cheap bits for circle mill

[SCSawyer]

Hey guys wondering if any of you guys know where to find the cheapest standall bits. Thanks

[Ron Wenrich]

I believe bit price is pretty standard, since there's only one company making bits - Simonds.  I don't use standalls, but use the standard bit with a winter shank.  Most guys up here run that set up year round. 

I get my teeth from the local saw doc and mill supply.  He gives the discount, even on one box of teeth.  Other guys will give a discount on 5 boxes of teeth, and a few won't give any discount. 

Start with your local saw doc and work from there.

[woodhaven]

Simonds

[sparky]

I use Simonds long, chrome, teeth and bought some at a logging trade show a year ago at a show special price of $1.07, I recall. The normal selling price from the saw shop is $1.27. I have seen teeth on eBay from time to time. My 48" blade has 36 teeth, so a set is not all that costly.

Sparky in MN

[bandmiller2]

Ron,if I may ask whats the differance between a winter and regular shank, is that their propper name.I don't really like standall bits myself they seem to pull harder. Frank C.

[Ron Wenrich]

A winter shank sits out further in the gullet.  It has smaller gullet capacity and is like a standall shank.  The summer shank is smaller and makes a smooth gullet all the way around from the tip of the tooth to the end of the shank.  I run that setup in the edger.

The theory is that the winter shank slows the speed of the sawdust in the gullet, and is less likely to spill out the sides.  That is the same theory with the standall bit.  But, with the shanks, you only have to replace them every couple of million bf, where the bits you change them every 50-100 Mbf (maybe more), so there is some economy to it.  The winter shank is about $7, if I recall.

Where some guys get into trouble is the use a standall bit and a winter shank.  That gives the same effect as the regular bit and the summer shank, but with a greatly reduced gullet capacity. 

I use chrome on my edger and regular longs on my headsaw.  Chromes seem to be more brittle and the corners chip off.  They also don't take a metal hit quite as well.  I feel that the regular long bit is a more economical bit.

[Brian_Rhoad]

Ron, do you swedge the teeth in the edger saws or just file?

[Ron Wenrich]

I just file them.  I don't swage the head saw most of the time.  The newer teeth have enough width to give you the clearance all the way back the tooth.  Longs are better at it than a regular bit.

Most guys don't do a very good job of swaging.  They swage on the edges of the bit, and that causes your corners to break off.  You have to take metal from the center of the tooth and push it out to the edges.

[bandmiller2]

I never had much luck swaging about the time you get to need swaging your usally better off to replace the bits.I better learn though I have a limited number of new bits for my old diston headsaw.One thing I know don't try to swage a blunt bit,the sharper it is the easier it is to spread. Frank C.

[Meadows Miller]

Gday

Ive never run STD bits as I have allways run Arsaw Tct super bits 9/32 or Simmonds Stellite bits that run at about $7.70 aust from a sawshop in Sydney  if Im slack or have a bad run in the recycled timber and run out as they can get them here in 24 hrs for Me I sharpen with a rig I made Myself I use a diamond 4" wheel on the Tct bits and a Std stone on the stellite With the Tct bits I usually get about 4 to 5 000bft per sharpen on unbarked pine  and about 1000bft on recycled timber between sharpens .I buy a coupple of boxes at a time from Arsaw at $3.30us ea inc shipping

Ive allways wanted to give Standall bits a go because I could just do it with a mill file but was allways put off by the Idea that Id have to learn how to swage the bits .Ive run spring sett saws before and didnt mind the filing part ;D but hated putting the sett on them  :(  I just wouldnt mind a bit of quiet sometimes instead of turning of the headrig and turning on another machine to sharpen the saw  ;) :D ;D

Ron the question I have for You is .what sort of run would I expect to gett out of a saw running on  Simmonds Std Long bitts as I might just buy a box to give them a go on the pine what size kerf would You recomend for me as im running a 44" 38 tooth 8 gauge saw at the rim at a rolled speed of 650 to 700 rpm And I might run them in the edger later on when i get it running . thanks for the help  Ron  8)

Reguards Chris

[bandmiller2]

Good morning Chris,Its early morning here Ron should be on line shortly.I was hopeing you guys had a bit and shank manufacturer down under to loosen Simmons strangle hold on the industry.Chris those standall bits were intended to be used on frozen timber the nub under the cutting edge is intended to swirl the frozen dust and keep it from freezing on the side of the board and cant.Many sawyers use them to avoid replacing worn out shanks,I don't know if they help on that account or not.Standall bits will work summer and winter,some guys use them all the time,and love them.Myself I like the standard or long standard blue tips,and file them,I don't debark so do not use carbide.Frank C.
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[Ron Wenrich]

I use the standard bit for economic reasons.  I know guys that run carbide on unbarked logs and have pretty good results.  But, for the price of the carbides ($3-4 ea) vs the standard ($1-1.25), you can run 3 sets of standard to one set of carbides.

I get anywhere from 50-100 Mbf on a set of teeth.  A lot depends on the species, the freshness of the logs, and what I hit.  If I'm sawing tulip poplar or pine, I can saw 10-15 Mbf sometimes between sharpenings.  We do have a debarker. 

In dry white oak or hickory, that might go down to 2-3 Mbf between sharpenings. 

Standard bits can be sharpened fairly quickly with a handfile.  It will take about 5 minutes, and you're up and running.  There is an art form to swaging and filing.  If you swage, you're supposed to file it up, swage the tooth, then refile.  A lot of wasted time and tooth, but it may be necessary at times.

There are sharpeners on the market.  If you use a chrome bit, then you need a sharpener like a Jockey or Andrus grinder.  Its good to have these and to get the right angle on your tooth every so often.  Handfiling will give you a tendency to have not enough of an angle and the saw won't cut as good.  I run the Jockey over the teeth, then a light handfile.

