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New federal minimum wage.

Started by LeeB, August 08, 2008, 07:09:43 PM

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LeeB

What does everyone think about the new minimum wage? IMHO it sounds great but I don't see how it works out. Sure the paycheck is bigger but the money has to come from somwhere and that means the product, be it whatever, will have to cost more and will therefore eat up the bigger check. Where's the gain? Higher numbers fpr the tax man?
'98 LT40HDD/Lombardini, Case 580L, Cat D4C, JD 3032 tractor, JD 5410 tractor, Husky 346, 372 and 562XP's. Stihl MS180 and MS361, 1998 and 2006 3/4 Ton 5.9 Cummins 4x4's, 1989 Dodge D100 w/ 318, and a 1966 Chevy C60 w/ dump bed.

Toolman

I'm totally against minimum wage laws. The Wal-Marts, Home Depots, Lowes and other large box stores have been paying way above minimum wage for years. The law does'nt affect them, it's the mom and pop shops it hurts, which in turn drives up prices so that they can maintain their profitability. The job market determines what an individual will earn. Back to supply and demand. If a certain type of job position is needed then wages will be paid according to available qualified individuals. Wages should be paid according to need and individual performance. If a business needs a certain type of employee then a fair wage will be paid to that employee for his/her qualifications and skills. Real Simple. I'm sorry, but fast food and other types of jobs are stepping stone jobs, not career moves. These jobs are mainly held by those entering the work force with intentions on moving on to more skilled and advanced careers . This is just more"feel good"  legislation that benefits nobody.
"A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have" (Thomas Jefferson)

ellmoe

   Toolman, you've got it right.


Mark
   
Thirty plus years in the sawmill/millwork business. A sore back and arthritic fingers to prove it!

StorminN

There is also a big difference in different regions of the country. This was talked about in another thread... for example, minimum wage here in WA state is $8.07 an hour, so kids flipping burgers get that and more... but I think it was Arkansawyer that said that minimum wage is a couple of bucks less there in Arkansas...

-Norm.
Happiness... is a sharp saw.

Ron Wenrich

I believe the federal law only covers those that are employed by multi state businesses like Wal-Mart.  People that have jobs that don't involve interstate commerce are exempt from those laws.  So, people like waitresses can make $2.83/hr like they do here in our state.  Most of them get to keep their tips, and some get to share them.

I remember when $8.07 was a really good wage.  I was a choker setter in Oregon making less than that.  I think it was $5/hr. 
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Toolman

My niece is just starting college and waitresses at a locally owned family restaurant. Ron is right, she only makes a few dollars an hour minimum, but, with tips normally averages above $10.00 hr. Not all waitresses do as well, some do better, some do worse. She said the ones that perform worse make less in tips. She said they are the ones always complaining about not making money and feel that they deserve more. My niece(Morgan) just learned a valuable lesson about life. She now understands you get out of life what you put into it. I could'nt be more proud of her for making that observation on her own. Unfortunately way too many people just don't get it.
"A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have" (Thomas Jefferson)

Cedarman

My first paying job in 1963 paid 75 cents per hour if you stayed the whole season, about 2 to 3 weeks of detasseling corn.  That bought a big fish sandwich and a quart of A&W root beer and still had 25 cents.  $8.07 just about buys that today with a little change left over.  Most places I know of can't force you to take any job.  So if the pay is too low, then time to figure out how to increase the pay per hour, live on less, work more hours, move to another location, start your own business, get the right education, marry wealth, etc.

I don't know of anyone working for minimum wage around here.  We start after school kids that are 18 at $7.50 and anyone else at $8.00.  If they don't make more soon, then they aren't productive enough and get replaced.
I am in the pink when sawing cedar.

Rocky_J

Did anybody notice that the new unemployment numbers that came out this week showed a .2% jump in unemployment last month? Do you think that the higher minimum wage requirement might have anything at all to do with that?

If you've been working for more than 2 years and you're still making minimum wage, you're doing it wrong.  ;)

Tom

There's two ways of looking at Minimum wage.  Some neer-do-wells or those starting out, look at it as a living wage and the Government gave them a raise.  They don't stop to think of the three or four other workers who were let go so that they could get that Gov. Raise.

