Pricing your work

[Larry]

I saw a picture today which reminded me of the pricing comments about WDH's beautiful chest of drawers in the thread he started.

There is a full page picture of this table in the June ForbesLife magazine.

The Lamb Table

priced at $10,000 from this woodworker.

David Stine Woodworking

This is a picture of a similar table out of my gallery.  I've made several of these tables but in different species along with different details...even with a few bow-ties and natural edges.  Priced normally in the $1,000 to $2,000 range...dependent on my mood for the day.



I'm not saying my work should bring what a pros work sells for...but 5 to 10 times more?

So...any thoughts on pricing work other than getting it featured in ForbesLife?

[John Bartley]

Depending on what the product is ....

One of the principals of "selling" that I was taught many years ago by one of my first employers was the idea that when you price a "good" item so high that it becomes a "unique", or "collectible", or "niche market" item, the item itself creates an aura around/about the seller that allows them to price similar "unique items very high also. The idea here is that if you can create this sort of marketplace, you can sell fewer items at much higher prices, allowing you luxury of taking the time to create similar "unique" items which in turn will demand higher prices - it feeds on itself. I watched one of my landscape contractor customers do this many years ago. He sold a lawn maintenance package aimed at people who wished to never see anything but a perfectly manicured yard (yuppies and dinks). He charged two to three times what the other contractors charged and he was so swamped that he started "qualifying" his customers to make sure they were the sort he wanted. The tough part is having the nerve to get started....

cheers eh?

[ohsoloco]

Pricing is the hardest thing about building furniture sometimes...at least for me anyway.  I just made a coffee table for someone (it's the one I have pictured in the thread about photographing furniture).  We didn't discuss a price beforehand, and something kept telling me $600.  I find it hard to price my stuff too high (even though I'm working for less than minimum wage, I'm sure).  Personally, I'd never spend $600 for a coffee table...maybe that's b/c I can make them, or because I'm cheap...or a little of both  :D 

When I priced it I was thinking that it was a fair price to fetch, but I was also thinking that I'd rather keep it for myself than sell it for any less.

[WDH]

Larry,

That is a beautiful table!  I am sure that the Lamb table is grossly overpriced.  Overpricing things does not impress me.  If I go to a restaurant and pay $10 for a glass of orange juice, that does not impress me.  I guess getting overcharged makes some people feel important, but I think that is foolish and silly. 

There has to be a good value for both the customer and the supplier in my opinion. 

Drinking the bottled water in the room at a large hotel and getting charged $5 for it makes me feel taken advantage of and stupid. 

To me, the way to go is to make a realistic estimate of your costs, overhead, and time.  Price the piece based on what those variables call for.  You cannot be fairer than that.  If someone wants something dirt cheap, they can go to WalMart and buy particle board furniture made in China.  With that stuff, cheap is fair.  If they want a high quality piece that is hand crafted, they will have to pay a fair price, just like everything else they buy.

Even if you go to a furniture store, the quality is pretty mediocre.  There is a lot of particle board and vinyl coated particle board. 

Sometimes the public can be cows.  It is why many people who try to make a living making furniture struggle.  The public has been taught that poor quality is OK.

[getoverit]

When I was building furniture, I always went on a cost plus pricing scheme. The higher quality wood and supplies they wanted, the higher the price..................... It seemed to work out fair enough for me but only because I did it as a hobby.

Now that I build guitars it becomes even harder. If I price them too cheap, people dont think they are good and wont buy them. If I price them too high, only the rich can afford them.  It's hard to figure out people sometimes.

[scsmith42]

David, look at it this way... the other fellow is a "name brand", and you are not.  Some folks will pay more for the name brand due to it's reputation, years in business, resale value, etc.

Another dimension at work is the "artistic" dimension.  A lot of art is priced not so much based upon the labor and materials that went into it, but by the skills, reputation and following of the artist. 

Custom furniture can be valued not only from a practical side, but also from an artistic side.

An example would be a rocking chair by Sam Maloof.  The last time I checked, they were selling for around 25K.  A local guy makes exquisit copies, but for 6K.  Four times more for the genuine Maloof version seems like a stretch, but then again the local guy doesn't have his chairs in use at the White House, nor is he a respected wood artisan with around 50 years of reputation under his belt...

And you can bet that old Sam didn't sell his first chairs for 25K either...

