ALGAE POWER? No,... it's not a joke either!

[Fla._Deadheader]

I visited that website, last night, and, I gotta tell ya, it AIN'T the same operation that it was a year ago. He had photos of the Algae Pool and lots of info. Now, looks like a public begging website ???

  The guy went through a fire and some espionage, and might have thrown in the towel, for educating people. If ANYONE could go by the place and visit in person, it MIGHT give us some better outlook.  This is the place that I read Algae was bringing $10.00 + a POUND, dried.  :  It's used in Cosmetics and other applications.

  A lot of different varieties of Algae will NOT make BioDiesel. The oil is more of a hydrocarbon structure, or just plain low yield of normal strains.

[fencerowphil (Phil L.)]

Yeah, FlaD

It looks like they are more into retreats and educational efforts,
than the actual perfection of practical systems:  "Ya'll pay us to
come learn about this, and maybe YOU can do something with it."

On the other hand, it is good to see the combination efforts:  Algae/veggies/fish - all in the same system.
The combination might not create feasible means to produce any one of the three in an efficient way,
but it sounds so... GREEN, huh?

[StorminN]

Has someone posted this already?

Algae based fuels

-Norm.

[fencerowphil (Phil L.)]

StorminN

Took a look:

Quote:

                             "In 1982 it was estimated by Benemann [with NREL?] that the cost of production for a barrel
                          of algal biodiesel was, on average $94...." [calculating a cost from that figure they made this
                          assumption:]  "That would equate to $46.2 billion per year for all the algae farms, to yield all
                          the oil feedstock necessary for the entire country....  Scientists at NREL think that theses new
                          fuels will become competitive by 2010."
SOURCE:   http://www.greenfuelonline.com/gf_files/algaefuel.pdf

Notice that the $94 figure was for the end-result refined biodiesel (just over $3 per gallon)
based upon fairly rudimentary methods in use back then.  This is the first time I have seen
cost analysis of the concept.  Even if we multiply the $46 billion by a factor of ten, that is
still $200 billion less than we are currently sending out of the U.S. for crude oil!
The Nation Renewable Energy Laboratory is restarting their research on
algae biodiesel.  'Bout time!

From what I have studied so far, the scale and facilities for algae biodiesel would be very
capital intensive.  On the other hand, the methods are not as complex as those for coal gasification
or thermal depolymerization.  Neither are the processes for algal oil refining as hazardous.

As long as oil is above $100 a barrel every one of these methods mentioned above is a money maker
and would keep our US dollars HERE!

[StorminN]

Phil,

That Valcent company linked to at the beginning of this thread has offices in Vancouver, BC. I happen to be driving to Vancouver tonight... maybe I'll swing by there if I have time. I wonder if Valcent has anything to do with the 100's of acres of greenhouses just south of Vancouver, where they grow all those "BC Hothouse" tomatoes?

Now for some more math... if an acre of corn can grow 18 gallons of oil, and an acre of algae ponds (never mind the VertiGro system) will grow 20,000 gallons of oil, then you'd have to be growing 1,111 acres of corn to equal the production from one acre of algae. It seems to me an acre pond is not as much capital expense, compared to 1,111 acres of land. And have we seen a figure on how much algae can be grown in one acre of these hothouses? It could very well be twice what an open pond yeilds... let's assume it is... in which case it would take 2,200 acres of corn to equal its production. I think I'd rather tend the one acre greenhouse.

I'll need to read up on this some more...

-Norm.

[fencerowphil (Phil L.)]

It would be interesting to see some cost analysis from such a large greenhouse complex.

[Ron Wenrich]

 A low cost system is being speculated at $45-60K/acre.  The yield is expected in the 100-200 dry tons/acre range.  Feedstock costs would be 8-12¢/lb while the current costs are 25-44¢/lb.  Company name is Diversified Energy.

Current initial investments are $100k - $1m/acre. 

[StorminN]

A low cost system is being speculated at $45-60K/acre.  The yield is expected in the 100-200 dry tons/acre range.  Feedstock costs would be 8-12¢/lb while the current costs are 25-44¢/lb.  Company name is Diversified Energy.

Current initial investments are $100k - $1m/acre. 

... and how many gallons can you make per pound??

-Norm.

[StorminN]

OK, I looked into it a bit further... Valcent has an office here in Vancouver, BC... but their algae facility (greenhouses) are in El Paso, Texas... who on here lives in El Paso?

Valcent algae greenhouses in El Paso

-Norm.

[DanG]

Good link Norm!  Thanks.

They have an impressive facility.  That's pretty neat the way they're growing the algae in plastic bags.  It makes me wonder if you couldn't just lay the bags out in the sun and forgo all the expense of the greenhouse, though.  Of course, that is a research facility, and I'm sure that climate control is important to their findings, but an actual production facility might not require such an elaborate setup.

This new technology is fascinating, and the figures on production per acre are startling.  10,000 gallons per acre per year for algae, versus 68 gallons for soybeans makes a statement that is hard to even comment on!

