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What size tractor do I need

Started by AndyB, June 24, 2003, 07:44:17 PM

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AndyB

I'm new at this sawmill game so need some help.

I have a WM LT15 standard equipment.  I purchased it for personal use.  I turn wood and build craftsman/stickley style antique reproductions.  This is a hobby for me guys,  I don't want to get into the business.  I'm too old for that.  How old? I was the right guide for the three wise men.

With the standard equipment I don't plan to cut logs any larger than 24"x 10-1/2'.  Because my needs aren't that big I have sources for an abundant supply of red/white oak, maple, cherry etc.

I've looked at tractors with 2000 and 2800lb lift capacity at max height.  I'm not a former marine so don't want to hunt squirrel with a 105MM Howitzer.
 
Any input would be greatly appreciated.

kip

I have a 25hp Yanmar (gray market) tractor with a boom pole that I use and it works great. I do wish I had a FEL for it though. I wouldn't go any smaller than a 20hp if I were you.

Kip

Tex-saw

I would suggest a least a 35hp tractor,a 10' 24" oak log could easy weigh 1500 if you are going to use the rear 3pt to lift and skid the logs you can get by with a smaller tractor but if you plan on using a front end loader youll need a biger one I got a 72hp case ih with loader and it can handel anything i throw a it, the rear tires were filled with soild rubber and weigh 1800 a pice so with that kind of counter weigh and 3000 pounds fo lift it gets the job done when i start picken up big stacks of lumber i would'nt want none smaller 8) 8)

Neil_B

AndyB,
As long as you can still get out of bed in the morning, your never TOO old. ;)

My father in law has an older Massey 165 with loader. Not sure the HP but it will pick up most logs he comes across. However it would not pick up a 20" x 10' green oak log. It's a good strong tractor but not strong enough for the big un's.

I've got a Massey 50H backhoe that I picked up for $17000, it's a '92. Around 80+ HP I think, but it will pick up over 4500#s. Probably more if I cleaned up the hydraulics and filled the tires. Also made up a set of forks for it as well for lumber stacks.
Handy as all get out for reworking the landscape ;D.
Timberwolf / TimberPro sawmill, Woodmizer edger, both with Kubota diesels. '92 Massey Ferguson 50H backhoe, '92 Ford F450 with 14' dump/ flatbed and of course an '88 GMC 3500 pickup.

Norm

For what you want to lift a 50hp tractor with a FEL would work pretty well. We used to have a JD5300 that would lift about 3000 with a good counter weight on back. I wouldn't go much less than 40hp. One nice thing about utility tractors is they hold their value so well. We had a 40hp deutz in pretty rough shape that we sold through the farm spokesman and got a ton of calls for it. Good luck, after you get one you'll never realize how you lived without one before.

woodmills1

I must say that I agree that if you want to lift with the loader or a set of forks then there is no substitute for horsepower.

However, that said take a look at the various tracktor based forwarding trailers that have been appearing lately. Patu and metavic are the two names I remember but there are many more.  get a copy of sawmill and woodlot magazine and look for stories or ads.    http://www.sawmillmag.com/

I have a 30.5 horse Kioti lk3054 with a metavic forwarding trailer and this combo has really turned me into a one man show.  I regularly fell and load medium sized red oaks.  the loader will handle 16' red oak butt logs around 14" at the top.  larger than that I will spin one end at a time onto my woodmizer.  There have been only a few huge butts that came off of loads that I purchased that the loader wouldnt lift.  two real large ones, over 30" I ripped with my chainsaw, but others I skidded over to the saw with the tractor and then pushed and rolled with the bucket.

the trailer also makes a great slab or lumber holder while cutting.  I was lucky enough to find the package for $16,000 used, though I added an FEL later for more $$.
James Mills,Lovely wife,collect old tools,vacuuming fool,36 bdft/hr,oak paper cutter,ebonic yooper rapper nauga seller, Blue Ox? its not fast, 2 cat family, LT70,edger, 375 bd ft/hr, we like Bob,free heat,no oil 12 years,big splitter, baked stuffed lobster, still cuttin the logs dere IAM

Bibbyman

One suggestion I would add.  Take note of the front axle and tire combination to make sure it can handle the weight and be able to move.  A front-end loader is an adaptation to most farm tractors and the front axles and tires on standard 2wd models are on the light side for front end loader use.