[metalspinner]

any thoughts on pricing work other than getting it featured in ForbesLife?

Unfortunately, that is the best way. :-\  A write up in Southern Living, or similar magazine, is one way to add "legitimacy" to your work in the eyes of the greater population.


Here is a link to George Nakashima's sight.  I have seen work from people on this sight that could rival his work in design, beauty and craftsmanship.  But we are not George Nakashima. :

http://www.nakashimawoodworker.com/greenrocktable.htm

It's all about your target audience.  People with lots of money want to spend lots of money.  Even if the same thing sells down the street for half the price.  The place or name you buy it from is more important than the thing you actually purchased.

[Fla._Deadheader]

Tell them you are so booked up, 1 year minimum wait. That's like Honey to flies.  ;D ;D ;D ;D

[Ironwood]

ScsSmith and Metalspinner have some good insight here.

  It is a tough thing. One thing for SURE, the person with the market is KING. I build at a fairly high level, there are others whom I supply material to that charge ALOT more. I dont resent them, they they use the same material I do. They hold out, and hold out on a sale, they spend TONS of money on western shows, travel to do insalls, and on and on. We all make choices, we all fall into the spectrum/ continum of price, what is your opportunity cost? The one guy cited (Stine) is a lawyer, chosing  to build furniture. I'll bet his shop rate is $75-100 bucks an hour minimum.

As I have aged I have begun to appriciate my talents and others, we get what the market will bear according to our talents (not just woodworking, design, artistic, business, interpersonal skills, and list goes on). One other thing I have noticed, if someone is truely gifted at a skill they will make it look easy. OK, one more observation, if some is truely pushing the design and artistic envelope they will occasionally make what I call orphans (I forget the saying Wendell Castle has for this, I'll look it up). 


To the end of what it takes, here are some pictures of a recent show. The music stand on the back wall is a Wendell Castle, the last of which sold for $300,000. There were armed guards on it 24/7 during the show run. I (my booth) am in the forground. This show cost me $8000 to attend, I have had  a trickle of sales since. If I had not slept at a buddies and in the truck one night the bill would have been over $10,000 . That does not include the $1000 of handouts, and $750 in wall photos and artwork, or food for myself or my helper.  It is all to whom you present yourself, the originality of the work and what level of detail and artistry you bring. Three of my pieces recieved BEST OF SHOW Nominations (there were about 20 pieces in taht catagory of "nomination" , there were a couple of Wendell's in there as well).  I am going back to this event, a little leaner, a little meaner, but this is what it takes at the high end of the market place. FEEL GUTSY? got some cash to spend?  PM me Larry I'l give you the info.




Ironwood

[flip]

I think once you decide to get into the "big time" like Reid and Keith Fritz (local guy) you have to choose your market and plan according.  Keith uses plywood, lag bolts and pre laid veneers for his furniture, tables and mirrors.  He commands, in my .02 a huge amount for what he does but his clients are all super high dollar and he targets the designers.  I think he said half of his cost is marketing. 

Small time guys like myself are word of mouth, referal or no one else wants to do it.  I have low overhead and am able to use my own materials to build with.  I build what I know I can and meet the customer's expectations.  I will not take on jobs that are out of my skill range even if there is big $$ to be made.  Is that table above worth $10,000?  Maybe if it is marketed to the right person or designer but my opinion most of that price is loaded with marketing expense.  It would really surprise me if he had more than $2000 in it with finished materials.  Labor is a matter of efficiency and self value.  Not knocking his work but that is probably what he HAS to have to make profit margin, not make a killing. 

I am using $30/hr for furniture, 20% mark up on materials (stains, glue, finish or hardware) wood is subject to availibility, what I have dry on the ground or if I have to buy from local hardwood supplier.  Still hard to make estimates on things because a lot of it is design and build on the fly :. 

Price what YOUR market can bear.

[Larry]

A lot of good ideas and thoughts folks.  Food for thought.

Reid your display is awesome.  I know I will never be even close to your level but it is nice to dream.  I have never even attended a high end show...don't know that there are any in the the midwest.

[Ironwood]

Larry, look to Chicago.

Ironwood

[TexasTimbers]

The high end furniture business is not unlike the music business. No matter how much talent you have, you have to have a break here and there. And the harder you work, the more likely one of those breaks will come. But even then, there is no guarantees.

