Sawing a straight Elm board, mission impossible?

[Celeriac]

Another volunteer has been bringing me some logs that came from a project area at our church camp.  Three of them were white Elm.  After cutting them and seeing the results I'd like to know if it is possible to cut a straight board out of this stuff? 

It didn't seem to matter if it was face sawn or quarter sawn, either way it warped away from the core of the tree as I cut.  6" of bow in 12 feet is something , makes Hickory look tame and mild mannered.  What am I missing when it comes to sawing this stuff other than cutting it for blocking? 

[Kansas]

I dont know how many elm species there are, but I think it varies a lot across species, and to some extent, individual trees. We have had good luck sawing an occasional red elm, along with siberian elm. We have had good luck at times with what I would call white elm. On the other hand, we cut what a logger told us was grey elm-dont know what kind it really was, but it got up and walked away from the mill on its own. Twisted, bowed, curled, warped, you name it, it did it. I think if its going to warp or whatever, you arent going to stop it. If quartersawing it cant stop it, dont think anything will work.

[mike_van]

I've found small dia. logs under 10" or so to be the worst in most hardwoods. Softwoods, you just don't see it as bad if at all.

[LeeB]

Sometimes letting them set for a while helps.

[Larry]

What Kansas said.  Good trees make good sawlogs which make good lumber.  A leaner or even a tree with heavier limbs on one side is gonna be a problem.

[tyb525]

I've cut (slabbed) two red elms. They were both dead standing, with the bark falling off, but not rotten. One was about 14" diameter and 8' long, the other about 18" diameter and 12' long.

The smaller one was the one I sawed first. It did ok, but the board with the pith in it cupped terribly, which I expected.
When I stacked the boards, I didn't put much weight on top.

The bigger one produced some beautiful, wide slabs with real nice wavy grain. They were surprisingly straight, I couldn't see any warp, cup, or twist.
When I stacked these slabs, I took some big chunks up firewood rounds (50+ pounds) and put them on top, in line with the stickers. I covered the stack with a tarp.
That was about 4 weeks ago.
I checked them 2 days ago, and they are still nice and flat. I'm gonna have them kiln dried sometime, and try to make some natural-edge tables and stuff.

I haven't cut any other kind of elm, so I don't know what other kinds are like.

[SwampDonkey]

Sounds like you may have had a bunch of limb wood unloaded on your operation to. I've had elm sawed and it was so nice the sawyer decided to keep it all.  : Sorry to be a smart elic, but I never did see it again. Except, on the way out of the yard I had a glance into his saw shed and seen it stacked and stickered. To tell you the truth, I don't think he could differentiate it from red oak.  :

[Celeriac]

The logs in question are probably American Elm, locally referred to as "pi** elm", probably due to the odor of the sawn lumber.  Certainly not limb wood, one was 18" on the butt end, no curve or sizable knots.  The logs had been setting a while so I thought might be contributing to the warp.  I haven't cut any Red Elm yet but I understand it's much more stable.

[WDH]

The elms have spiral grain where the cell orientation spirals around the bole at a slant rather than line up in a vertical plane.  That will always make it a difficult species to process.  Around here there is no market for it except for pallets. 

There is a good reason that we want to grow oak, yellow poplar, walnut, and cherry.  These species are not nearly as difficult to process and utilize as the elms, hackberry, sweetgum,sycamore, and blackgum.  That spiral or interlocked grain is a real problem.

[Toolman]

I cut an American Elm off my property a couple years ago. About a week later, all of the boards looked like airplane propellers. I had them stacked, stickered and banded and still ended up with a mess. I turned them into firewood. Burns nice and hot!! I recently cut another one. This time, I ended up with an 18x18 cant. I rolled it off mill and have it sitting in shed for future use. Maybe in 5 yrs or so, I'll cut it and see what the boards will do. It seems better used as firewood than boards though.

[SwampDonkey]

Well I believe the alternative explanation that WDH gave concerning the grain has a lot to do with it. I neglected to mention it even though in the back of my mind I was thinking it. ;D On another note I have white elm veneer paneling in my living room walls.  ;)

[bandmiller2]

Remember when pickups had wood beds,they used elm for its toughness.Its harder to cut but set the logs up onblocks and let them work out their fustrations 6months or even a year.Green elm will do a half gainer on the carrage wile you cut it. Frank C.

[bandmiller2]

Forgot to add if-en your in a big hurry cut a cant and set it aside a wile, month or so,recut and just accept your losses.Frank C.

[WDH]

Some of it will dry straight, but it is a crap shoot as to which logs will do well and which ones will misbehave.  The big hackberry (elm family) that I sawed misbehaved .

[ely]

 i seen some wood turners this weekend that liked the american elm for projects on the lathe. with that interlocked grain it really looks nice. my boy got a small top from those guys and it was pretty as far as grain orientation.

[Celeriac]

I expected the spiral grain would be the cause.  One of my old tree books mentions American Elm as being the preferred material for wagon wheel hubs.  Sounds like it would be a good candidate for end grain wood block floors?  Cut 4"x6, then dice them up.  Just thinking... ???