I ran a 3444 IH industrial tractor (backhoe with out the backhoe - if that makes sense).  It had great hydraulics and could lift anything you could stick the forks under.  Had a big heavy front axle and spindles and wide industrial tires.  I could align logs or bunch them just by running the front tire up against them and turning the wheel - it had that much power and strength in the front axle and steering. Problem was,  even with loaded back tires and chains,  you couldn't move on soft ground with a load.  I'm not talking soft and in muddy.  I'm talking soft as in anywhere but a packed roadbed.

We ran and are still using an Agco Allis 4660 w FWA.  FWA (four wheel drive) solved the problem of heavy enough axle and big enough tires and traction.  But the overall hydraulics and loader was pretty light and slow compared to the IH industrial tractor.  

Although I'm not a fan of Bobcats, used ones are coming available at what looks to be great prices.  Bobcats are becoming quite a versatile platform to mount all kinds of tools like posthole diggers, blades, sweepers, backhoes, trenchers, tree sheers, etc.

Looks like more than one suggestion so I'll add one more...  When shopping for a tractor that you intend to use with a front loader,  check out the hydraulic pump specs.  The more GPM the faster it will lift and work.  Most farm tractors have really slow pumps compared to an industrial type of machine.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDE25 Super 25hp 3ph with Command Control and Accuset.
Sawing since '94

Percy

Ill give a plug for the skid steers(bobcats). They are just the handiest things.They dont skid logs werth a poop and do chew up the yard if you dont learn how to turn properly. On the positive, if it cant lift it, it will roll it/whatever. My son moved a 40 foot WRC,36 inch at the butt(one end at a time)accross the yard(he's a good operator) without too much trouble.
GOLDEN RULE : The guy with the gold, makes the rules.

D._Frederick

I will second what Bibby said about 2WD tractor front axle being weak. I have a Case/IH that has a welded together front axle that has cracked/split from the stress of the front loader. On the plus side, the turning radius is smaller with this axle. Some makes of tractors can be bought with cast iron front axles that will stand the stress of a loader. The small 20-30hp tractors with front wheel drive also have problems with front axle, when they are used in all wheel drive. The drive system will not stand-up when the weight is transfered to the front, it tears the gearing out.

Bibbyman

Another thing to consider when using any loader to move logs is their length and center of gravity.  You may be lifting a 2000 lb log and as far as total weight be ok.  But it's real easy to get the center of gravity off by a foot or more and the majority of the load is on one side.  When lifting logs from a pile or off a truck,  it's real easy to get more than one (two or three) to roll off onto the forks at one time - sometimes very off center.  Makes for some tense moments and real tough on the machine.

Another tip,  keep the load low and go slow.  I have a couple of young farmer neighbors who keep breaking axles and spindles out of their JD 2wd tractors.  I suspect it's because they stick a big round bale and take off down the road with it at a speed that would be fast enough without a load.  The bounce of the bale multiples the load stress many times over.  They have replaced the broken axles with axle assemblies from larger models.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDE25 Super 25hp 3ph with Command Control and Accuset.
Sawing since '94

shopteacher

I bought a Massey 4WD 1240E with FEL and backhoe about 5 years ago.  It will pick up some pretty large logs but the problem I had was shearing off the 6 grade 5 bolts that held the FEL to the frame.  I have about $25,000. in that machine and it doesn't make sense to tear it up doing things it wasn't meant to do.  I kept an eye on the machinery trader internet site and found a real nice JD 8875 skid steer in Hamilton, Canada. Drove up, run it around the lot a bit and made the deal to have it delivered close to Pittsburgh. The dealer took care of the transportation and paperwork across the border.  It's a great machine. I've been using it to lift pallets of shingles( 32 bundles to a pallet @ 70 lb each) and it lifts them full stroke without hesitation.  The kids at school needed a welding project and I drew up a bucket to sift out large rocks, concrete and cement block from fill. It works great.  I have post hole drill for a 3 pt. hitch I plan to adapt next.  My best advice is to take your time, research(as your now doing) and find the right machine for your application. You won't be sorry.
The picture has the school made bucket on it.
Proud owner of a LT40HDSE25, Corley Circle mill, JD 450C, JD 8875, MF 1240E
Tilt Bed Truck  and well equipted wood shop.

