How long does it take to make most joints, on average

[Thackery]

I'm new to tf and I am working to replace damaged areas of my barn.
I really like the work, but it seems to take me a lot of time per joint.
It maybe the tools I  have, or don't have but I'm curious how quickly someone that knows what they are doing can turn out.
I have a "Hole Hog" to bore with,  but for nearly everything else I am using hand tools.

I'm sure I do a lot of things like a newbie.
My chisels, I'm sure are not as sharp as they could be.   I have trouble cutting cross grains.
I am using white oak for the repairs,   and the existing frame is chestnut and oak.

Today I was working on a simple dovetail.   The tenon is not a problem,  but the mortise took a while.
I usually try to remove as much wood as possible with boring, and I will saw several kerfs to allow chips to break out.
However,   on the mortise of the dovetail I seemed to have a lot of chisel work.
Due to pocket of the mortise I felt that I had to go around and around the sides of the pocket to move out the wood.
How should I have handled this????

Maybe someone can point at a previous post in the forum that may help me out.

I have the Sobon tf books but was actually suprised that there was not more instruction on the actual woodworking of jointery. 

Thanks a bunch.   This is a great forum.

Thackery

[Dave Shepard]

There are so many variables it is hard to say how long a joint should take. I've watched Jack Sobon do a tenon on a timber during a demostration that would take me four times as long, and that was while talking about what he was doing the whole time. If your tools aren't sharp, you can really get frustrated. I've spent the last few nights working on tuning my wood working tools, and have a lot more to do. Hand tools aren't necessarily slower, especially when properly tuned and you have gained experience.

Are you doing open dovetails that you can saw all the way through, or are they more of a pocket? At the workshop we had a mantra: "score it, sore it (saw it), and bore it". Once you have sawed and bored whatever you can, the rest is chisel work.


Dave

[moonhill]

Dave's question on the dove tail is my same question.  What type of dovetail?  Where is this joint coming into the repair work?  I don't work much with hard wood but if it is green for the most part is works just a little bit harder.  I think back to my first joints and wonder how I ever made it through with out giving up.  It was new and challenging.   

In back of me as I wright this my 10 year old daughter is sewing.  It sounds like a violent thing as she tears the cloth into squares for her doll quilt.  A method her Grandmother taught her instead of using shears, its faster and exact enough for the job at hand.  In timber framing there are similar methods to make the work move along.  Its finding the folks who know them and or discovering them for yourself, which takes longer.  I find the axe takes out a lot of wood quickly, where someone else may be using a mallet and chisel for the same job and taking twice as long and its harder on the wrist, elbow and shoulder all at the same time. 

Saw it, score it, bore it, isn't that a Sobon thing.  I put the "saw it" first, if I can saw without scoring it cuts out a step which equals time.  It's great to hear these sayings and how they come into play.   Another one is "shnaff, shnaff" 1-1/2", 1-1/2" for locating a mortice.   Tim B.

[Thackery]

I am using a simple pocket style dovetail.
I did spend some time resharpening my 1 1/2" chisel,  but I am not seeing a big difference from where it was before.

Although I think this is somehow cheating,  I used a 1/4" drill bit to drill into the pocket in all the places the saw could not reach,  it did speed up the process somewhat.

I guess the goal is to remove wood in the most efficient way and leave enough for cleaning to tolerance.
I just have to get my skills up to par.
I would love to go to a week of class so someone could say "Oh my gosh,  don't do it that way,  you'll beat that thing all day."

Thanks for the input.

Thackery

[Dave Shepard]

Yes, it is a Sobon thing, or a Dave Carlon thing, I don't know which one of them originated it, but they were my instructors in the workshop. Schnaff, schnaff is also from the workshop. One of their students asked them what a schaff was. :D There is also schworter and twinch. ;) For different sized mortises.

Thackery, I don't think there is a cheating when it comes to cutting your joints, unless you are trying to adhere to an absolute strict interpretation of how it was done in a certain discipline. If you get the same result using the small drill bit, then I say go for it. I haven't used the type of dovetail you mention, only the open ones, which are much quicker. Maybe someone can tell you how they do it.


Dave

[Thackery]

After giving it more thought I believe can use a 1 1/2" bore in the center of a 2 1/2" dovetail followed by 1/2" bore in the tight corners of the the dovetail.   This should hog out most of the wood that is difficult to remove with a chisel.

Another lesson learned.

Thackery.

[Jim_Rogers]

After laying out a dovetail pocket, it is usually the procedure to score the lines to prevent the saw from chipping out wood beyond the layout line.



After the lines have been scored you can then make cuts with a skill saw to make it easier to release the waste wood:



And to get the reverse angle use a worm drive saw, which tilts the other way:



This will produce a joint that looks like this:



And then the rest can be cleaned up with a chisel:



If I was going to use a bit to hog out some wood, I would do that before I use a saw, as trying to bore after sawing would be difficult.

This is why we usually score it, bore it, saw it...... But to each there own and there are no wrong ways to doing it as long as it is done right.


Jim Rogers

[moonhill]

Great photos Jim.  With hand tools, I would skip the score, and hand saw the angle cut, bore a series 1-1/2" .  holes along the bottom of the mortice and chop with the axe, and finish with a slick and chisel, all the while checking the depth with a combo square. 

I am guessing you will be using wedges with this joint.  I have a follow up question to add.  When driving the wedges how tight is too tight?  Or is there no such thing.  I see a split start at the corner with just the slightest pressure, this is in soft wood. Is this normal or should one avoid the crack?  Tim B.