I've had my own little micro-lab going for years now.  The water trough in my horse pasture is 2.5'x6'x1.5' and I have to scoop the algae out of it on a regular basis.  I have to let it dry up, then dig it out with a shovel.  I've been just throwing it out onto the ground, but I would probably get a wheelbarrow full per month if I saved it.

It seems that everytime I learn something new, I end up with more questions than answers.  For instance, they are growing specific kinds of algae in those "bio-reactors" to get the maximum fuel production.  So, how critical is it to maintain the purity of the crop?  Around here, all you gotta do is maintain some sort of a puddle and algae automatically starts growing in it.  I don't know if it's the right kind.  If it isn't, how would you keep the native kind from interfering with the exotic kind you wanted to grow in an open pond?  That is just one of the many questions that keep popping up in my mind among the ideas. :

I guess the most basic question I have is, how do you extract oil from that stuff.  The dried algae doesn't seem oily at all, to me.  Would you just squeeze the oil out, or would ya have to cook it out?  If ya have to cook it, how much energy would it take to get a gallon of oil?  How much biodiesel would you get from a gallon of oil?

[Tom]

.........and, how much does five pounds of algae weigh? :-\

[DanG]

Wet or dry? :D :D

Five pounds of wet algae, when it is dry, weighs about an ounce, while five pounds of dry algae, when it's wet, weighs about a ton. :

[fencerowphil (Phil L.)]

DanG

There are very specific species used to obtain the most "Algae Oil."  The problem with
the open pond idea is just what you have already suspected:  Contamination by the wrong
species is just like letting weeds go wild in a cultivated field.  The weeds naturally tend to
dominate and you get a crop other than what you need.  Also, in the pond, you have the
problem of virus and bacterial hindrances, just like you can have fungal and insect problems
in that example of the cultivated field.

The terrific yield figures are real, BUT they depend upon a carefully controlled monoculture
in what is called a "closed loop environment."  (You can spell that, "money required up front.")
The loop uses little water, is boosted with nutrients and CO2 (that nasty stuff we now fear), and
uses filtration to constantly harvest the green stuff.

There are specific fresh water, salt water, and waste water species which can yield 30% to
50% oil by weight.   In common language,  "thassalllottahgreazykidstuffin."  I think some of the
diatoms fall into the group of the salty ones.

We at the FF, of course, have our own salty one :  mono-tom  ... Just TOM.

[Fla._Deadheader]

Sumbuddy needs to test some of that RED TIDE Algae, EH ???

[fencerowphil (Phil L.)]

Isn't Red Tide a laundry detergent?

[DanG]

Yeah Phil, it was developed just so you could run yer grey water straight into yer Koi pond. :

FDH, I sure hope that Red Tide doesn't end up to be the "holy grail" of biodiesel.  Boone Pickens and his ilk would render the seven seas a lifeless wasteland for a chance at all that money!  Meanwhile, it wouldn't hurt to scoop up all those dead fish and chunk'em into a methane digester.

[farmerdoug]

Don't forget to squeeze the oil out of the fish first. ;)

[StorminN]

It would be interesting to see some cost analysis from such a large greenhouse complex.

Phil, I tried to get some pictures of the big greenhouses just south of Vancouver, BC while I was driving past them today... but I'm not a good photographer at 60mph, so I figured I'd just post a link to them in Google maps and let you guys look at them there. Check out the size of the cars in the parking lot of this one, and the tractor trailer on the highway just north of it, for scale. I believe they grow BC Hothouse tomatoes here. (and if these greenhouses are worth building for tomatoes, I bet they are worth building for algae oil!) This is just one set of greenhouses, there are big ones in the area... zoom out to see the others.

Satellite picture of greenhouses south of Vancouver, BC

10,000 gallons per acre per year for algae, versus 68 gallons for soybeans makes a statement that is hard to even comment on!

Dan, the figures Glen Kertz states in the Valcent VertiGro video are:
corn - 18 gallons of oil per acre per year
palm trees - 700 to 800 gallons per acre per year
algae - 20,000 gallons per acre per year IN AN OPEN POND SYSTEM... he doesn't state how many gallons per acre he could yield with their vertical growing system, but I'm guessing it could be four times that or more, based on the square footage involved and the fact that the growing algae doesn't block sunlight for the other algae, like it does in the open pond system.

Here's the video again:
Valcent Vertigro algae video

How much biodiesel would you get from a gallon of oil?

Dan, if this oil is like the rest of the oils that people make biodiesel from, it's almost 1 to 1... 10 gallons of oil = 10 gallons of biodiesel. The most important question for me at this point is, what's the gelling temperature of biodiesel made from the best algae oil feedstock?

-Norm.

[Tom]

I think it's a communist plot.  :P

[Ron Wenrich]

I found these numbers on a website.  Under optimum conditions, algae will produce 4 lbs/sq ft which would yield 15,000 gallons.  I'm not sure if that is wet pounds or dry pounds. 