Furby

 Anybody want to swing by G.R., like tomorrow? I got a couple of big 'uns on my trailer and can't get them off without smashing them up.
 Anybody have any clue what a used Hughs Loader with gas engine, bucket, log forks, and 4000 hours on it might go for? I just found one that is in really good (relitive to loaders) shape and the owner is just taking offers.

Larry

I'm not to hot on skid steers because they tear up so much ground especially if your not careful or the ground is wet.  At the same time the prices are really attractive for used good machines.  A lot of 1845 & 1845C Case skid steers in very good condition are selling at decent prices and they will do a lot of work.

Neighbor got a late model bigger used Bobcat.  Looked almost new and not a lot of hours. Asked him where he got it.  He got it from the local rental place.  Apparently they turn them around after a year or two because they are so popular.

Not for sure on this but I think Bobcat came out with quick attach system for the FEL, which is, pretty much industry standard now.  If I am wrong somebody will correct me but that would be something to check out.
Larry, making useful and beautiful things out of the most environmental friendly material on the planet.

We need to insure our customers understand the importance of our craft.

Furby

Yeah, we have a big auction every spring and fall. All the local rental Co. as well as any other heavy equipment owners come. Prices can differ but most rental bobcats have had some mis-use.
 It is fun to go play with all the toys though, where else can I j go just to use a 60' sky jack without a waiver?  ;) :D :D :D

shopteacher

Furby,
   You better be careful with that sky jack talk. You'll have the feds at your front door.  :D :D :D
Proud owner of a LT40HDSE25, Corley Circle mill, JD 450C, JD 8875, MF 1240E
Tilt Bed Truck  and well equipted wood shop.

Furby

 :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

O.K., O.K., O.K. I missed that one! Good job!

Kevin

Having an LT 15 I would ask why do you need a tractor?
Unless the logs are coming from your own property and must be skid to the mill.

I have sources for an abundant supply of red/white oak, maple, cherry etc.

If this supply is to be delivered then have it dropped at a staging area beside the mill.
Problem solved!

The Problem Solver  ;D

Tom

I have a Ford 1910 4wd with Front End Loader. It is rated at 28 Horse drawbar and estimated at 35 horse at the wheels because of the 4wd.   It has done a yoemans job of skidding logs from my place to the mill.  The FEL can position logs that it can't lift.

The biggest concern I have with a FEL is that there is no protection.  Think about it.  If you lift a log too high and it gets away from you over the back of the bucket, there is nothing between the tractor operator and the log but a quick "aw sh**".

Be sure, whatever tractor you use, that you weld a bar in front of the operator or a framework on the FEL to stop a log from killing someone.  This is a well known danger in the hay industry where tractor operators can end up with a round bale in their lap real quick.

Larry

Tom, I never could resist a deal so I bought 1,200 tons of ballast or gravel off a Burlington Northern railroad spur they were going to wreck out.  Figured out real quick that I didn't have any way to get all that gravel home so ran out and bought a FEL for my little Ford 1720.  Roped in the neighbor with his little 6-ton dumptruck to help for a share of the gravel.  Very first thing I did when loading the dumptruck was to rotate the bucket to far back and shower gravel all over the front of the tractor.  There was also a piece of railroad iron in that bucket which put a big crease in the tin of my almost new tractor.  Every time I use the loader I see that big crease on the tractor and THINK.  Sure would hate to think of what a log would have done if it rolled backwards off of the forks I use now.

Guess I was lucky.

Paid heed to Tom's advice.
Larry, making useful and beautiful things out of the most environmental friendly material on the planet.

We need to insure our customers understand the importance of our craft.

Tom

Welcome to the Forestry Forum, Tex-Saw.

Just what we need.......more Texans.   Sigh!

