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Question to Lucas mill owners:update

Started by brdmkr, July 19, 2008, 02:23:20 PM

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brdmkr

I noticed that my mill (618) was really hard to pull when making deep vertical cuts.  I investigated and found that my carriage is moving side to side as it travels down the rails.

When I pull, the carriage shifts to the left.  When I push, it shifts to the right.  This is easy to see when looking at the left wheels (the ones with the wide grooves).  This happens even when the carriage is traveling freely without a log on the bunks. 

Here are the things I have checked out so far.

1.  The rails appear to be straight.  There may be a slight bow due to the middle upright, but it is slight at best.

2.  The wheels on each side of the carriage are the same distance from the carriage frame.

3.  There does not seem to be excessive play in any of the wheels.

4.  Uprights are reasonably square with the rails.

The degree of shift is really odd.  there is about 3/16" shift that occurs within a matter of a couple of feet when changing from pushing to pulling or vice-versa.  This is really giving me fits sawing.  With long logs, the mill has not shifted all the way to the left when entering the log.  This results in some hard sawing, a lot of load on the engine, and FINE sawdust.  Cutting in the horizontal is unaffected, but the cut is about 3/16 too deep.

I am sawing SYP, and normally, I cut through this stuff like hot butter.

What am I missing???????????


Lucas 618  Mahindra 4110, FEL and pallet forks, some cant hooks, and a dose of want-to

Fla._Deadheader


On my peterson, I get the same thing. My wheels are getting worn, and the lips on the narrow groove wheel are laying over.

  I find that pushing on the motor, and pulling with the swinging arm, WHILE pulling slightly on the swing mechanism, helps me a LOT.

  I saw HARD TOUGH stuff, so I have your symptoms much more frequently.

  Also, my tracks just drop down into a bracket that is screwed to 4 X 4's. The brackets are a bit too wide, so, I SHOULD use small wedges to hold the tracks from rocking in the brackets, but I don't.  ::) ::)

  Solution ???  Pay more attention and try to even out the push-pull points on the carriage ???  Don't know much else to do ???
All truth passes through three stages:
   First, it is ridiculed;
   Second, it is violently opposed; and
   Third, it is accepted as self-evident.

-- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

Timburr

Brdmkr, have you ever changed the track wheels (the narrow ones specifically-they keep the head on track)? 

Just a few thou" of extra play in the wheel bearings is magnified by the length of the head.    They may seem ok but further examination will prove otherwise.

The wheel profile also alters, as they get worn trundling up and down the track.   If they have a rounded inner edge or the running gap has enlarged, they are due for replacement.

Yet another track wheel ailment is a sticky or notchy bearing.   This will give tracking maladies.   Even though the bearings are sealed, they still manage to get sawdust in them.   A free-wheel no weight check is a good test!

I trust you are periodically adjusting blade alignment?!  ???
Sense is not common

okie

Brdmkr, same thing here, I just thought it was normal as it did it from the get go. I did find out the problem with my vertical cut going about 1/8" too deep though, one tooth was soldered on just a little high.
Striving to create a self sustaining homestead and lifestyle for my family and myself.

brdmkr

Quote from: Timburr on July 19, 2008, 04:38:14 PM
Brdmkr, have you ever changed the track wheels (the narrow ones specifically-they keep the head on track)? 

I have changed several wheels, but I really don't know which or how many.  I know I have replaced at least one of each type.  Perhaps I should just replace them all.  I have less than 200 hours or so on the mill, I would think they would last longer than that but perhaps not.

The bearings are much looser in the current wheels than in new ones.  I may just bite the bullet and replace them all.   



Quote from: Timburr on July 19, 2008, 04:38:14 PM
I trust you are periodically adjusting blade alignment?!  ???

Every now and again, but this is not an alignment issue as the shift occurs without a log on the bunk.

Interestingly, applying pressure at the middle of either rail, makes the carriage track true.

Okie, glad to hear you got your vertical cut issue figured out.
Lucas 618  Mahindra 4110, FEL and pallet forks, some cant hooks, and a dose of want-to

KnotBB

Sam Bailey told me to be sure and pull the saw from the pull handle and not the cross rail or it will wander.  He had a problem of the saw wandering and called the factory to get the info. 
To forget one's purpose is the commonest form of stupidity.

E.B.

One thing to check is make sure that the mill is square. Normal use will make my mill get out of square and it won't track right making it hard to pull and push. Sometime the simple things get over looked ::)
A day without a Smile is a wasted day

Dakota

What about your side shift brake?  If it is worn, it won't keep your carriage from shifting.
Dakota
Dave Rinker

Timburr

Other tracking issues may be caused by "semi-floating" rails.   The rail mounting plates on the endposts tend to distort with use.   Ideally, the angle betweem the plate face and upright should be slightly less than 90° to ensure the top of the rail sits firmly against the endpost.   If there's a gap, the rail is free to move laterally.