There have been many many many extrmemly talented prodigy musicians you have never heard of and never will.  There have been many prodigy woodworking artisans who you have never heard of and never will.

"Ya rolls tha dice and takes tha chances."

We're pullin for ya Reid.

[Ironwood]

TT,

Yeah, one of our other saying 'round these parts is " heading up to the shop to work on my luck", usually this is late at night or on the weekends trying to get ahead. We believe you create your own opportunities.

Good insights TT.

Ironwood

[metalspinner]

I just returned from a week long seminar at the Arrowmont School of the Arts in Gatlinburg, TN.  One thing I learned is that if you have a "studio" instead of a "shop," you can command higher prices... or it seamed that way becaues all the instructors had "studios"... : :D

[Larry]

MS, one of our locals, Doug Stowe is a sometimes teach at Arrowmont. 

I would be interested to hear about your week in school and if you enjoyed it.  I've always wanted to attend but never got roundtoit. :

[WDH]

I would be interested to hear about your week in school and if you enjoyed it. 

Me too ;D.

[Lud]

Back to the pricing question.  When economic times were better and regular folks had a little impulse cash,  you could price up some of your craft and make out.  But now........people aren't turning out to the shows nearly as heavy and not buying much if they even come.   What to do?  What is a fair price depends on the piece and it's purpose.  If it's functional  or if it's pretty.  You see some want-to-be high end pieces sitting for years in the shops.  Do you want to sell, can you meet demand,  and how pretty is it?   A gloss finish looks great until it's dinged but a thousand dings are a patina!  Go figure!

So maybe working the "RICH",  i.e. folks who still have money ,  can be lucrative but isn't that going to be incredibly competitive, stressful, and full of marketing expense?  You have to try to understand what makes them tick and act like you admire them?  They've got some very lame attitudes some times.......

Not everyone is hip to the Net,  or EBay,  but is that the best way to reach out to many folks these days?  How many hours do you put in on the box that you could have spent in the shop?   How does one achieve a balance? ???

I like working at all of my crafts.   I've "got" to make stuff.  I like to get the positive feedback of getting cash for stuff I've made.   But chasing around pedalling it  is not always fun.  Back to the balance issue, right?

Gonna quit my rant now and go over to the lathe in the barn.  That I enjoy trying to understand........

[TexasTimbers]

. . . . So maybe working the "RICH",  i.e. folks who still have money ,  can be lucrative but isn't that going to be incredibly competitive, stressful, and full of marketing expense?  . . . .

You touch on a good point. When I remodeled homes, I focused my energy on building a clientele that was unaffected by what the economy did, and I had alot less competition than when I started out working my tail off competing in the "no job too small or too large" mentality. I learned pretty quick that that kind of slogan sounds nice and all but it's a silly foundation for a healthy business model.

When I was in the 9th grade I had a crush on my sister's best friend's sister, who was a senior cheerleader. What were the odds right. She was easily the best looking girl in the whole school in most guys opinion. But everyone was afraid to ask her out because we all figured a girl like that had dates lined up for 30 years. Maybe it was because I was too stupid to know I was too short, too young, and had no license to drive, but I bought her a mum for the homecoming dance and asked her out anyway. Right there in the hall where I handed her the mum the day of the dance that night.

Little did I know she already had a boyfriend who had already graduated. So she had to say no. But she gave me this big long hug right there in the hallway in front of God and everyone. And she did something else that was life-changing for me at that time . . . she gave me a kiss on the cheek in front of everyone in the hallway! But when she was elected homecoming queen and had her picture taken at the dance for the yearbook, MY mum was the one she wore for all posterity to see, and the only one!  8)

The lesson I learned from that was one I never forgot. I always knew those best looking girls in school were the ones who weren't getting asked out nearly as much as all the other guys percieved, so that's where I focused my attention. But the deeper lesson was that you got to have the same attitude in just about every area of life. We thnk we know the customer. We think the "rich markets" are being hammered to death. You might have some competition for the wealthy markets sure, but IMO there's alot more competition for the mediocre markets. Alot more. You are going to get no's and you are going to get yesses in both markets. Wouldn't you rather be asking the best looking girls for dates instead of the homely ones? Because when you do get a yes it's a much sweeter deal. ;D

[Cedarman]

Oh TT, what you say is so true.  Brings back the memory of my lab partner at the start of second semester freshman year.  First day in the lab and she is so good looking.  So, I asked her out and she said yes.  Got back to the dorm and got to talking to one of my buddies and told him I was going out Friday and told him who.  Little did I know she was a classmate of his.  He said she was the finest girl in the whole school and it was absolutly unimaginable that she would go out with me. (How was I supposed to know all this?)  She was top of the line.  Good time, but never asked her out again.  We just didn't click. The worst thing was I had to change lab times and that was the end of that. After that I became fearless.