Don Staples must be recruiting. :D

shopteacher

You usually only get one chance at safety.  It takes me 5 weeks to go over all the equipment and safety orientation at the beginning of each wood I class.  We've been very fortunate in only having a few minor cuts, scratches and bumps.  Expect the unexpected.  Take Tom's advice.
Proud owner of a LT40HDSE25, Corley Circle mill, JD 450C, JD 8875, MF 1240E
Tilt Bed Truck  and well equipted wood shop.

bull

I WILL START BY SAYING *( KUBOTA)******

I STARTED SAWING W/ AN LT 15 IN 98 ALSO HAD AN
87 L2550 KUBOTA 29 HP 4X4 W/ FRONTEND LOADER AND STUB FORKS MADE FROM BOX CHANNEL.... WORK VERY WELL  ALL AROUND THE MILL WAS GREAT IN THE WOOD LOT AND USED IT FOR ALL MY SKIDDING 100 ACRES MIXED HARD-SOFT WOOD... ALSO USED IT IN MY LANDSCAPE BUISNESS AND ON THE FARM GREAT LITTLE MACHINE BOUGHT IT NEW IN 1987 SOLD IT TO A FRIEND IN 2000 STILL RUNNING STRONG TODAY i UPDATED TO A 2000 4610 HST 50 HP 4X4 W/ QUICK ATTACH BUCKET AND FORKS.  I HAVE HAD OTHER PEOPLE TELL ME THEY WERE BUYING A KUBOTA AFTER SEEING THEN WORK I HAVE DONE W/ MINE SOME THINGE A QUITE UNBELIEVEABLE ...
THE 2550 COULD SKID 5 16' OAK LOGS W/ 16 INCH TIPS.... AND I ALSO HAVE MOVED 16' OAK LOG WITH 24" TIP AND LOADED IT ONTO THE LT 15 WHAT A WORK OUT
PEFECT BALANCE WAS THE SECRET.... THE 4610 HAS A ONE YARD BUCKET AND WE USE IT TO LOAD BARK MULCH DAILY. THE LARGEST LOG FOR THE 4610 WAS A WHITE PINE 20' W/ A 34" TIP...  18' OAK W 24" TIP ......
GO KUBOTA..... 8)

hawby

Bull,

Lotsa shouting about Orange brand there  :D I had a Green 770 for 5 yrs that did everything I ever asked of it. Do to an unfortunate event (Starts with D, has been sung about) I had to sell it. In less than 18 hours, sold it for $2,000 more than I paid for it 8) I miss that thing :'( :'(

So, yesterday, with a different budget mindset and different needs, I bought a Bobkitty. Not a skidsteer, but an articulated loader. Now, I have not had an opportunity to talk much with it, but I can't wait to hear how "articulate" it is  :P

Seriously, I am very interested in how well it will handle logs. It has a 1600# lift, 3200# tip spec. The articulation is supposed to help keep from tearing up the ground. I did a full tight circle in the owner's yard and never left a divet. (Can you say, "new lawnmower?"

I got two buckets, and a set of forks. I'll take pics when I get it home....soon, I hope.

As for the safety factor, I will be welding a clamp on to the forks that will be able to be taken off/on as needed. (Until I can afford the grapple bucket.)

Lastly, Orange, Blue, Green, Red, White after 40 years of farming and farm related activities... I feel that it is how you treat them, maintain them, and fit the use to the design that determines whether you have a success or failure, more so than brand. I have attended two funerals where someone tried to do more with a tractor than it was designed to do.

No one is more brand loyal than me... but guess what after almost 4 decades of loving Bowties, I have finally had to admit that they now have a really sucky design department and I am gonna have to swallow my pride and buy one of those so called Better Idea trucks.

hawby
Hawby

Missin' loggin', but luvin' the steady check...

