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Advice I got from Wood Mizer rep

Started by Bothy_Loon, October 07, 2008, 03:33:23 PM

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Bothy_Loon

I went to a demo last year of Wood Mizer sawmill equipment as I was thinking I could do with another saw to make sawing fence posts quicker / easier.
I asked the rep which machine he would recommend for sawing thousands of 5ft 6in 3inch x3inch Larch fence posts.
His reply was very interesting.
Do not saw them. Get somebody else to do it because none of our machines are suitable for that kind of job.
They would mostly be sawn from single length logs of between 6 - 16 inch diameter.
Interesting reply I thought. ;D

logwalker

It is hard to say who you actually talked to and what their level of expertise was. Shows are often staffed by people with less experience than regular staff. Ask the same question of the corporate office in Indianapolis and see what the answer is. It might be the same. I don't know, but it doesn't sound right. It seems to me that a gang saw with the ability to saw 3" deep would make short work of cants created on a bandmill. Do you have a market for the material?   Joe
Let's all be careful out there tomorrow. Lt40hd, 22' Kenworth Flatbed rollback dump, MM45B Mitsubishi trackhoe, Clark5000lb Forklift, Kubota L2850 tractor

Ron Wenrich

I saw 4x4 locust fence posts on a circle mill using a vertical edger.  I process a log every couple of minutes or less, depending on size and straightness.  It acts like a gang saw, but you don't have to handle cants, only posts.

My process is to cut an opening face, then turn the log.  Cut another open face and turn the log.  Set the edger blades at 4" and 8", then set the log at a 4" increment.  Pull a cant and get posts. 
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Bibbyman

The short length is a real time killer on a band mill.  If I were going to try it,  I'd make the logs double the length - 11'.  Then cut them in two after the sawing.

Logs smaller than 10" in dia are a pain too.  Sounds like a job for a scrag mill and a resaw.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDE25 Super 25hp 3ph with Command Control and Accuset.
Sawing since '94

Dave Shepard

I recently did a fence post job. Black locust, 4x4x 7' Mostly smaller logs yielding 4 posts, but some yielding as many as 9. It took a long time, and I attribute it to logs that were a little too short to handle efficiently. There was also a lumber loss factor to not being able to use my tapers, or to dog them appropriately. I agree with Bibbyman, cut them 11' and cut to length afterwards.


Dave
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

Bibbyman

Four back supports helps a lot on short logs. 

7' logs I'd load forward with little end first to reach the front toe board.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDE25 Super 25hp 3ph with Command Control and Accuset.
Sawing since '94

Dave Shepard

Problem was they weren't sorted, and I don't have a live deck setup. I was moving them about 8 or ten to a scoop with the loader. Just your basic chaos. ::) :D If they were straight logs, I'd have had them left 14', but that doesn't work with locust.


Dave
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

woodmills1

I can't tell you how many customers I have told they don't want me to make their product.  I now ask every call.....what are you doing with the wood before I TAKE THE ORDER.
James Mills,Lovely wife,collect old tools,vacuuming fool,36 bdft/hr,oak paper cutter,ebonic yooper rapper nauga seller, Blue Ox? its not fast, 2 cat family, LT70,edger, 375 bd ft/hr, we like Bob,free heat,no oil 12 years,big splitter, baked stuffed lobster, still cuttin the logs dere IAM

MaddiesDad

Quote from: Bibbyman on October 07, 2008, 06:10:07 PM
The short length is a real time killer on a band mill.  If I were going to try it,  I'd make the logs double the length - 11'.  Then cut them in two after the sawing.

Logs smaller than 10" in dia are a pain too.  Sounds like a job for a scrag mill and a resaw.
That or a Scragg mill with Vertical Edgers. That way after the 1/4 turn you could pull the 3x3's off in one pass, do your math right and you could pull 8 off in one pass.

MaddiesDad

Quote from: logwalker on October 07, 2008, 04:35:21 PM
It is hard to say who you actually talked to and what their level of expertise was. Shows are often staffed by people with less experience than regular staff. Ask the same question of the corporate office in Indianapolis and see what the answer is. It might be the same.  Joe
I'm gonna doubt that.  Woodmizer does pretty much every show in the forestry circuit and sell a LOT of mills at shows.  I can't fathom them sending thier second string per say, esp woodmizer. All the woodmizer people I've seen at the shows have always been professional and nice.  There's a young lady at the Kentucky show and a shorter gentleman that were very knowledgeable, nice and very professional.  WMZ dumps craploads of money into shows, I can't even fathom how much, I bet it pushes 6 figures.

Toolman

That sales rep must've been paid by the hour, not commission on sales. ???
"A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have" (Thomas Jefferson)

Jeff

I believe Bothy is in Scotland, so the Wood-Mizer sales experience could be different then what we know here.
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

beenthere

QuoteI asked the rep which machine he would recommend for sawing thousands of 5ft 6in 3inch x3inch Larch fence posts.