Be fearless in business as TT suggests.
Thanks TT.

[Ironwood]

My date of record is one eyeballed from afar at a friend's wedding while my longtime girl (sitting across from me) was letting me go. This "GODESS" lets the bride's Mom know she is interested, WHO ME? WOW, well long story short, ultra wealthy, Irish Italian w/ a Masters in Phsycology, parents were at their Marco Island estate, MAN was I out of my league, she had a name to go with her looks, wealth and intellegence Celeste Barranzi. Man, talk about a fireball burning out in the atomsphere, yeshhhh. memories!

                 Ironwood

[LeeB]

My dream gal kept driving by my house one night till I finally climbed out the window so as not to wake up the rest of the house. Turned out to be a good move. Today makes 31 years and still as happy as a man can ask for. I thought I was getting her for a song but I got a couple $mil invested in her now. :D. Just goes to show you, Put it out there to be seen and get every thing you can for it.

[Lud]

TT and Cedarman,
                I'm touched by you guy's optimism and unrequited sweetheart stories.

NOW WAKE UP AND SMELL THE COFFEE!

I STILL SAY SUCKING UP TO RICH FOLK IS A GRIND.  Their presumption that they deserve to be catered to makes me want to hurl!

Not all of them,  OK, but enough  that when you see the pattern you're appalled that a human can be so addicted to status. THE ONES WHO ARE'NT HAPPY UNLESS THEY'RE SHOVIN' IT DOWN YOUR THROAT.

Regular middle class folks are getting squeezed out.  Nice folks who earn your respect by giving you respect.

[TexasTimbers]

Lud,

With all due respect, your experience with a person, a class of persons, or even an inantimate object even such as a chainsaw etc. is not going to be the same as mine.

Telling me to wake up and smell the coffee, gives me the impression that you believe I am not aware of something or that my perceptions are inaccurate. But that is not the issue.

Our divergent attitudes, in this instant dealing with potential clients who are wealthy and have alot of disposable income - well they are shaped on experiences with them that we have both had. So far can we agree?

Your experience with this market is yours, not mine. My experience with this market is one of overall success. This is a fact not an opinion. But my glass is always half full.

Now here is where I will depart my actual experiences and wander off into opinion since we are obviously being quite liberal with them.

My OPINION is that your attitude toward your opportunities is terrible. Your post reveals an extremely negative dispostion toward well-heeled folks, to the point where you find it necessary to enlighten Cedarman and myself that we are dealing with people who are "shoving it down our throats".

You also point out that the middle class is getting "squeezed out". mThis has nothing to do with the topic as far as I can tell. The middle class are definately getting squeezed out and the poor (that's me) are getting poorer it seems, but when it comes to pricing our work, the wealthy are the ones some of us (not you maybe and that's cool) seek to court for our own reasons.

I have had overall success with dealing with the moneyed folks and have found them to be, overall, good people. I have dealt with all walks of life and all classes/races/religion/political/ etc. and my experience is that in the end, when it comes to business, folks are folks. Some good some bad.

To reiterate, I disagree with your perception of my perception. :D  Because my perception is based on the realities of my experiences. Your experiences have shaped your attitudes (you have "allowed" that btw since your attitude is a decision you make)) but your experiences have not shaped my attitude or perception.

So don't tell me that I have to wake up and smell the coffee, when it is you - again IMO - who must do the sniffing. My assertion is that someone's failure to successfully deal with any certain class of people is all on the person, not the class, not their money, and not the planets because they are not aligned. ;)

Just my opinion and just for the record, we are not cross in my book. Just agreeing to disagree. ;)

[ronwood]

Lud,

I have sawn for some well do folks and always had a very good experience. Some or more demanding than others.

Ron