[Larry]

One of my old tree books mentions American Elm as being the preferred material for wagon wheel hubs.

To improve seed germination behind some of the old grain drills we pulled an implement called a cultipacker.  I've seen a few that had wood bushings...somewhere I heard they were made of elm.  I think John Deere sold elm bushings as late as maybe the 80's but they were quite high priced.  I've made several elm bushings for cultipackers and other equipment...don't think it is a going market anymore. :D :D

I sawed some 6/4 this past spring.  It's came off the saw pretty good but I've noticed its moving in my stickered stack some...and it's down about 800 board foot from the top.

[beenthere]

........ I've seen a few that had wood bushings...somewhere I heard they were made of elm.  I think John Deere sold elm bushings as late as maybe the 80's but they were quite high priced.  I've made several elm bushings for cultipackers and other equipment...don't think it is a going market anymore. :D :D
........

I'd vote for hard maple as the bearing wood. I was aware once of how many car loads of maple bearing stock arrived in Waterloo, IA each month (or some short period of time) just to be made into bearings for ag equipment. When the Japanese were buying up all the hard maple (70's ??) for bowling alleys, Deere was looking into alternative woods for bearings. (this was info from personal contact with Deere Co.). Recently, when stocking parts at a local Deere dealer, I put some maple bearing blocks in stock too.

[John Mc]

One of the reasons American Elm was popular for bearing stock and wagon wheel hubs was that the interlocked grain makes it very tough... it does not want to split at all (as you probably know if you've ever tried to split some with a maul or wedges).

One of my favorite stories was when a friend of mine was up for a visit. He's 225 pounds of solid muscle (even though it's been a few decades since his stint as a Marine). By comparison, I'm a 170 pound weekend warrior. I was splitting some hardwoods by hand and eventually got pretty pooped out.

When I took a break, he said "Here, let me try!" I asked if he'd ever split wood before. "Not much... a bit when I was a kid." I set him up with some 8" Elm, and let him go at it for about 40 minutes (can you say "drive that wedge all the way to the bottom of the log and it still won't come apart?") After I'd tried to hide my chuckles, I set myself up with some 10" White Ash, and started whacking away (one swing, and it's in two pieces).

I really played it up with him for a while: "Oh, here... I've got the good maul. Try this one." "Try a swing like this". Finally, when he was thoroughly pi$$ed off, I gave him one more "pointer" and slipped in a White Ash for him. BLAM! It flew into two pieces and the maul stuck deep in my in my chopping block. I could barely keep a straight face as I congratulated him on finally "getting it". After a few more seconds I finally cracked and he knew he'd been had.

[tyb525]

It's great for burning - But I wouldn't dare try splitting it by hand! It's hard enough to split it with a hydraulic splitter, even when its seasoned.

[SwampDonkey]

My cousin darn near ruined dad's tractor mounted hydraulic wood splinter on elm firewood.  >:(

On another note, elm was used up here in horse stalls. Horses like to tread in their stall, as you know, and elm held up to the wear. At one time huge white elm was abundant around here on the landscape until someone introduced Dutch elm disease.  : The grain is beautiful in my opinion and turns nice bowls. I'll never take is off my living room walls.  8)

[Larry]

Maple...learned something new. :P  Thanks for correcting me, beenthere.

[Faron]

John Mc,  :D :D :D :D  I liked that. 

[John Mc]

John Mc,  :D :D :D :D  I liked that. 

Yeah, I had fun with it. The fact that we had an audience (including a couple of attractive young ladies) made it even better. After we knocked off, and got a couple of beers in him, even he thought it was funny.

[Toolman]

My cousin darn near ruined dad's tractor mounted hydraulic wood splinter on elm firewood.  >:(

On another note, elm was used up here in horse stalls. Horses like to tread in their stall, as you know, and elm held up to the wear. At one time huge white elm was abundant around here on the landscape until someone introduced Dutch elm disease.  : The grain is beautiful in my opinion and turns nice bowls. I'll never take is off my living room walls.  8)
[/quote


In my earlier post when I said I cut a couple elm off my property with bandmill, I also cut 9 more down, all due to dutch elm disease. My neighbor had 17 die in 2 years! Most of the elm died off in our neighborhood in a span of 2-3 yrs. Dutch elm is the only thing we can figure killed them. About 8 yrs. ago, we had a drought in our area and the following year the elm started dying off.  I am still burning elm from all of these trees. They are a monster to split, even with a 22 ton log splitter. I consider it next to locust, the best wood for heating. Nice blue flame, little ash. Now, the oaks in our area are starting to mysteriously die off. It's getting scary. If the ash borer hits next, that's gonna really devastate my woodlot. I hope nothing attacks my hickory trees or my hilltop is going to look bald.

[John Mc]

You just don't see many big American Elm around my area any more. Once they get over a certain size, it seems the Dutch Elm disease takes them. It's too bad... they make great shade trees, and can grow pretty quickly (one of the reasons so many small towns have an "Elm Street", I guess).

I like elm for firewood as well... as long as someone else splits it! Not quite as many BTUs per cord as Oak, Beech, or Hard Maple, but it starts more easily. Of course, once you get a nice hot fire going, the ease of starting becomes a non-issue.

