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Certification and $$$$$$$

Started by jim king, July 26, 2008, 09:51:03 AM

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jim king

Has anyone had the experience or heard of anyone being paid more for certified  lumber ??


Fla._Deadheader


All I can offer, is, there are many lumber marketing sites out there, that seem to cater only to "Certified lumber" suppliers.  As you stated, Fake outfits, "Save the Forest" types, have put a big dent in "tropical" lumber sales. That's part of why I was in contact with you, about Marketing ???
All truth passes through three stages:
   First, it is ridiculed;
   Second, it is violently opposed; and
   Third, it is accepted as self-evident.

-- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

SwampDonkey

Quote from: jim king on July 26, 2008, 09:51:03 AM
Has anyone had the experience or heard of anyone being paid more for certified  lumber ??



Not even a dime more and that is the way they have pushed these certification schemes. Don't expect more on price, just expect a market for your wood and we don't even guarantee that.  :-\
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

MemphisLogger

It's immediate-demand driven--if a contractor has been spec'd by his client to use certified, then a premium will be paid to get the material in hand to meet deadline.

Wholesale isn't usually any higher because not a whole lot of wholesalers want to go through the requirements to inventory it.
Scott Banbury, Urban logger since 2002--Custom Woodworker since 1990. Running a Woodmizer LT-30, a flock of Huskies and a herd of Toy 4x4s Midtown Logging and Lumber Company at www.scottbanbury.com

Ron Wenrich

If anyone was making any extra money at it, there would be more people having their woods certified.  Either its not worth the hassle, or there isn't any appreciably larger market out there.  I know of no mills or wholesalers that have had even an inquiry about certified stock.

Tropical woods may be different.  Too many people are trying to tell you how to manage your woodlots while they can't even manage their own.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

jim king

I certainly agree with everyones comments especially with the various recent scandals involving the big ones about corrupt certifications.

Here in Loreto State of Peru we are developing our own certification program with the Government which is in self defense to stay out of jail.  If our wood does not now have a chain of custody from stump coordinates to the shipping point it is almost as if we are in the dope business and this now also applies to our buyers in the States with the amended "lacy Act" from june 2008.

It is simply an axtra cost to the end buyer that doesnt know it is built in and thinks that he has already made his contribution to the ecologists to keep them in new shoes.  If there really is inteligent life out there in the universe I wish they would lend us a hand.


Tom

I think that everything sold should be either legal or illegal.  All the "not" legal stuff should carry a stamp identifying it as illegal goods.  It sure would make it easier on the honest people.

zackman1801

"are you sure that cocaine is illegal?"
"Yep its got the stamp right there"
"sweet!"
if only it really were that easy.
"Improvise, Adapt, OVERCOME!"
Husky 365sp 20" bar

Ironwood

Zack,

I believe they call that sarcasm. ;D

Ironwood
There is no scarcity of opportunity to make a living at what you love to do, there is only scarcity of resolve to make it happen.- Wayne Dyer

crtreedude

The only time I am asked about certification is by people who won't end up buying, or some outfit like a big box store who wishes to buy for less than I will sell for.

My feeling is that the only people who are making money on it are those who are doing the certifications.

And I sure don't need it to sell wood.  We are known for following the law and reforesting. And, the laws in Costa Rica are much more strict than the certification. You have to have a chain of ownership or MINAE will visit you someday and shut you down fast.
So, how did I end up here anyway?

zackman1801

Quote from: Ironwood on July 27, 2008, 06:47:28 AM
Zack,

I believe they call that sarcasm. ;D

Ironwood
i understood what he meant, i was just trying to be funny.
"Improvise, Adapt, OVERCOME!"
Husky 365sp 20" bar

Gary_C

Quote from: jim king on July 26, 2008, 09:51:03 AM
Has anyone had the experience or heard of anyone being paid more for certified  lumber ??



Yes, there are a few sawmills that have been paying occasional premiums for FSC certified wood. The premiums paid have been up to $2 per cord on certain species. I am not sure where their markets are for this wood as I believe most of what this mill produces goes into pallets and crating. They will take down to a 6" diameter log.

The paper mills do not pay any premiums for certification, although most are now requiring that all wood from certified sources be identified and chain of custody records be kept. The buyer for one large paper mill I deal with told me it has become a requirement to at least know what percent of the wood they buy comes from certified sources. And Time, Inc as the largest buyer of paper probably in the world is the source of these demands.
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

Tom

I caught the joke Zack  :D  I think ironwood was pulling your chain.  :D :D

Certification, logging rules, comments about foresters destroying the ecosystem and sawyers perpetuating the demise of Forest, as well as the liberal use of non-definable terms like Old Growth and clear cut are used by those who own no land, live in apartments in the middle of a city and don't realize that their statements are foolish.  They haven't studied, what they determine to be, the problems of the world, but only echo the yammerings of the last charismatic bandwagon driver who passed through.