The other way of looking at it is from the side of the Employer.  If he's big enough, he sees it as "that's all I have to legally pay them."

Legislation isn't the answer-all.

easymoney

how things have changed, or gone up over the years. i remember back about 1965 i worked as a welder on a construction job one summer. it was a union job i was under an electrical union because i was making an electrical connection. the union scale was $4.55 an hour. overtime paid double. i thought i was getting rich  i paid all my debts and started my own business with what i made that summer. :)

Toolman

If the government wants to do us a favor at the end of the week they are currently doing it the wrong way. The best way to give us ALL a raise is quit spending money on pork, balance the budget and quit forcing us into government programs. All of this will make the U.S. dollar stronger. That's the secret, a stronger U.S. dollar. A dollar today is'nt worth squat. I was in Cozamel, MX on a diving trip 2 wks ago and could,nt believe how much more valuable the Euro was compared to our dollar. I never seen anything like that before. If you don't believe that then checkout why crude prices dropped $10.00 last two days. It was reported that the dollar hit a 5 month high, which in turn, lowered crude prices. If that trend continues, other products on the shelf will drop too.

Have a good week everybody, I'm heading south to the Outer Banks for a week. I hear red snapper and flounder are biting.
"A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have" (Thomas Jefferson)

Ron Wenrich

Taking a look at the fair tax wouldn't hurt either.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

ellmoe

   If having a minimum wage is a good thing, why not make it a true "livable" wage. Let's say $50,000/year for everyone. Think how properous we will all be! ;D  I'm sure that the price of products we buy will not increase to match the increased buying power of the public nor the increased expenses to create those products. Good times for all! 8) 8) 8)

Mark
Thirty plus years in the sawmill/millwork business. A sore back and arthritic fingers to prove it!

tcsmpsi

I do not feel that government should be setting wage standards.  One, it is not their job.  Two, they don't have a clue to the reality of the average person's life and what it takes for minimum existence.

I do hear a lot about how it adversely affects this business and that business.

If any business can not afford to pay their employees what the government sets out as a 'minimum wage', they're not solvent enough to afford the employees they have. 

Today, it's not just 'entry level' people who find themselves working at minimum wage jobs.  The government's implemented minimum wage would not make a living for anyone, or even close to it.  Perhaps, as a supplement to retirement.

At today's federal minimum wage, if a person has to travel any distance to work that job, it will not even pay
the travel expense of owning, feeding, maintaining and insuring a vehicle.

A person stepping out in the world today, that $50,000 a yr. mentioned, will not go far and represents nearly $25 an hr. wage.  That being said, it would be a more appropriate starting wage.

Our young folks, who start with nothing, or even older folks who have lost what they had (a growing concern), who have to pay for everything they require, are in a pickle.

The majority of the wage, has been going more and more to the top, rather than to the production (consumer) from which it is generated.

When the average consumer can't consume, business falters and 'credit' becomes a false foundation.
\\\"In the end, it is a moral question as to whether man applies what he has learned or not.\\\" - C. Jung

metalspinner

QuoteAt today's federal minimum wage, if a person has to travel any distance to work that job, it will not even pay
the travel expense of owning, feeding, maintaining and insuring a vehicle.

Then that means that person is living above their means.  Our population still has not learned the lesson of going "without."  In our country poverty comes with an apartment, an SUV, and a line of credit.  Sure, we have people that are legitimately down on their luck, but that is what non-profit groups like churches are for - not the government. Busting your a$$ with a second job or doing without is not the way many folks see their way out of trouble. IMO.

Minimum wage jobs mean a person can show up and do the absolute minimum amount of work (or less) and still get paid.  As mentioned by others, these positions should entry level or supplemental at best.  If the government wants to put more money in our pockets, they should stop spending what they already take from us. >:(

I do what the little voices in my wife's head tell me to do.

thedeeredude

I don't believe the Constitution gave the legislature authority to set wages for privately owned companies. 

The one place I worked was commission, a base rate of something like 5 an hour and whatever commission you got.  So if you didn't sell anything they had to pay you minimum wage.  The people who stood around talking or went to hide got a pay raise.