Tex-saw

Thanks Tom, real nice forum lots of info, you can never have to many Texans! 8)

bull

HAWBY...
  HERE'S MY TRACTOR HISTORY    
 FORD 8N, 2000 INDUSTRIALW/LOADER,DEXTER,
 SUPER DEXTER  W/ 1 ARM BANDIT
 FARMALL CUB, A,SUPER C,H,M
 JOHNDEERE A,B,3020,3010,2010,820
 2030W/LOADER,2510,2240W/LOADER,2940,4020
 KUBOTA  195 4X4  L 2550 4X4 W/LOADER L4610 4X4      
 W/LOADER
 YOU ARE RIGHT ABOUT THE TRACTOR FITING ITS APPLICATION.
 I JUST FEEL THAT THE KUBOTA FITS IN BEST ALL AROUND THE FARM AND MILL...... I GUESS ITS JUST PERSONAL PREFERENCE.....
 I STILL HAVE THE 8N AND THE CUB THEY WERE MY GRANDFATHERS AND HE GAVE THEM TO ME WHEN I STARTED FARMING....... I WILL PASS THEM ON IN MY LATER DAYS....... THE OTHERS ALL WENT AS THEY BECAME OBSELETE ---- GOT OUT OF DAIRY FARMING--
GOT OUT OF HAYING AND RENTED OUT THE FIELDS,, HEADED FOR THE WOODLOT AND NOW IM HANGING OUT AT THE SAWMILL...... I'LL SEE HOW LONG THAT LASTS.....MAY GET BACK INTO HAYING.... WINTER HAY IS BRINGING $4.00 A BALE OR BETTER AROUND HERE
AND CONSTRUCTION HAY WILL BRING $2.50 OR BETTER YEAR ROUND. ;) THE 2000 4610 KUBOTA WILL BE AROUND FOR A WHILE AND I WILL ADD ANOTHER KUBOTA W/ CAB ETC 80 HP OR BIGGER NEXT YEAR
 

hawby

Bull,

Sounds like a fair amount of tractor time. You got me to thinking about all the tractors I have used or driven:

JD: A, B, 50, 60, 650, 70, 730, 770, 3010, 3020, 4010, 4020, 4320, 5020
Farmall: BN, M, Super M, 200, 706
Case: 970, 1070, 1370, 430, 520C Hoe
Oliver: 77, Super 88, 1600, 1750, 2255 (3208 Cat MFWD) 8)
White: 105-2
M-M: 605, Jet Star 3, ZB
Cat: ??? 4x4 hoe

We used to farm 500 acres of our own and sharecropped or customed another 500. Used to average 1000 small bales a day. Thanks to Pres. Peanut, I gave up in ' 77 and worked for a big dairy. Dad has managed to hang on to the 400 acres we have now. He rents the cropland and pasture out. He clears more than when we farmed  ???
Like you, I wouldn't mind going back to haymaking. It is a lot different now, pricewise. We'll see what it looks like when I retire.
Glad you have good luck with the Orange tractors. I hear that they are real strong, and the tractoors themselves are reasonable price. I also hear that the attachments are not as well made, but cost more than comparable Green ones. Can' say for sure, as you see, no Orange experience.
Have a great weekend... I am fighting one of those DanG Summer colds :'(

Hopin' to get my new BobKitty tomorrow 8) 8) 8)
hawby
Hawby

Missin' loggin', but luvin' the steady check...

AndyB

Want to thank all of you for your input/suggestions on tractors and safety.  Especially safety.  If you have ever moved a J79 jet engine on the front of a forklift in sea state 4, hangar deck of aircraft carrier, you appreciate safety.  No cushion left on the seat after that event  :D :D :D :D :D.

I'm still sorting all the input out and will make a decision shortly.  Of course I have to talk it over with my chief financial officer (she has had my checkbook for the last 46 years) and of course I will have to explain what I am going to do with the other two tractors that I already own.  I have a KabotaB6100 with front loader and backhoe but is small in horsepower.  I love that machine but might have to part with it as a trade-in.  That leaves a little JD318 with grooming mower,tiller and snowblade attachments to dispose of.

LeeB

I've got a ford 850 w/ FEL. Works great for me. What it can't lift, I cant saw on my TK 1200 anyway. Welld a couple of hooks on the back of the bucket and use a chain to lift with. No worry about the log rollinf over the bucket. LeeB
'98 LT40HDD/Lombardini, Case 580L, Cat D4C, JD 3032 tractor, JD 5410 tractor, Husky 346, 372 and 562XP's. Stihl MS180 and MS361, 1998 and 2006 3/4 Ton 5.9 Cummins 4x4's, 1989 Dodge D100 w/ 318, and a 1966 Chevy C60 w/ dump bed.