Whether they will admit it or not, they still live in, and perpetuate, the throw-away society that they condemn.  Their musings are all about control, with a capital "C".  They are more concerned that things be done their way than learn what is the right way.  They have no conscience, no tact, no real sense of community, no willingness to learn, nor exhibit any control over their own ecosystem, as small as it might be.  Their rhetoric is always directed at "them", "those", "others"; always someone else or an institution.

Certification is just another means of those who are delving in economic control of others or markets for their own gain.  They are followed by a field of sheep who see prosperity riding on the shoulders of those who actually "make things happen" and want some of it for free.  It's nothing more than the same attitude exuded by the schoolyard bully as he/she takes control of peoples lives.

Bad laws are made by people who haven't the knowledge to know what their ramifications will be on the public.  Some of the people who make bad laws are innocent enough, they just know that it is their job to make rules and don't take the time to learn.  Some are the bullies.  (Hire a consultant and he'll find something wrong.  It's his job.  You expect him to find something wrong or you think he isn't doing his job. He knows that and will, even if his comments ruin the lives of others.)

Those, who want to control others, seldom have nothing themselves.  For example, Why are there self-proclaimed ecologists, from other countries, involved in Lobbying the government of Peru?  Because they are looking at the headlines that gain them notoriety and money they can glean from others, that's why.  It doesn't matter that they are actually a counter-productive force, effecting the lives of the citizens in another country.  Still, they will complain if their privacy fence in their backyard is three inches off of the line.

If someone wants to control my wood through certification of my trees and tell me when I sell and when I can't,  they may have just cut out their opportunity to use my trees.  If they wish to control my farm, my suggestion to them is to put a Realtor on retainer.  They will have a voice in what they own.  :)

Gary_C

Quote from: Tom on July 27, 2008, 11:28:14 AM


Their musings are all about control, with a capital "C". 

Didn't you mean a capital "M" as in money?


Most of these environmental causes exist solely to extract money from the wealthy.


And the next great money extraction scheme is going to be "carbon credits." It's already underway.
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

Tom

I agree that the goal of some is money, but, the goal of their followers is control. Most of the tag-alongs, will not benefit in money directed by the haunchos, but, they get a great satisfaction in knowing that they "made" someone do something.

Samuel

I am aware of only one outfit in Northern Saskatchewan that are receiving a premium for being FSC certified for their lumber.  As far as our organization goes, first we started with ISO 14001 to obtain a certified EMS which has proved business efficiencies and a decline of environmental incidents across our contracting workforce over the past 4 years.  With a certified EMS, we are now in the process of obtaining CSA Z809-02 to enable our Forest Management Area to be deemed as an SFM Forest, and to that end, we will be able to certify our pulp product.

As far as getting a premium for the product, the benefit is an ability to have a market.  We have been told by our major customers (Kimberly Clark, Georgia Pacific, etc), that without this certification, they would not continue to purchase our product after 2009.  Incentive or premium...  its hard to put a price on being able to sell your product.

But like I said, we as an organization have seen the business efficiencies and have been able to show due diligence in at least 10 accounts over the past 4 years, when there was an environmental incident, and we appeased the regulators avoiding enforcement actions. 
____________________________________
Samuel B. ELKINS, RPFT (AB)
Senior Consultant (Owner)
Strategic HSE Systems Inc.
Web: HugeDomains.com - StrategicHseSystems.com is for sale (Strategic Hse Systems)
LinkedIn http://ca.linkedin.com/in/samuelelkins
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SwampDonkey

I have trouble understanding how doing the right and proper thing needs to be certified by other than the laws and regulations of the land. Help me to understand.


"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Ron Wenrich

About 10 years ago I had a phone call from someone who wanted me to give an appraisal on about a half million acres of timber in Africa.  He wanted to know if I could do it from a plane.  I told him I couldn't even identify the trees on land let alone cruise it from the air.

As the discussion went on, he said he represented an investment group.  I told him on a half million acres they could set up a nice sawmill and have a steady stream of income and a pretty good business.  He wanted to know if I thought it could be logged in 3 months.

Apparently, investment groups buy up huge portions of land (probably from governments or government officials), then log off all the timber.  I'm not sure if this is still the practice in Africa or not, but I'm betting it is.  His was not the only investment group doing this.  They were looking to get in on the action.

That showed me how others view the forests of the world.  So, even though Jim and Fred are doing really good work in the tropics, not everyone is of their mindset. 
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

beenthere

Ron
What country in Africa was that??

south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Ron Wenrich

I have no idea.  It sounded like it was one of those small western countries, as they were close to the Atlantic ocean. 
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Tom

QuoteThat showed me how others view the forests of the world.  So, even though Jim and Fred are doing really good work in the tropics, not everyone is of their mindset. 

I understand our wants to make the world right, especially according to our judgement, but I can't help but consider that it is still another country's forest.  Perhaps it is a place for diplomacy but it isn't a place for restrictions or corporate applied embargos.  It's better, in my opinion, for countries to work with countries and for the businesses to stay out of the International Politics.

dnalley

They haven't studied, what they determine to be, the problems of the world, but only echo the yammerings of the last charismatic bandwagon driver who passed through.

