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maple baseball bat controversy

Started by Greg, June 25, 2008, 12:49:06 PM

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Greg

Anyone following the recent controversy surrounding maple baseball bats?

More and more it is being suggested that maple bats shatter more easily than ash, and some are suggesting they be banned from major league baseball.

Here's a recent story of an umpire on the wrong end of a broken maple bat:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/baseball/mlb/06/25/umpired.injured.ap/index.html

Anyone here sell billets or otherwise supply lumber to this industry? Not sure how many bats are still manufactured here, and where the raw material comes from...

For all I know, Louisville Sluggers could be made in Shanghai these days ::)

Greg

pigman

QuoteFor all I know, Louisville Sluggers could be made in Shanghai these days
The wooden bats for the major leagues are still made in Louisville I think. My understanding is that most, if not all, the ash for their bats comes from Pa.
Things turn out best for people who make the best of how things turn out.

KGNC

While the maple may be more prone to breaking I believe the bigger problem is the smaller diameter of the handle. They are trying to move so much of the mass out into the barrel that the handles are way to small. The maple may also make the situation worse because it can be more dense than ash.
But it was never a problem for me, it's hard to break bats when all you swing are strikes.  bat_smailey  ;)

Greg

I tend to agree. Maple may be getting a bum rap here...

The smaller and smaller diameter handles are simply going to result in more bats broken, regardless of species.

But from what I've read - for whatever reason - the ash bats are not flying apart as commonly and as violently as the maple. I think I read the ratio of maple to ash bats is nearly 50/50 these days, where 20 years ago almost all bats were ash!

I know in the olden days, Hickory was a very common wood for bats, but I guess its not really used anymore due to its weight.

Anyone know the density/strength numbers for maple vs. ash vs. hickory.

Also, I wonder if the maple used for bats is soft or hard?

Full of questions, few answers, as usual...
Greg

Tom


SwampDonkey

I can't for the life of me figure out the high incidence of maple bats shattering. I have taken 3 inch hard maple, placed it on a slant and jumped up and down on it and it never will give. You just bounce. Any maple whips I've seen in the woods that ruptured from logging never breaks off unless tramped to death with several loads of logs drug over it. And it splintered at the break and doesn't snap off like a fir tree. I don't know where they are getting the maple for it to break off like a stick of fir.  Let me inspect that piece of maple to see if it is indeed hard maple. ::)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

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BaldBob

There is a huge difference in the way green wood responds to stress and breaks, and the way dry wood of the same species does.

SwampDonkey

The stick I jumped up and down on was air dried several months. I still say the characteristic break of a wood species is the same green or dried. What I mean is, I'll bet the hard maple doesn't break off like a stick of fir and I bet it's splintery to.  Of course once it's beginning to rot in the woods it with break differently. Likely so for a bat that the kids left in the weather for a few ball seasons and neglected to bring home each time and stand in the closet. How many dads or sons ran over the bat with the mower that got tossed in the grass. ;) :D
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Greg

I just read one explanation this afternoon, related to moisture content.

An author suggested that ash, is more pliable and breaks less violently than maple because it absorbs (atmospheric) moisture more easily and therefore has wetter and more pliable fibers, vs. maple which apparently stays dryer even in humid conditions ???

Not sure if thats plausible or not... can't remember where I saw it, although you can find a bunch via googling "ash vs. maple bats".

Greg

isawlogs

 Swampdonkey ....  I have taken 3 inch hard maple, placed it on a slant and jumped up and down on it and it never will give.
Try jumping on a 1 1/4"  diameter peice of maple, they dont break at the barrel end .. they break at the handle . I dont know how much you weight , but I am sure you need at least three of you jumping on a 3" peice of maple to even crack it some .  ;)
A man does not always grow wise as he grows old , but he always grows old as he grows wise .

   Marcel

jeffreythree

I do not think the problem is that the maple breaks more often, though it does seem to.  They have narrowed down that it is the grain types that are causing the catastrophic failures.  Ash is interlocking grain so it cracks and splits when it fails, but tends to hold together.  Maple is not interlocking so when the batting force breaks the bat, it cause the bat to break on a single plane.  This sends large projectiles flying until something gets in its way.  By the way, MLB tried to ban it already but the players union struck it down.  The clinical tests show that maple and ash bats apply the same force to a baseball,  almost exactly alike.  Players on the other hand insist that maple causes the ball to jump off the bat.
Trying to get out of DFW, the land of the $30,000 millionaires.  Look it up.

SwampDonkey

Ash doesn't have interlocked grain and is definitely not a trait to look for in wood used as a bat. It weakens both bending strength and stiffness. Splitting dry ash with an axe is a lot easier than splitting dry hard maple I guarantee it. If ash had interlocked grain you would get the typical ribbon figure in the wood and pound your guts out trying to split it.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

leweee

when I was a youngen......they taught use to hold the bat with the label up(label was placed on the flat grain of the bat) so you always hit the ball on the edge grain side of the bat. I wonder if the manufacturers still do this & if this info has been passed on to today's players. :P
just another beaver with a chainsaw &  it's never so bad that it couldn't get worse.