John Mc

[SwampDonkey]

I here you guys. It seems one tree species after another is succumbing to some introduced pest:

white elm: Dutch elm
ash: EAB
beech: nectria and scale
white pine: rust, weevils
chestnut: blight
butternut:  canker

list goes on.

That's globalization for ya. Ecology suffers for the $$ :

[Buzsaw]

I remember splitting elm with a maul and wedges.   You had better luck if you chunked off slabs in a circular fashion rather than crossing the heart wood. 
I want to build a fruit press and was thinking of using elm or hickory.  Anyone got a preference on the wood?  Or a good press plan?

[John Mc]

I here you guys. It seems one tree species after another is succumbing to some introduced pest:

white elm: Dutch elm
ash: EAB
beech: nectria and scale
white pine: rust, weevils
chestnut: blight
butternut:  canker

list goes on.

Hemlock: HWA

Not to mention the invasive plants which have been introduced, and are out-competing the native ones for resources. I've got areas when buckthorn is the dominant species in the understory, suppressing the growth of other, native species.

[5quarter]

Sorry guys for hauling this thread up to the top, But I had a few tidbits that might be useful. I've cut quite a bit of Red and Siberian Elm and my experience has been similar to others. I have noticed that not all elm grow spirally. Many on my property that grow in dense stands tend to be very straight and dry with little or no defect. Those trees on the edge of a stand or free standing tend to have pronounced spiral trunks and are rarely straight. I never cut any of these latter types for lumber anymore as I have never gotten a straight board out of them. You can however, quarter them on your bandsaw and then bust out the chainsaw and section into firewood without ever having to split.

Chet

[Jim Spencer]

I built a shed out of green elm about 50 years ago and the wood warped and pulled the nails loose when it warped.
The boards were nailed 16" on center and still they warped and pulled the nails loose.  I remember the boards were so hard after a couple years nailed up that I could not drive a nail through them.  Had to drill the boards and use clamps to try to straighten them.
Very hard stuff to work with.  If I had known this I would never had the logs sawed.   
The wood is beautiful though.

[red oaks lumber]

the american elm was developed my the us goverment for use in the air force as propellors on their airplanes. lol  but , the sawmillers assoc. lobbied god to do away with the tree a.k.a. dutch elm deiase.

[bandmiller2]

Really if you want to do anything with elm you just have to make a cant,set it aside, and forget about it for a wile.I still have a couple of biguns along a wall when they have seeds the DanG squirrels nip the little branches off and make a mess on the grass.Frank C.

[SwampDonkey]

Yeah, the couple of elm boards I have are all twisted, not severe, but bad enough to render them firewood. Worst stuff I've seen. Might be good for sled runners if they were 4" thick, but than again.  :

[gemniii]

One of the reasons American Elm was popular for bearing stock and wagon wheel hubs was that the interlocked grain makes it very tough... it does not want to split at all (as you probably know if you've ever tried to split some with a maul or wedges).

One of my favorite stories was when a friend of mine was up for a visit. He's 225 pounds of solid muscle (even though it's been a few decades since his stint as a Marine). By comparison, I'm a 170 pound weekend warrior. I was splitting some hardwoods by hand and eventually got pretty pooped out.

When I took a break, he said "Here, let me try!" I asked if he'd ever split wood before. "Not much... a bit when I was a kid." I set him up with some 8" Elm, and let him go at it for about 40 minutes (can you say "drive that wedge all the way to the bottom of the log and it still won't come apart?") After I'd tried to hide my chuckles, I set myself up with some 10" White Ash, and started whacking away (one swing, and it's in two pieces).

I really played it up with him for a while: "Oh, here... I've got the good maul. Try this one." "Try a swing like this". Finally, when he was thoroughly pi$$ed off, I gave him one more "pointer" and slipped in a White Ash for him. BLAM! It flew into two pieces and the maul stuck deep in my in my chopping block. I could barely keep a straight face as I congratulated him on finally "getting it". After a few more seconds I finally cracked and he knew he'd been had.

Just had to comment on this one -
Back in the late '60's I lived in Essex Ctr, Vt. with my parents and grandparents in a duplex on 30+ acres, mostly maple, but there were a few old elms also.  During one of the "oil crisis" times my Dad and Grandad installed woodstoves and the first couple of years we split by hand.  My Dad set me up the same way as John did.  We took down one of the elms and he had me make the whole thing into small pieces.  I wouldn't call it splitting so much as beating it into small pieces.

[woodmills1]

here are some shots of some elm I cut from a nice straight yard tree with no tramp metal

[WDH]

Did it dry well?

[SwampDonkey]

That might look straight grained off the mill, but that's by looking at the ring growth only. I can bet that is as cross grained as any and will ripple and bow like a Christmas ribbon when dried. Just look on the end of the board for the ripple effect in the pores. :D

[woodmills1]

the customer wanted it and took it away in his truck, so I don't have a clue as to how it did.

[woodmills1]

I called victor who did the tree removal and asked him to put me in contact with the homeowner.  Victor said he is about to contact many of his previous customers so maybe I can find out how the nice elm faired during drying.