I also can control my saw better by hand.  I run a vertical edger, and if my saw is pulling or pushing, it will show up on the board.  It will either mark the board or leave the edging strip on the board.  A little touch to the offending corners and it will cut straight, if the saw is sharp. 

[MaddiesDad]

There is another source in Auzzie for saws. I'd have to check to find out who.  When I was there the solid tooth saws (48") were amazing popular.  They had a whole different type of sawing, etc to them.  Pulled amazing thin kerf, but they did tend to wabble.  The Inserted tooth will cut faster and smoother to me.
I prefer Carbide on vertical edgers.  In that situation it pulls less kerf, costs less, and draws less horsepower.

You might be able to call around and find some on sale.   Or visit an auction, you can usually buy them for pennies on the dollar.

[Meadows Miller]

Gday

Maddysdad when where You over My way last time ? the places that I know of overhere that do inserts are Phoenix sawmill supply SYD and Macquarrie sawmills in Melb and Phoenix are the only ones that carry stock anymore for Insert saws and Bits .
With the solid TCT narrow kerf light gauge saws I would only use them in situations where saw dia does not exceed 30" dia or flitch depth does not exceed 6" to 8" more than 25% of the time.  As Ive worked with a few sawmillers that try the thin kerf route to save a coupple of /32nds of an inch but there then trying to run a 42" to 48" dia saw on a 9 gauge plate and it just dosent work for production sawing as they wont standup in a heavy cut and just want to layover on you  : saw maint goes up aswell $200+ for a level and tension and $16 to $22 a tip for a retip  No thanks. Central Saws in Bendigo 30 mile from me  is about the best place for $ to get solid tooth TCT saws in Aust but they seem to have a VERRY bad habit of rolling toooo much or tooo little tension in to 95% of the saws Ive gotten from them over the years  even after You have told them how you wanted the saw set up excatly  :
Then theres the best Saw Doctor Ive Ever delt with at Mt Gaimber Saws in Sa thats sorted out every problem that Ive gone to him with . He said I would have been one of only 20 blokes that could tell Him what the saw needed. He said that most blokes that call themselfs sawyers these days where just machine operators posing  ;) :D They just drop the saws of and say its not cutting like it should He is well worth the 400 mile drive to get my saw the once a year on avverage ive had to go 8)
and the only SD that Ive met that knows how to hammer a insert saw wether that be L,R or flat hammerd

I run inserts and im one of the few that do Downunder there are  fewer than 20 static sawmills that do overhere and 4 of them are converts of mine  ;D there is nothing like being able to do most of the sawmaint on site one of my mates mills runs 52" inserts in a large twin saw edger(scragg) and in the 10" bull edger at 50000 bft a day and says he has had no dramas since they started using them

My ideal saw is one you can run Heavy and run Hard all day and it not lay over or get hot at any point in time with a good sawyer/operator that knows what they are doing (eg) never over feeding and laying the saw over in a cut is the main rule I see broken all the time   : .

Ive even writen one saw of right in front of the owner to prove my point once .He came over to the mill and proceeded to Rip into me big time for wasting his time and money buy using a verrrrrry low feed speed and tell you I was dumping water on it to try and keep the body of the saw coooll like there was no tmrow On an 8 gauge saw that he kept getting retipped with tct tips that where to narrow for sawing pine which was all we cut there was an argument every time a set of saws came back  from the s shop : . So I said to him tell me when im going to fast for the saw to cope as i seem to know jack s#%t about saws or sawmiling but anything that happens is YOUR FAULT because ill go as fast as you reckon the saw will handel  :D He stood there with me for the next 15 to 20 min I wound that mill right out i cut some of the the worst timber ive ever seen in my life  :( :'( :'( untill the saw gave out and hit the table on the mill and ripped most of the teeth off . He started again and I just said to him Your the one that knows everything   Mate ;D ;D the new set of saws came in the next time sett up perfect 8) 8)

I think Ill stick with Inserts as they are cheaper in the longrun and easyer to maintain inhouse even tho they cost about twice as much in the initial purchase price I think that a 7center to 8 rim gauge insert will standup to a lot of punishment and last a liftime if run and looked after properly .

Reguards Chris

[MaddiesDad]

I was over in the Spring (our Spring) of 2008.  Wonderful Country.  I was mostly down in Tazzy and Melbourne.  Man I love your country.

[Meadows Miller]

Gday

Maddysdad Im happy that You love Australia so do I tassy and victoria are the two best states to see IMHO I live in heathcote which is almost the dead center of victoria which is only 60 mile north from Melb and about a 4 hr drive max from anywhere in victoria im in the middle of the plantation management zones so my log cartage is pretty even no matter wichway I head to get logs . Plus its just a dang nice town to live in im a 4th generation sawmiller and logger in this area Ive worked in allmost every state in Aust and its allways nice to come back home .

Ive never been out of australia just allways been to busy with work I was going to go to sawlex back in may but work got in the road Ive got it pegged in for next year as a solid date Ive been wanting to get over to the Usa and Can for a long time now to just have a good sticky beak at how You do things overthere .things just seem to come up and I had to put it on hold but its also put me in a better position as I can just go over for 4 to 8 weeks now and one of my Uncles will cover me on the sawmill to keep production up as things slow down for winter a little bit in Aus at that time of year  Im planing on being overthere in Your spring/summer next year

If Your ever back over this way there is plenty of room at My joint if You want a place to stay for awhile while You look around the state it would be no drama for Me plus it would save You a bit of coin on accomadation too  that offer goes to Anyone on FF aswell if they are coming to My neck of the woods for a looksee just send Me a pm .

Reguards Chris