Tom

I don't think it is information that is offered as stringently as it used to be.  I've had conversations with teens who don't know that there is a difference to the sides of a bat.   Some have even indicated to me that the label was put on the bat as a target and that is were you should hit the ball.  We can probably blame a lot of the "lost" knowledge on aluminum bats.

metalspinner

MLBers know the lable theory for sure.  You can watch them rotate their bats while in the batters box. I have noticed that some bats split along the grain and length of the bat, where as some shear off at the handle.  In either case, lots of people are in danger of flying shrapnel. 
I do what the little voices in my wife's head tell me to do.

jeffreythree

Here is another reason maple may "explode".  Evidently the smooth outside makes problems hard to detect until it is to late.  Ash's open grain pattern opens up and causes small internal problems to be visible early on, and the player can replace it before failure.  Check the quote at the bottom of this post, maple seems to have more defect hidden inside it: http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=16873
I guess it may be that ash is easier to detect problems in, so it is replaced before they can be an issue, including during the manufacturing process.
Trying to get out of DFW, the land of the $30,000 millionaires.  Look it up.

Tom

A little bit of a different viewpoint here, but I've been amazed at, what must be, the destructive shock of a base ballbat to cause it to come apart.  Even to break the handle must take a pretty good stroke.   Sledge Hammers and axes take this kind of punishment many times more frequiently than a baseball bat and survive.  Just what is the difference in the type of pressures applied.  It couldn't be the force of the stroke alone or little leaguers wouldn't break a bat.   I wouldn't think it would be the shock alone, or you would see the barrel of the bat separating.  The force of the stroke could break the handle, especially if the point of contact with the ball is low.   That ball is wound string and leather.  How does it break a piece of wood as substantial as  baseball bat?

Tom

I got to thinking more about it and decided to look on Youtube.  There seems to be everything on youtube.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5iqwvRDoAY

And then, a little further down the Google Page, I found this Link describing the breaking of a baseball bat.

It is an article in NewScientist, a journal, and reads, in part, like this.

According to Van Zandt's calculations, when the ball strikes the bat a few centimetres closer to the batter's hands than the sweet spot, the oscillation set up in the bat acts as a whiplash. A wave bends the bat into a concave shape from front to back. In extreme cases, this bending will break the bat, splintering the back.

The travelling wave also causes the 'sting' of the bat on the batter's hands. Because the duration of the impact of bat on ball is only about 1.5 milliseconds, the ball has flown before the batter's hands feel anything at all (New Scientist, Science, 6 October 1990). But as the wave moves down the handle it grows in amplitude and slaps forward about 2.5 milliseconds after the hit. So a right-handed batter is hit first in the left palm. Only after another few milliseconds does the bat slap back into the right hand.



Tom_Averwater

Louisville Sluggers are still made in Louisville , Ky.. My son and I toured the plant last wed. . Neat plant . They would not allow pictures to be taken inside the plant for security reasons .
He who dies with the most toys wins .

mike_van

On some TV show, I saw some super slow motoin of what a bat does connecting with a ball. It was in a machine, so the same force could be applied time after time. The balls came from a pitching machine too. The aluminum bats actually dent as they connect with the ball, as this dent rebounds, it sends the ball out with more force than just the swing. The wood bats, you could see the bend they get connecting with the ball. A ball coming in 90 mph, a guy whose been in strength training most of his life now [a few shots of 'better living through chemistry' in some cases]  sooner or later, something has to give. Usually the bat handle.  The aluminum ones actually lose their 'snap' after awhile, so you go buy a new one for 400.00 in some cases.  I've seen them split too. 
I was the smartest 16 year old I ever knew.

beenthere

A maple bat update from a press release yesterday.

http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/pressroom/newsreleases/nr-2008Dec12--mlb.html

And apparently new controls on the maple bats used by Major League baseball in 2009.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Tom

And there goes baseball.

It looks to me that they could make a safer bat without taking the "kid" out of the game anymore than they have.

So much for whittlin' your own bat.

Dodgy Loner

I found that to be a very interesting read.  I don't think MLB players have been able to whittle their own bats for a long, long time ;D.
"There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey." -John Ruskin

Any idiot can write a woodworking blog. Here's mine.

beenthere

This may open up a very good market for maple 'billets' that are cut from straight grain maple logs. Like a "veneer" grade maple log, although shorter in length.  Might be something to keep close watch over, as maple bat mfg's will likely be looking for the better material.

Could maybe split short logs with a splitter, and select the straight-grained sections for bats. Delivery and market centers would have to be considered.

Going to be real expensive to process/finish maple into bats only to find out in the end, that they can't sell the product any more. But sorting out high grade straight-grain material in the firewood processing yard could possibly lead to a new profit center.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

SwampDonkey

They have taken maple and Y birch veneer down to 4 feet up here. I'm not sure that market still exists though. They used to come buy it from Maine in the yard. Rock maple they say is harder to work with,  when dealing with wood around the pith and juvenile wood. Yellow birch doesn't move and warp around the pith so bad or with big heart. We always used ash bats, but no one turned their own that I remember unless their dad had a lathe. I wouldn't hesitate to use a maple bat though, of course I'm not a major leaguer by a long shot. I do more swing'n than than hit'n. :D
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

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