Remedy and there's no reason to bite the bullet for this one.   Select hammer of choice.   Strike  the bracing struts below the rail plates, until they are straight.   Pound the rail locating lip on the  plates upwards until the rails sit snug.   Stand back and admire your handywork!  ;D

Sloppy rail camlocks donate to this symptom too.   By tightening up the rail mount also alleviates loose camlocks.
Sense is not common

Captain

knotbb is right on, with any swingmill, pull from the handle that is centered in the blade in the horizontal.

Captain

Fla._Deadheader


When sawing bigger logs, pulling solely with the center handle, will still pull the saw-carriage to the side. That's what helps wear my wheel flanges. It's not possible to climb the log for the first 2-3 cuts, until I get a decent flat opened up. By then, the vertical cut has wandered out of line. I usually need to take a trim cut, once the flat is opened up, to get back on course.
All truth passes through three stages:
   First, it is ridiculed;
   Second, it is violently opposed; and
   Third, it is accepted as self-evident.

-- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

brdmkr

I do use the handle when pulling.  I have not thought about securing the ends of the rails a little more securely.  That would explain why the carriage tracks well when someone presses in on either rail.  That would likely have the same effect as having the rails held more tightly.

I think I will bend the tray up to better hug the rail AND order new wheels as well.

Dakota,

I do need to tighten my brake a little, but the problem I am having is with the entire carriage shifting.

Lucas 618  Mahindra 4110, FEL and pallet forks, some cant hooks, and a dose of want-to

Firebass

brdmkr,
Just a thought...

When I was building my swingmill I ran into a similar situation.  It ended up being that I had one wheel mounted at a slight angle (not perfectly in line with the rails).  It took me a while to figure it out but once I got down and sighted down the rails I could see the misalignment.   Could It be possible that you bent a wheel...?   

Firebass

brdmkr

I called Doug at Bailey's today.  He told me several things to check.  First, he suggested that I should basically take the mill down and set it up again paying close attention to the saddles being bottomed out on all uprights before installing the rails and make sure everything is 'eyeball' square and parallel.  He also suggested running a string end-to-end on the rails to make sure they were within tolerance, but suggested that it would be very unlikely if that were a problem.  He also suggested that I simply change the blade, suggesting that the blade may need to be retensioned.  I didn't think about it, but he mentioned that the tracking issue with the wide groove was to be expected.  That is why you have a wide and narrow groove.  The wide groove allows the carriage to run true even if there is some bow in the rails.  Makes sense.  I am also going to replace the wheels on the carriage anyway.  I'll keep the old wheels as spares in case of emergency.

One tip that Lucas mill owners (and maybe others) should keep in mind is how the mill is left idle for periods of time.  Doug indicated that you should get the weight off of the rollers if the mill is going to sit for extended periods as the wheels can develop slight flat spots which can affect tracking.  I always just leave everything set up for the next log.  I'll change that now.

I was really impressed by his thoroughness in discussing this issue with me.  I went through all the things that I had checked as well as some of the things mentioned here.  He was really helpful, and it was obvious that he wants my mill to cut well for me.  It was also obvious that he understands these mills.  Just thought I would put in a plug for Doug, Bailey's, and Lucas.

I feel pretty confident that a blade change, setup, and new wheels will have the mill cutting like new.   
Lucas 618  Mahindra 4110, FEL and pallet forks, some cant hooks, and a dose of want-to

WildDog

Thanks for the report back from Baileys brdmkr, some interesting info, I hadn't thought of the wheels developing flat spots.

I am about to replace my 4 wheels, I lent my mill to my neighbour a while back and when I went down in the bush to collect it, and move it to a location on my place, i found the head of the bolt holding a wheel on had broken off, the wheel was still sitting on the frame and track. I was able to extend what was left of the bolt(a threaded rod) and use the nut from my centre support to act as a bolt head allowing me to start milling when I moved it, just glad we picked up on it.
If you start feeling "Blue" ...breath    JD 5510 86hp 4WD loader Lucas 827, Pair of Husky's 372xp, 261 & Stihl 029

brdmkr

WD,

I had a bolt shear myself early on.  It makes for some sloppy lumber if you don't catch it.
Lucas 618  Mahindra 4110, FEL and pallet forks, some cant hooks, and a dose of want-to

Lucas_Mill_Pty_Ltd

Well done Doug

Its good to have someone like Doug at Baileys that you can  just give a call to so he can set you right.

After reading what Doug had to say about the rollers and blade I'm sure you should be right.

To adjust the track support bracket to make the plastic cam lock tighter on the track.  By taking some of the bend out of the steel rod on the under side of the press metal where the track sits should fix it. First pull the cam lock up to take the pressure off the track then give the rod a hit with a hammer to straighten the rod. Keep checking the tension of the cam lock on the track after each hit until you get it tight.