Converting that 4 lbs/sq ft, the yield is about 175,000 lbs/acre.  So the yield is 1 gallon to about 11 2/3 lb of algae.

The other thing I'm not certain is how much of the oil they expect to reclaim.  The reference made was that some algae was 60% fats, and that could be pressed with a 70% return. 

http://oakhavenpc.org/cultivating_algae.htm

[Don P]

Don't know if or how it relates but crude oil comes from algae. We call it dead dinosaurs but its really dead algae. It has to sit at about coffee temperature for a good long while to make. Pressure isn't that critical from my understanding, the temperature window is pretty critical and I know nothing about minimum time as most of it has been down there for millions of years. Geologists searching for places to drill are looking through the fossil record for particular colors relating to temperature, white is too cool, amber is just right, black was too hot. The Appalachians overshot the thermal window when we bumped into Africa and apparently carry the remains of what would be the equivalent of alot of scorched butter, carbon with the hydrogen and oxygen driven off. To quote the book I was reading tonight "natural gas is to petroleum what politicians are to statesmen".  The point was that anything organic that dies makes gas so its easy to get, it takes special conditions to make crude petro oil. Just an aside that probably only relates by the word algae  .

[fencerowphil (Phil L.)]

"natural gas is to petroleum what politicians are to statesmen". 

Don P
Are you trying to make us bust a gut laughing, or what?

An alternate explanation of the continental shelf sources is that the tremendous continental run-off
created the mega-dumps under those shelves. 
            In other words,...
                       World wide cataclysm involving bombardment by sections of a comet,
                                 tectonic troubles which release huge quantities of water
                                 from the crust of the earth, and terrific rain.  Commonly called "Noah's Flood."
                        Globe was demolished and flooded.  Jets of supercritical water killed quintillions
                                 of algae and other creatures creating oil and fossil beds.  Fossils, fossil graveyards, etc.
                                 and coal beds sorted by lensing effects, liquifaction effects.
                         Near the end of the event, tectonic action raised continents while ocean
                                 basins subsided and filled with the run-off.
                        Plant life buried by the trillions of tons in many different ways, suddenly.
                        Ice age sets in due to effect of cometary ice and volcanic activity.
                                Over the next few hundred years most of the ice melts back, the oceans
                                 rise, and the continental shelves are flooded over, along with the
                                 sunken cities found in many parts of present oceans.

We know that coal and oil can be man-made in just hours, so why do we believe that it takes millions of years?
                       

[Don P]

It was the authors light hearted way of saying it is easy to make natural gas but that it takes much more precise conditions to make oil.

I know nothing about minimum time

Simply the temperature of the algae for some, unknown to me, period of time.

If you know how to process algae to crude in hours I'm certainly listening 

Adding an O to natural gas makes a liquid fuel also.

I didn't intend to sidetrack us, carry on  .

[DanG]

To quote the book I was reading tonight "natural gas is to petroleum what politicians are to statesmen". 

:D :D  That's a great analogy, Don!  After all, we're only trying to get a little hot air, anyway.  We can manufacture all the natural gas and politicians we want.  After all, they're both made of BS. ;D

[fencerowphil (Phil L.)]

Don,
I laughed out loud when I read that quote.  I did get it:  True statesman rare and hard to breed; politicians
                                                                                   a dime a dozen.

The process called "Thermal Depolymerization" will turn polyethylene, neoprene,
turkey guts, garbage, and even algal oil into diesel and burnable gases in just hours.

Company  :   CWT  Changing World Technologies
Subsidiary :    RES    Renewable Energy Systems (?Services?)
Privately held.  [Shucks!]

Key man :  Brian Appel

Pilot plant in Philadelphia
Joint venture with Conagra in Carthage, MO at their "Butterball" plant.
Producing 250,000 gallons of refined diesel per month from turkey waste as of Ap. 2007.
Cost per BARRELL after refining = $80 !

This one is not a dream.  They are making product at a feasible price.
The hitch with algae right now seems to be linking all the possibilites
together.  Independent researchers and inventors just have to be
linked by some venture capital entrepreneur and we will be in business,
even without the T. Boone plan.  Appel is probably just such a guy.

An interview with Appel which I read said,  "it takes millions of years for the
earth's processes to produce oil, but we are doing it in just hours."   If they
had at least entertained the alternate interpretation of oil geology (The Flood), 
scientists might have found these processes much sooner.  Their bias/belief
that it took millions of years could have served as a blinder of sorts.  Of course,
this alternative explanation is never studied in probably 99% of the schools of
the world today.  Too bad we are stuck in only one unproven groove.

CWT's proof-in-the-pudding is to "millions of years to make coal and oil,"
as Mt. St. Helen's "Little Grand Canyon on the Tootle River" is to the bigger Grand Canyon.
Both seem to say that things we thought took millions of years can happen in just hours.
(That "Little Grand Canyon" happened in one night.  It was over in the morning.)


P.S.  Refining algal oil is far less complex than the job of converting the stuff CWT works with.