  Yom you certainly have a way with the written word.  Cut right to the chase!  Somehow I think you could "cuss a man out" and make him smile about it!  Makes for interesting reading.  Keep up the good work and thanks

Samuel

Quote from: SwampDonkey on July 27, 2008, 05:28:29 PM
I have trouble understanding how doing the right and proper thing needs to be certified by other than the laws and regulations of the land. Help me to understand.




Swamp:

Its easy enough for a company to self declare anything and its easy to say just because I did not get a speeding ticket on my way to work, does not mean it did not speed.  The ENGO's are so powerful in this day in age it is simply amazing.  The complex I work at has been around for 19 years and it used to be when the customers came, they wanted to see the production line in the mill.  Over the past 2-3 years that has shifted, and we are having the Executives of these large companies from KC and GP (etc), come up from the southern regions of the States, to ensure that we are doing what we say we are doing.  The customer (being general public), dictates the market, and having the certification flag, is an easy was to demonstrate you are doing things right.  Don't get me wrong there are comanies flying the flags that are still doing crappy practices, but it is up to the 3rd party auditors to determine if what they are doing, meets the intent of the various standards.

All I know is that I am sure that we are doing what I have committed us to do, and that all of our customers can go away with that comfort.
____________________________________
Samuel B. ELKINS, RPFT (AB)
Senior Consultant (Owner)
Strategic HSE Systems Inc.
Web: HugeDomains.com - StrategicHseSystems.com is for sale (Strategic Hse Systems)
LinkedIn http://ca.linkedin.com/in/samuelelkins
Software Solutions-
DATS | Digital Action Tracking System by ASM

SwampDonkey

Having an NGO audit your work doesn't cover the bases any differently, because the NGO auditors are no more watching every move than the regulators are. If your not operating under the law to begin with, it's either a matter of time before your strung up, or the law and enforcement are useless. Maybe the enforcement are getting kick backs to look away. Who knows? I know here in NB, it doesn't seem to worry government too much as they continue to downsize the DNR and layoff staff. Yeah, the crown land is certified but under the least restrictive and most lenient of certifications and not all licenses follow the same scheme. We have a Maritime FSC, but not a single license following it. And never will as long as industry has all the say in management. With pressure from outside provincial jurisdiction it's possible to make changes to attitudes I suppose. But, changes are real slow to come. This being NB, changes like that move along like the ice age. I don't know of anyone, including myself, that goes to Kent Home building supply and asks for certified or proof of sustainable forestry practices in the production of that piece of lumber. I'm sure there are a handful in the country who do, but they are few.  I have never yet seen a stamp on lumber other than the LGA grading stamp.

I know that GP and LP have been preaching certification, but when wood supply is low priorities shift real quick. They are still buying wood here and not even 1% of woodlots are certified by anyone out of 40% of the forested land base. I guess as long as they see our woodlot representatives looking into it, it suffices the requirements. This has been going on since 1994 and most woodlot owners won't pay a dime toward it. The number of woodlot owners here that would even give it a second thought, you could count on one hand. Heck I see how woodlot management plans where used, so certification hasn't a chance.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

BaldBob

First I need to make it clear that I have a vested interest in certification schemes.  I have in the past (and hope to in the future) gotten work at an attractive day rate to serve on several SFI audit teams. That said, let me point out some of what certification (at least the SFI type that I am most familiar with) is and isn't:

1. There is currently no "green premium" in price - except in very rare circumstances.
2. Certification is a marketing tool to convince the public that forests are being sustainably managed, and to retain markets with the "big boxes" who want to reassure their customers that they are good guys.
3. Large companies that are well managed and efficient already will experience some additional costs in gaining and retaining certification, while companies that were inefficient actually become more efficient and often see costs decline because of the discipline and planning that gaining and keeping certification requires.
4. For most companies that already have ethical practices, gaining and keeping certification is not so much about changing what they do in the woods, but in documenting what they do and in having formal processes in place for their practices.
5. In certifying a company the auditors are checking that:  a.) The company is following both the letter and the spirit of all applicable management laws/rules. b.) The company is doing what it advertises it is doing re: sustainable management. and  c.) The company's management results meet the standards of the certifying group.
6. Auditors make no pretense that they have inspected and monitored every thing the company has done. For instance, their compliance with all laws is in large part based on the legal record and from interviews with compliance agency personnel.  Additionally a representative sample of the company's land management operations for ~ the previous 2 years is thoroughly examined on the ground for compliance with 5 a.),b.) and c.) above.
7. Participation in a certification scheme is voluntary. Although a company that buys your trees/logs/pulp/paper/lumber/etc. may require that your operation be certified in order for you to sell to them,  you are free to sell (or not sell) your product to whomever you choose.  You may not like it (especially if that company is the only reasonable market for your product), but unless you control a significant portion of the supply that company needs, the company will always demand what it deems in its best interest and, if you want to retain them as a customer, you must comply with their demands. The certification demand is no different than any other demand they may make in this regard.


 

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