Gary_C

I am really surprised at all the opposition to the minimum wage laws. Now I do hate government interference in business as much as anyone, but there are some issues where government intervention is essential and minimum wage is one of those issues.

You have to look no further than the growing disparity between the "wages and compensation" of the CEO"s of these large corporations and the workers that actually do the work to enable the profits. There have been many attempts in recent years to establish a ratio of the wage of the lowest paid worker and the executives of these large companies and they all have been unsucessful. Corporate boards have been criticized for failing to reign in these excessive compensation plans but for the most part, these boards are stacked with cronies from other companies that have no interest in holding back executive compensation.

So unfortunately it falls on the shoulders of the government to try to set some sort of minimum wage and they will always do a lousy job of it, but at least it is something to keep the heads of these large companies from keeping all of the money for themselves. And increases do eventially get passed on to the states.
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

SwampDonkey

I remember when $5 for mowing two hours behind a push mower seemed like good money. $2 an hour is all I got when I first worked on hours, before that it was $0.35 based on piece work. I was only 7 years old and if I was going to have a bicycle it was going to be from my own labour.  ;)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

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2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

crtreedude

Perhaps what we need is not a minimum wage, but a maximum gap. What I mean is the lowest paid person in the company can only be n times less than the pay of the highest paid person. This is what is hurting the USA right now in my opinion. People should be able to make as much as they can, but not by starving the workers.

This would do much, much more. If the CEO wants a new yacht, well, the water that is the company is going to have to rise to raise EVERYONE'S salary - not just his.

How much someone makes should be based  on how well the company is doing, not how well the government thinks they should be doing. Unions shouldn't be negotiating for higher wages, just a fair percentage.

I sure don't like hearing about owners and CEOs of companies making more and more money, when those who are the workers, don't share in it. And for those who do not know, I am a business owner.
So, how did I end up here anyway?

beenthere

Quote from: crtreedude on August 09, 2008, 12:39:03 PM
Perhaps what we need is not a minimum wage, but a maximum gap. What I mean is the lowest paid person in the company can only be n times less than the pay of the highest paid person. This is what is hurting the USA right now in my opinion. People should be able to make as much as they can, but not by starving the workers.

This would do much, much more. If the CEO wants a new yacht, well, the water that is the company is going to have to rise to raise EVERYONE'S salary - not just his.

How much someone makes should be based  on how well the company is doing, not how well the government thinks they should be doing. Unions shouldn't be negotiating for higher wages, just a fair percentage.

I sure don't like hearing about owners and CEOs of companies making more and more money, when those who are the workers, don't share in it. And for those who do not know, I am a business owner.

crtreedude
Is We meaning CR as in Costa Rica ??

I'd say what is hurting our US is the likes of illegals working for cheap on the side (and sending that money out of circulation here), and also our taxes used for paying many in the form of subsidies and food stamps (only now they just get a credit card to use). AND these latter recipients get to vote, so it obviously perpetuates the give-away, no-need-to-work mentality.

I heard when Ben and Jerry's Ice cream Co. started in VT, they claimed they would share all the profits proportionately with the employee's. I have heard since, that it didn't stay that way for long when they grew, but don't know the particulars.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Tom

The Government is interested in creating and expanding a minimum wage, but they don't touch a Maximum wage policy.  Everyone figures that the Government is the neutral, benevolent big brother.  In fact, the government is looking out for itself.  The higher the wages the more the tax gross. If you can make the big boys give more money to the little boys then you not only look like a hero but get more money from both ends of the spectrum.  If you let the big boys rule the roost, then their won't be all those dollars at the bottom and the guys at the top will wiggle out through the loop holes.   By encouraging a mandated minimum wage, the government temporarily creates and  controls a class insurrection.

Minimum wage can also put a ceiling on what business has to pay workers too.

It is argued that business doesn't have workers best interest at heart, but, workers don't necessarily have their companies best interest at heart either.  Without getting into that old "sweat shop" arguement, you can see what mandated salaries and benefits have done to the American automobile industry.  It creates a tail-wagging-the-dog syndrome.

thedeeredude

Incredibly high wages of the officials while the workers get the shaft are unethical, but the federal government has no, zero, null authority to create a minimum wage.

crtreedude

Quote from: beenthere on August 09, 2008, 12:59:35 PM

crtreedude
Is We meaning CR as in Costa Rica ??