I'm curious...but would anyone recommend a portable band mill for this job, looking beyond doing it as a hobby or for the exercise ? 

Not considering that the sales rep appeared to be turning a potential customer away, was he really being honest with the question?   ::) ::)

I too thought the response Bothy Loon received was interesting, but am wondering if it was an honest answer.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Warren

BL,

For a full time dedicated business, a scrag and a 4" deep edger would be quicker.  But, for a one time deal, a Woodmizer mill would be fine.   I do cedar 4x4's on a Woodmizer LT40 regularly.  As Bibby said, small end toward the sawyer, log forward over the front taper roll, all 4 back stops linked to the hydraulic control. I can knock out 8 to 10 cedar posts per hour working by myself with 6" to 8" logs. I can average about 20 hardwood 4x4's per hour sawing 10" to 16" mixed hardwood logs.

Logwalker asked the profit question.  Do you have a market for the side lumber ?

Cedarman would be a good resource if you wanted to consider a scrag.

Warren
LT40SHD42, Case 1845C,  Baker Edger ...  And still not near enough time in the day ...

stonebroke

What does  the Wood Mizer factory say about this?

Stonebroke


Gary_C

Quote from: beenthere on October 08, 2008, 10:23:45 AM
QuoteI asked the rep which machine he would recommend for sawing thousands of 5ft 6in 3inch x3inch Larch fence posts.

I'm curious...but would anyone recommend a portable band mill for this job, looking beyond doing it as a hobby or for the exercise ? 


I would not recommend or take that job. Even if you could do 10 per hour as Warren said, you would have $5-6 in each 3 x 3 just in sawing charges.

I would give that rep a pat on the back for giving a honest answer. Best machine for that job is an end dogging scrag mill. If he was here, I could send the man to a number of mills that could do the job faster and cheaper than I could with a Woodmizer.

Some years ago I spent two weeks sawing 4 x 4's out of small pine logs that were 8, 10, 12, 14, 16, and 18 feet long. By the time I got to the 12 footers, I was pretty well frustrated and ready to cut the rest down to short lengths because of the difficulty in setting up those pecker poles to get a 4 x 4 with minimum wane. I would never do it again.
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

woodmills1

I do cut many 4x4 out of small logs, but they are dead pines that would pile up as waste ifin i din't have a way to get a product.  I will admit to burning many of the lumpy crooked ones I used to over spend time on when logs were short back then.
James Mills,Lovely wife,collect old tools,vacuuming fool,36 bdft/hr,oak paper cutter,ebonic yooper rapper nauga seller, Blue Ox? its not fast, 2 cat family, LT70,edger, 375 bd ft/hr, we like Bob,free heat,no oil 12 years,big splitter, baked stuffed lobster, still cuttin the logs dere IAM

Cedarman

Most end dogging scragg mills will not go to 3".  Ours will go to about 3 3/8".  A sharp chain fed with 2 small circle saws would work very quickly.  But you need an edger capable of cutting 3".  Also, how will you break down a 6x6, 6x9 or 9x9?

If I had the job, I might think of a way to end dog the small log on the bed of a bandmill, cut one face, rotate, cut rotate, etc.  It has to be quick.  I have thought about making such a critter, but the incentive is not that great since I have a scragg.

With a manual mill, my son and I could make up to 30 3 1/2" x 3 1/2" tapered 7 and 8' posts per hour.  We used a hook to pull logs off a deck.  We were quick and efficient and I was younger than I am now.  But it can be done with 2 people.  Taking into account moving slabs, logs, finished goods, we averaged about 20 to 25 per hour. We made 1000's that way.  Margin on cedar was about $3.00 per post over cost of post.

It all comes down to what you pay for the wood and what you get for the post.  Must have the right margins to make money.



I am in the pink when sawing cedar.

MaddiesDad

Quote from: Cedarman on October 09, 2008, 07:41:51 AM
Most end dogging scragg mills will not go to 3".  Ours will go to about 3 3/8".  A sharp chain fed with 2 small circle saws would work very quickly.  But you need an edger capable of cutting 3".  Also, how will you break down a 6x6, 6x9 or 9x9?

If I had the job, I might think of a way to end dog the small log on the bed of a bandmill, cut one face, rotate, cut rotate, etc.  It has to be quick.  I have thought about making such a critter, but the incentive is not that great since I have a scragg.

With a manual mill, my son and I could make up to 30 3 1/2" x 3 1/2" tapered 7 and 8' posts per hour.  We used a hook to pull logs off a deck.  We were quick and efficient and I was younger than I am now.  But it can be done with 2 people.  Taking into account moving slabs, logs, finished goods, we averaged about 20 to 25 per hour. We made 1000's that way.  Margin on cedar was about $3.00 per post over cost of post.

