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sawmill horsepower

Started by first shirt, September 10, 2008, 09:41:34 AM

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first shirt

I have an M14 Foley Belsaw sawmill that will be powered by a Ford 6 cylinder 300 CID 100 horsepower motor.  I will be running a PTO shaft specifically designed for the belsaw from the motor to the mandrell.  My question is what RPM is needed at the engine to maintain blade at 540 RPM?  The blade has 24 teeth, kerf is 9/32 and is 40" in diameter.  Thanks...

beenthere

What are you connecting the PTO shaft to..the transmission, or direct to the crankshaft?

Seems that is critical to the question. And think you will need some added transfer of motion between the motor and the PTO shaft.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

woody1

There is a pulley calculator in the foresry forum tool box that will be a big help to you.
If you don't want to row, get out of the boat !

first shirt

Quote from: beenthere on September 10, 2008, 10:21:24 AM
What are you connecting the PTO shaft to..the transmission, or direct to the crankshaft?

Seems that is critical to the question. And think you will need some added transfer of motion between the motor and the PTO shaft.

I will be connecting to a Rockford in and out box that is connected to the engine.  What would be different from running the PTO off a tractor to the mandrell?

rpg52

I'm working on a Belsaw mill too - here is what I did.   My Detroit 3-71 turns at about 1800 rpm - I ran it through a Ford 9" differential (locked the spider gears and removed one axle), attached a 6-spline shaft to the one axle and drove the mandrel off of that.  The gearing in the differential is 3.25:1, that reduces the shaft speed to about 550 rpm.
In a tractor, the speed is reduced through the transmission to ~540 rpm at the pto (depending on engine speed, assuming it doesn't have a 1000 rpm pto, the other common speed)  If you are driving it with pulleys, you need to do the calculations, starting with the engine speed, then reduce it to 5-600 rpm at the mandrel.  Either way, you need some kind of reduction, with gears or pulleys to get it down to that speed.  Start with the engine in the middle of its' power curve (rpm), then figure out how to reduce the speed at the mandrel.  Good luck.
Ray
Belsaw circle mill, in progress.

first shirt

Quote from: rpg52 on September 10, 2008, 02:59:07 PM
I'm working on a Belsaw mill too - here is what I did.   My Detroit 3-71 turns at about 1800 rpm - I ran it through a Ford 9" differential (locked the spider gears and removed one axle), attached a 6-spline shaft to the one axle and drove the mandrel off of that.  The gearing in the differential is 3.25:1, that reduces the shaft speed to about 550 rpm.
In a tractor, the speed is reduced through the transmission to ~540 rpm at the pto (depending on engine speed, assuming it doesn't have a 1000 rpm pto, the other common speed)  If you are driving it with pulleys, you need to do the calculations, starting with the engine speed, then reduce it to 5-600 rpm at the mandrel.  Either way, you need some kind of reduction, with gears or pulleys to get it down to that speed.  Start with the engine in the middle of its' power curve (rpm), then figure out how to reduce the speed at the mandrel.  Good luck.
Ray

What are your thoughts on using a manual transmission from the motor to the mandrell?

Corley5

You'll need a governor to keep the engine RPMs constant in the cut.  I think Pierce (sp) makes/made a belt driven unit.
Burnt Gunpowder is the Smell Of Freedom

Meadows Miller

Gday

gearboxes work fine and You can get the saw speed rite in relation to motor rpms Ive seen a few sawmills overhere that run with 202, 250, 300 CI petrol motors through gear boxs that have run well for partime sawmillers. I prefer deisels Myself they have got a longer P&T band.  Good luck

Chris
4TH Generation Timbergetter

rpg52

Unfortunately I don't have first hand experience, however, several people suggested that the smaller gears in a transmission would produce more heat than a differential.  It makes sense, but probably isn't a big deal until you use it a lot.  The ideal would be a wrecked tractor with an intact transmission, but hard to find.  For your situation, a truck transmission would likely work - I don't know about the difficulties in finding one with the proper gearing, connecting the splines, etc.  As Corely 5 mentioned, regulating the speed is also an issue.  I've heard of using a speed control from a car to regulate rpms - don't have any experience with them though.  Gas engines by their nature tend to use more fuel than diesels too.  Not to discourage you, for doing some part time cutting, likely lots of improvisations will work.  The down side - you either pay up front, or in the long run.  The ideal is a diesel engine with a hydraulic governor, lowest operating costs, good speed control, but up front costs are considerably higher.  Good luck and be safe.
Ray   :)
Belsaw circle mill, in progress.

bandmiller2

First shirt,if you have a rockford clutch the shaft coming out will turn at engine speed way to high for the mill.What you have is the PTO shaft designed for a farm tractor turning at 540 rpm which is a good speed for the blade.You have to reduce the speed from  the output shaft on the engine the usual way is  belts either vee or flat.Do the math but a three or four to one reduction would be about right seeing as you have plenty of HP , no need to have the engine screaming.Of course you could reduce the speed with a gearbox as you should have a slip clutch built into your PTO shaft. Frank C.
A man armed with common sense is packing a big piece

rpg52

Frank,

" . . . you should have a slip clutch built into your PTO shaft."