Make sure the end frames are not sitting on soft ground or saw dust. The mill will drop down as the power head travels down the tracks if the ground is to soft. Putting boards under all 4 corners will fix that.

If you are near any of the field days I am travelling to, please feel free to come up and say G'day.

Regards

Peter
Lucas Mill Pty Ltd

brdmkr

Thanks for the advice Peter.  Doug was exceptionally helpful.  I hope to look you up in Moultrie, GA.

Lucas 618  Mahindra 4110, FEL and pallet forks, some cant hooks, and a dose of want-to

Lucas_Mill_Pty_Ltd

Mike,

No problem, I look foward to catching up with you.

It  would be good for you and other existing Lucas Mill owners to check out all our new attachements and accessories.

Model 618 and 830 machines are now fitted standard with a side winding attachment, these can be fitted to all older mills.

We will also be demontrating the Lucas planing disk attachement also.

Regards

Peter

brdmkr

I still haven't run the mill to check it out, but I replaced the blade today.  The old blade had a couple of dark spots, so it may need to be re-tentioned.   I also noticed that I did have a semi-floating rail as suggested by Timmburr and Doug.  It does not float now ;D.  Gnats were too DanG bad ant was getting a little late to cut today, but I'm betting it will cut like a dream.  I'll provide another update once I have evidence.

Thanks to all who provided suggestions.
Lucas 618  Mahindra 4110, FEL and pallet forks, some cant hooks, and a dose of want-to

KnotBB

I've been cutting 8" white oak boards for a customer and was having a hard time cutting the 8" vertical.  Discoverd that one corner of my frame had dropped about 1/2", corrected that and most of the problem went away.  The oak is fresh cut and I was getting thick and thin lumber which is very unusal for a Lucas.  Apparently paralell rails are more important in deep vertical cuts in hard wood.  Hasn't been a problem in soft wood but now I know.
To forget one's purpose is the commonest form of stupidity.

Meadows Miller

Gday

I use to run the first 8 in cut lucas it was a 618 with a 2" alloy collar/spacer that extended the shaft and used longer high tensile saw bolts that extended through the collar with a short locking nut on the end  It worked like a charm i cut about 1500 ton sawn with it over 2 years but I also ran the Kara mill onthe smaller logs cutting about 2000 ton on it aswell . here is some tricks i used to use with the Lucas Mill

Saws I ran a fresh saw down to 1/3 on pine then used the last 3rd up sawing Hardwood as your kerf reduces as you grind the teeth down . this might be the reason the saw is getting hot aswell

I the head unit of each night I also had two strait winding sticks that id put onthe tracks each morning to make sure I had no twist in the track befor I started the next morning . make sure they are the same size and strait as a die.

I used to replace all the guide rollers about every 500 ton sawn

Also I had this happen to me once gearbox bolt became loose and the saw was cutting out of line  ??? made sure the saw teeth where ground square  >:( ??? checkd all the guide rollers  sharpend the saw and before i put the cover back on I grabed the saw and gave it a wiggle  8) problem identified  8) ;D  it was only moving 1 1/20th but the saw had been getting worse all day got it fixed  ;D back to full prod
I supose it had done about 4 to 6000 hrs before my boss brought it it was the second lucas built 92 i think and i cut on it from 2000

Lucas does not condone  putting the 6" to 8" extension on there mills but this mill is still working today as a 6" to 8" cut mill  I use to run the size I needed to cut .

Rguards Chris

4TH Generation Timbergetter

brdmkr

Meadows,

I am glad you brought this back up.  I had failed to post a response as to what the problem was.  After replacing the blade and tightening the saddles for the rail, it is cutting great.  I think the floating rails were the big problem, but the blade had evidence of hot spots and likely needs some attention from a saw doc.
Lucas 618  Mahindra 4110, FEL and pallet forks, some cant hooks, and a dose of want-to

twistface

I dont know just what you mean by dark spots but this can be an indication that your saw and your rails are not in line

Meadows Miller

Gday

Twistface Welcome to the Forum Mate .

The hot spots Brdmkr was talking about usually show up in the inner radius section of the saw this is caused by overheating of the saw caused by one of the following most of the time Missalingnment of the mill, Not enough kerf/set in the saw for the type of timber being cut (eg) H/wood saws have a 1/25th lighter kerf than S/wood saws. Or not enough gullet capacity (eg) if any more than 30% falls past each side of the gullet  causing friction on the body of the saw . a good gullet should carry 40% to 65% of the sawdust out of the cut with out it spilling out the sides .

Twist I hope this answerd Your question  ;D and hope I didnt confuse You ??? ;) ;D

Reguards Chris McMahon
4TH Generation Timbergetter

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