It all comes down to what you pay for the wood and what you get for the post.  Must have the right margins to make money.
Numerous scragg mills (end doggers) will go to 3", but it reduces the size of the log you can put in it.
With Vertical Edger on the end dogger you can get your 3x3's righ off the head saw

Jeff

When I was sawing we had a 3 blade vertical edger on our CMC. We couldn't cut 3 by 3's as the blades would not go that close together, but you could cut a boat load of 3 1/2 by 3 1/2 out of large blocking logs (we just called them 4X4s.   Square a cant up to 14 3/4  by 18 1/2 and you could peel off 20 of em in a couple minutes.  The favorite size for cutting them was about a straight 9 1/2" diameter log. Slab-flip-slab-flip-slab-split-flip-slab-split and you had 4 4X4s in about 30 seconds. 21 logs you had a bundle, 30 bundles you had a michigan size truck load.

Logs about this size
https://forestryforum.com/media/cmc.mpg
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

DanG

Them big ol' circle mills can do just about anything quicker than any other type. :o

It's too bad we don't have a sponsor with this type of mill, but the Mobile Dimension is probably about the best portable mill for this type of work.  With the twin edgers, you can knock out 3x3s in a single pass on the bigger logs, or 2 passes if you're only getting one post out of a small log, no flipping needed.  When the logs are right, you can sometimes get 2 boards on a single pass.
"I don't feel like an old man.  I feel like a young man who has something wrong with him."  Dick Cavett
"Beat not thy sword into a plowshare, rather beat the sword of thine enemy into a plowshare."

Bothy_Loon

Some interesting comments on here! Just for the record it was in Scotland & yes I do agree that sawing bigger logs double length would be quicker easier etc.
The area rep was telling folks how versatile these machines were & that is why I asked him that question. I already knew the answer in my own mind. I was just playing devils advocate for the sake of others who maybe did not  & would part with money only to find the machine they bought was not really suited to what they were doing.Not saying Mizer is a bad machine just that for that purpose it is not suited & I suppose he did give an honest answer but without actually coming up with any suggestions.
I make most of my money sawing fencing with the odd more interesting job along the way. Got 6boat masts on order at the moment.
I will continue to saw single length small logs into fencing because if I get bigger longer logs I can saw them into more valuable products. I am a one man operation & for me scragg mill / edger etc is not an option.
I also like to recover fencing slats from the slab wood which again the rep / demonstrator did not seem to do judging by the size of slabs in his slab pile. He has since sold his saw I believe to another sawyer who added a Mizer edger but I never saw it working. Looked quite a capable machine though.

Dave Shepard

Quote from: Jeff on October 09, 2008, 02:28:50 PM
Slab-flip-slab-flip-slab-split-flip-slab-split


Say that three times fast! Or even read it once, for that matter. :D


Dave
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

Bothy_Loon


CLL

I can tell you right now, the best way to go is to buy a scragg mill. I saw 4x4x8 cedar posts with a woodmizer lt40hd. The mill is great but extremely slow due to handling all the small logs. Time is money, and with 2 people we was all out to saw 100 4x4's a day. The scragg mill I looked at did 50-75 hour.
Too much work-not enough pay.

MaddiesDad

Quote from: CLL on October 15, 2008, 07:51:33 PM
I can tell you right now, the best way to go is to buy a scragg mill. I saw 4x4x8 cedar posts with a woodmizer lt40hd. The mill is great but extremely slow due to handling all the small logs. Time is money, and with 2 people we was all out to saw 100 4x4's a day. The scragg mill I looked at did 50-75 hour.
Using a Resaw system that should be very easy if it's fed by a scragg mill.  Heck I know guys that go through a 1,000 logs a day on a scragg.

Bothy_Loon

The problem I have is that today I am sawing small logs in short length. Tomorrow I will be sawing battens & boards etc so no one saw will be as efficient sawing all of these things.I am on my own too so have no helpers so I will just work away as I do.I also build sheds etc so some times the saw sits idle. Now if I went & spent a lot of money I could not do that.

DanG

Most of us are in that same boat, Loon...no help or minimal help.  I think that is why the bandmill is the most popular type of small mill.  It comes the closest to being a "do it all" machine of all the different types.  My MDS does great for what I do, but that is because I tailored my operation to fit the machine.  To the uninitiated, it seems that a faster saw would be more efficient, and that is true to a certain extent.  But in a one-man or portable operation, log and lumber handling is a lot bigger issue than the speed of the saw, and that is where the hydraulic bandmills really shine.
"I don't feel like an old man.  I feel like a young man who has something wrong with him."  Dick Cavett
"Beat not thy sword into a plowshare, rather beat the sword of thine enemy into a plowshare."

Bothy_Loon

How very true. When I was in sawmilling with the big boys you would hear them all going on about feet per minute through the saw. I used to tell them the speed is made up in the handling & turnround not the "zip" bit through the saw.Thats when you need to give the machine & the log some respect in order to make a good job.

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