Ed_K

 What do you all think of the Mahindra's, we have dealer's poping up everywhere, here in the northeast.
 Ed K
Ed K

Tom

We've had Jap, Indian, czek, yugoslvian, Chinese, Russian and all manner of tractors try to get a foothold around here and they all fail for lack of parts and service.

I think I would shop for a proven Jap tractor like a Kubota or an American/Jap-made like New-Holland (Ford), MF or John Deere and let someone else test the market for the new imports.

arj

Mahindra a real nice tractor, they also stand behind them even if you are over useing them
                                                      arj

Larry

Don't know a thing about Mahindra tractors other than they have some mega bucks in there advertising budget.  Their ads are on every C&W station in the Midwest 3 times an hour.  (Move over John Deere)
Larry, making useful and beautiful things out of the most environmental friendly material on the planet.

We need to insure our customers understand the importance of our craft.

biziedizie

Kabota, had 3 of them and couldn't kill any of them. Never maintained them either, no oil changes or filters or anything like that. Had a Kabota lawn tractor that had 4 wheel steering and hydrostatic drive, sold it for 500 less then I paid for it. They do hold their value and have a good name.
  Stick with diesel, better power and easy to work on.

     Steve

AndyB

Decision made.  Got my New Holland TC35 4X4 W/16LA quick release loader and quick attach bucket and forks yesterday ;D ;D ;D.  Lift at max. height 1800 lbs, breakout 3186 lbs.  Also got a few things for the rear e. g. 72" grooming mower, 60" tiller.

Got a good deal on my Kabota as a trade-in and sold the JD318 to a friend.

Now if I can get the Chief Financial Officer to swing for a backhoe I'll be all set.

  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

hawby

Cool deal Andy,

Bet you are outside playin' late into the night, huh?

Love to see pics!

hawby
Hawby

Missin' loggin', but luvin' the steady check...

AndyB

hawby:

You're right about that, but had to put it in the shed because of rain.  Tomorrow is suppose to be sunny so will put it through its paces.

I'm an apprentice novice when it comes to cameras and getting it into my computer to upload.  I have not purchased a digital yet because I just don't know what features to look for and the prices go all over the place.  Do you have any recommendations?  What camera do you use and what software package?  As I said: I don't know zip.

AndyB

hawby

Andy,

I have an Olympus C-700. It has a 10X optical zoom, 27x digital zoom. It has a bunch of options that I have only started to learn after almost two years. Bought it when the daughter was born.

I like the quality of pictures it takes. Almost as good as the wife's Nikon, at half the cost. I get to delete any pics I don't like, and no development costs.

Get a big hard drive though  :D Also, get a flashcard or two. Really ups the number of pics you can take. As far as software, I just use the one that came with it, or Microsoft PictureIt, or once in a while I use PrintShop Photo Express. They all have different options.

I am sure that NH Blue will look real good  ;D

enjoy and be careful

hawby
Hawby

Missin' loggin', but luvin' the steady check...

woodmills1

to buy stuff go to       http://www.cnet.com/    to check it out
James Mills,Lovely wife,collect old tools,vacuuming fool,36 bdft/hr,oak paper cutter,ebonic yooper rapper nauga seller, Blue Ox? its not fast, 2 cat family, LT70,edger, 375 bd ft/hr, we like Bob,free heat,no oil 12 years,big splitter, baked stuffed lobster, still cuttin the logs dere IAM

AndyB

hawby

Thanks for the info.  I'll check it out.  Yea, blue is my favorite color along with gold.  Can't let go of my navy background ;D.

woodmills1
.
I'll check it out as soon as I do a little more research.

Ron Scott

The sign on this "burial" display at the edge of large farm I frequently pass reads: "This Farm Uses John Deere Tractors."

On a nearby post, another sign reads: "Deere Parking Area, All Others Will Be Towed Away."


~Ron

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