber operations going but alot of guys are now using the whole tree, they skid it all out, cut out the saw logs, cut out the pulp, and then chip the tops to be used for paper or for biomass. But usually if there is a pulp operation going your not going to find much more than branches and limbs in the woods because they take almost anything thats 4" in dia. and up at the mill.
"Improvise, Adapt, OVERCOME!"
Husky 365sp 20" bar

SwampDonkey

As Zackman says, not much wood is left behind unless it's the fine stuff. Pretty much have to use most of the trees if your going to survive as a logger cutting undervalued wood.  :-\ Even on crown land there is a policy to make use of most every morsel of wood. One of the reasons I beleive the government has not invested much in pellets, because the big players are crying for every morsel off public forest land.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Gary_C

I was just looking at some of the latest timber sales the Minnesota DNR is offering. Here are the sections of the contract that deal with the tops:

Biomass chipping not allowed on this permit. Where allowed, an Added Timber Agreement is required.
Lop and scatter slash evenly over the harvest site to within 6 feet of the ground.

All trees, except boxelder, should be utilized to a 10 inch top diameter. Timber utilized to a smaller diameter will be considered added timber. Boxelder can be utilized to a 3 iinch top diameter.


Now when you cut a tree you only are entitled to the part up to the top diameter that is specified. Even though you are still required to "lop and scatter slash" if you want to keep the top, you have to pay extra for it.  ::)

I am not surprised. At the same time the state is doing this, they are expressing sympathy for the plight of the loggers in the state being run out of business by the buying practices of the pulp and paper mills.   :)
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

underdog

I see two sides to this.
Anything that grows on the land takes from it.
I was studying up on hay the other day, was when a light in my head went off. Never thought much about it before.
But for every bail of hay hauled away some type of nutrient needs to be brought in to replinish the loss.
So if you spread the waste over the land you will be providing ground cover and giving back nutrients .
It is all usefull, but if you take it all how much will it cost to conserve the soil and replenesh it.

Gary_C

Quote from: underdog on October 29, 2008, 11:00:15 AM
I see two sides to this.
Anything that grows on the land takes from it.
It is all usefull, but if you take it all how much will it cost to conserve the soil and replenesh it.


That's certainly true. So perhaps the next thing the landowner could do is charge extra for the bark if the logger took that. And on saw logs, there are the slabs too.  ;D
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

SwampDonkey

I think it's a good policy to leave something, but around here you'd have everyone calling and saying look at the waste those guys are leaving in the woods. And as I stated before, we have undervalued wood, so once it's off the stump we have to take what we can market to survive.

Right at the time when Landeggar, for Parsons and Whitmore, declared bankruptcy the Kraft pulp price was historically high at over $800 a metric tonne and they were paying $43 a metric tonne for the raw material. I think an outfit like that has to look at itself for losses to inefficiencies not the loggers. I'd say they do darn good to even survive. Interestingly enough leading up to this for a short number of years, the SOB made himself the top creditor by taking some of his own wealth and millions from the pension fund to invest in the operations. When he shut her down and never lost a dime. But, you can imagine who did. All the woodlot loggers, crown loggers, pensioners, service contractors. Our local marketing board lost $200,000 of private wood, this was the 2nd hit in 5 years to our board. The wood volume was part of seized assets to pay creditors with, something they never paid for, thus never owned to begin with. ::)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

John Mc

Quote from: underdog on October 29, 2008, 11:00:15 AM
So if you spread the waste over the land you will be providing ground cover and giving back nutrients .
It is all useful, but if you take it all how much will it cost to conserve the soil and replenish it.

It's getting more and more common around here to see contracts requiring that anything under 3 or 4 inches diameter be left in the forest to return nutrients to the soil. The nutrient concentration is much higher in the smaller stuff than in the big logs anyway...

John Mc
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

Ron Scott

Yes, leave enough fine materials of leaves, twigs, and small limbs and branches scattered over the harvest area for nutrient replenishing.
~Ron

Thank You Sponsors!