The Belsaw shaft does have a shear bolt (soft bolt that will break if the blade gets pinched), should there also be a slip clutch?  I can see the value, just wondering whether there should be another place that allows slippage in the drive system.  Pulleys would do it too I assume.  Thanks,
Ray
Belsaw circle mill, in progress.

Dan_Shade

i would rather have a slip clutch than shear pins.  if it's a clutch, you can shut down power, remove whatever is binding, and start back up, if you shear a pin, then you have to go find a replacement pin after removing power.
Woodmizer LT40HDG25 / Stihl 066 alaskan
lots of dull bands and chains

There's a fine line between turning firewood into beautiful things and beautiful things into firewood.

tyb525

We use pieces of all thread for shear bolts on our bushhog and it works well...don't know if that would be strong enough for a sawmill though. We bought several rods of it for pretty cheap I think.
LT10G10, Stihl 038 Magnum, many woodworking tools. Currently a farm service applicator, trying to find time to saw!

bandmiller2

Ray,I knew belsaw had some kind of protection,shear pin or clutch,wasen't sure witch one.Belts serve several purposes speed reduction,slip clutch,they reduce vibration.In the long run belts are probibly your best option.That size pulleys and belts are too expensive to buy new,haunt junkyards and old tractor dealerships and get used.One advantage as long as you get all the belts the same legnth any legnth will do.Of course you could look for a large old tractor with bad rubber,you would get your engine ,governor,and gear reduction all in one.
frank C.
A man armed with common sense is packing a big piece

HOGFARMER

I bought a Foley Belsaw M-14 in April.  It also has the PTO shaft and was hooked up to a IH tractor of about 40HP when I bought it.  I will be running it with either a 85HP Massay or  130HP IH.  Both of these are more than needed.  Th simpest way to set it up is to get an older farm tractor.  This will back up to it, hook up the shaft and you are done.  The Tractor has a govenor and the required gear reduction.  Hope this helps!
Manual LT-30

first shirt

Quote from: HOGFARMER on September 12, 2008, 10:13:56 PM
I bought a Foley Belsaw M-14 in April.  It also has the PTO shaft and was hooked up to a IH tractor of about 40HP when I bought it.  I will be running it with either a 85HP Massay or  130HP IH.  Both of these are more than needed.  Th simpest way to set it up is to get an older farm tractor.  This will back up to it, hook up the shaft and you are done.  The Tractor has a govenor and the required gear reduction.  Hope this helps!


I have a Massey 135, I am going to try this and see what happens.  I have taken great steps in the construction of my mill.  I hope the 135 will generate enough power that is required.

shinnlinger

First shirt,

If I recall correctly, you still have the inliner in the pickup yes?

What if you jack the back of the truck up and block the front and run the mill from a PTO spline knob welded to an old rim attached to the drive axle?  You would have to bind up the opposite drive wheel with a chain bolted to the lug studs  or welded to another old rim, attached to the frame or something, but this way you still have a truck someday if you need it and the cab /canopy makes for nice blade and chainsaw storage. 

I bet a little bit of sleathing would turn up a govener from a Ford industrial 6 and I bet a manual choke cable would work for throttle.   I know that surplus center sells PTO extensions which you could weld right to an old rim if you can't find something locally.

Good luck!  oh and figure out which way you want the to spin the mill so you can hook it to either the right or left wheel to maximize your gear options.
Shinnlinger
Woodshop teacher, pasture raised chicken farmer
34 horse kubota L-2850, Turner Band Mill, '84 F-600,
living in self-built/milled timberframe home

rpg52

The "rule of thumb" for determining horsepower for a circular saw is 3 hp/tooth.  24 teeth ~ 75 hp.  You can do it with less, depending on tree species, diameter of log, etc.  I have about 80 hp.
Belsaw circle mill, in progress.

sparky

Running a 36 tooth, 48", blade in softwood requires a minimum of 55 HP to run effieciently based on my experience. Hardwood requires 65 HP to 70 HP. This is based on cutting logs with diameters from 24" to 30". I agree with several of the replies in that using a farm tractor as a power source solves a lot of problems with gearing and mating up with your Belsaw. You may be able to get a tractor chassis that will allow you to install your exisitng Ford engine. If so, all you would need is to add a governor.

Incidently, I have a Belsaw M14 in storage that I need a PTO adapter for in case you should have a spare.

Sparky
I'tnl 2050 with Prentrice 110, Custom built 48" left-hand circular and 52" Bellsaw right-hand circular mills, Jonsered 2171, Stihl 084, and too many other chainsaws. John Deere 3020 and Oliver 1800 with FELs. 20" 4-sided planer and misc.

bandmiller2

Sparky, alot of farm implements have PTO shafts with slip clutches that would work fine on a mill.Frank C.
A man armed with common sense is packing a big piece

bandmiller2

First shirt,your 135 will run the mill but you won't be awash in power.Frank C.
A man armed with common sense is packing a big piece

Meadows Miller

Gday

I use a pto slipp clutch on my little circ mill and I think they are the only way to go Ive only jamed the saw about 10 times and its done what its suposed to do which is save your main clutch (the expensive one  :o) I brought mine for about $200 bucks 10 years ago and its been worth every cent and the plate is still at about 95%+ life left in it Id use one over a sheer pin any day

Chris
4TH Generation Timbergetter

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