Nope, this time we meant the USA. Here in Costa Rica we have a minimum wage for just about everything - and the result is that everyone makes the minimum for their job discription. A person with 20 years experience doesn't make that much more than a person with 2.

Not sure I agree with that, and we don't pay that way either.

So, how did I end up here anyway?

crtreedude

Quote from: Tom on August 09, 2008, 03:44:52 PM
It is argued that business doesn't have workers best interest at heart, but, workers don't necessarily have their companies best interest at heart either.  Without getting into that old "sweat shop" arguement, you can see what mandated salaries and benefits have done to the American automobile industry.  It creates a tail-wagging-the-dog syndrome.

I would definitely agree with this. Unfortunately there is way too much of the "well I got mine" mentality instead of realizing we are all in this together.

So, how did I end up here anyway?

tcsmpsi

Quote from: metalspinner on August 09, 2008, 09:57:59 AM
QuoteAt today's federal minimum wage, if a person has to travel any distance to work that job, it will not even pay
the travel expense of owning, feeding, maintaining and insuring a vehicle.

Then that means that person is living above their means.  Our population still has not learned the lesson of going "without."  In our country poverty comes with an apartment, an SUV, and a line of credit.  Sure, we have people that are legitimately down on their luck, but that is what non-profit groups like churches are for - not the government. Busting your a$$ with a second job or doing without is not the way many folks see their way out of trouble. IMO.

Minimum wage jobs mean a person can show up and do the absolute minimum amount of work (or less) and still get paid.  As mentioned by others, these positions should entry level or supplemental at best.  If the government wants to put more money in our pockets, they should stop spending what they already take from us. >:(



Minimum wage won't get any of those things.  

Actually, minimum wage earners, are notoriously driven to much higher production levels of actual work.  Holding a minimum wage position is very demanding.  The proverbial scrapple always runs downhill.    When a board of directors demands more profits, that goes to the next level on down until it hits the bottom, where it has nowhere else to go.   That's what all the rest is built on.  Those at the bottom.

Minimum wage earners can not live any other way except 'beyond their means'.  A lot of minimum wage earners work extra jobs.  

All are not able to live close to their jobs, nor to be very choosey about their transportation.  The average American lives a much lower standard than 'middle class'.  

"Doing without" is a matter of perception.  

I know what my wife and I make.  It is not 'middle class', but it is well above 'official poverty level'.  We don't have much, but we don't have rent or a mortgage...do have ever-growing property taxes, though.  No boat, 4-wheelers, or that kind of stuff.   For my wife and myself, a 'big night out', is not getting called out in the middle of the night.  We have two teens yet at the house, one of which just graduated and has job applications out all over...for one of those 'minimum wage jobs.  

We eat, live, sleep very simply.  We are extravagant in that we do, my wife and I, like coffee.  I know the changes we have seen in the last year.

The daughter and one of her friends were looking at getting a place together.  It didn't take them long to add it up and see that even with two of them working and sharing, they couldn't afford the minimum cost of living.

It is nothing like when I graduated, moved and started school and a 'minimum wage' job to sustain myself.

Cost of living (even the most simple basics) has far outreached the  'minimum wage' increase.

My wife's management salary has only been seeing a 1.5-3% annual increase, falling far behind cost of living increase.  They've added constraints and changed the quarterly bonuses, to trimester bonuses.  

All business is based in some type consumer end.  "Doing without" also means smaller consumer base/fewer sales/fewer businesses/less employees, etc.

I still find it...incredulous...when 'economists', etc. begin talking taxes, all based in federal taxes, and going right along with analysis and possible plan formulations, as if state and local taxes/permits/fees etc. don't even exist.

"Well, let's see, we take 40% for federal taxes and shore this up....

Once all other taxes are taken out, the average wage dollar will be a negative.

Must be some of that "new math".....
\\\"In the end, it is a moral question as to whether man applies what he has learned or not.\\\" - C. Jung

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