[Thehardway]

I will answer a ? with a ?  ???  How good do you want the joint to be and last?  How long a joint takes is directly proportionate to the skill and precision one has, and respectively, desires the joint to have when completed.  A lot of time can be spent cleaning up a joint and making it fit perfect or it can be a "close enough" type job.

I would be very interested to hear opinions of those who have years of experience in whether there is any benefit " (apart from cosmetics and craftsmanship values) on finishing a joint to perfection vs. a "close enough" approach.  Does leaving a rough finish on a tenon aid in its holding power or is is better to make it smooth and tight? Should friction play any role in standard joints?

I have seen some pretty crude work that has held up for over a hundred years and some very particular work that has gone to pieces very quickly.  A quick assessment on my part would say that proper attention to sizing and placement of a joint is more important to longevity than a precise fit.  I would prefer to see both go hand in hand. 

As a side note, safety also has a relationship to speed.  This past weekend I was working on the ends of my purlins, paring the drop in tenon faces.  I was "in the zone" and really moving along and forgot about where my left hand was in relationship to the work piece and the chisel.  The chisel met resistance in a small knot which required some pressure to cut.  When it went through it also deflected of the work piece and up into the heel of my hand laying it open nicely.  I knew better but was thinking more about time than safety.  Needless to say, I have now lost a couple days of time to a wounded hand. 

[Jim_Rogers]

Tim:
The above series of photographs were taken by me at Fox Maple Timber Framing school in Brownfield Maine, over several years, several years ago.
I don't use this joint or haven't used this joint as yet.
The reason I don't use this joint is that the industry has seen over the years that these types of dovetails can shrink and that allows the joint/timber to pull out.
Without a housing for support or to surround the timber so that the gap doesn't show this "gap" can be unsettling for a home owner to see.
Of course adding a steel strap over the tops of the timbers to prevent any pull out from happening also would/could possibly prevent the pull out.

You asked: "I am guessing you'll be using wedges with this joint?"
and: That is his standard procedure to wedge these joints.

You asked: "..how tight is too tight?"
and: I don't know as I've never done it but I was told that these were hardwood wedges usually cut from dry stock, I believe.

I'll be traveling to Fox Maple this week, taking a load of tools up to try and sell to the students up there, and I can ask him when I see him. I'll let you know when I have an answer.



Reviewing a close up of that joint, I believe that is a pencil line not a crack.

If it was then that would be a weak joint for sure....

Jim Rogers

[Jim_Rogers]

Thehardway has asked a good question.
One that I have asked many people, many times.
What is the tolerance of joints?
We have used the term a "business card thickness" as an example.
Do you want to have less than a business card thickness between two mating surfaces or more than a business card thickness?

Of course when you ask a person who restores old frames they say you don't need less than a business card thickness between surfaces as they are use to seeing gaps between surfaces as they take apart old frames for repair.

When I have asked an engineer about tolerances, he said that a there should be less than because load goes to stiffness.

One framer I know, asked an engineer what tolerance and he said you could make your joints sloppy, with as much as 1/8" between surfaces. And he cut his frame this way.
And I believe he learned that this amount was way to large.

What is going to happen to the wood after you leave the erected enclosed frame?
It's going to dry out and shrink.
What's going to happen when it shrinks?

It's going to have a gap.

Starting with a gap means the future gap is just going to be larger.

Joints shouldn't need to be pounded together with a commander, either. Pounding together a joint means it's too tight and could cause the mortised timber to split. Start out with a split isn't the best way to start the life of a joint.

Each joint/tenon cheek should be cut to fit it's mortise without pounding it in and without being sloppy. It should be just right......

That is the best you can do.....

Jim Rogers

[Brad_bb]

Jim,
I seem to remember Steve telling us a time to figure for joints.  Did he say plan on 8 hours per?  Was that for one tennon and one mortice?  Now with a little experience, it souinds a little high to me?  Maybe not, as I remember that some of the half dovetails in the tie beam took awhile to clean up and be satisfied with.  I'm sure you get a little faster over time, and I'm sure it goes faster when you line up a bunch of timbers recieving the same cuts.  Maybe if you also figure in layout time, 8 hours per may not be far off, though I'd try to lay out a good bid before cutting.

[Greg]

Wow, thats a really good question, but almost impossible to answer.

As already said here, there are SO many variables. Skill of the framer, quality of tools, the particular nature of the joint. The first time I cut a simple brace, it probably took me 2 hours to get it right. But after doing about 20 or 30 of them, I can probably crank one out in 15 to 20 minutes now, assuming its already layed out.

It is also important to understand the "tolerance" issue and how precise a particular joint needs to be. I just scanned JimR's response, but without going into alot of detail, in my limited experience, some joinery need to be very precise and meticulously cut and measured.

But other joints are more forgiving and I little bit of slop won't hurt a thing. Some joints you will ruin by taking off too much material, others by taking off too little.

Great question, good discussion to have!

Greg

p.s.

Funny you could read that subject/title in a completely different context too :D Good thing this a Forestry/Woodworking site!

[Don P]

The computer cut frame I worked on was milled from green mixed oak to tolerances I sure can't compete with by hand. Drop in dovetail joists like Jim shows have now withdrawn over 3/8", or more correctly the beam width has shrunk as well as the joist's. I can see several other joints off or askew on their seat or hanging on a pin as well as twists, checks and curves of timbers drying. I stuck a meter in a few hidden places recently ~10% in the shell up to as high as 16% at 3" deep in a couple of places after about 2 years with 1 winter heating. If I were to recut those joints in those same timbers by hand now, my finished product would be far tighter than what even a computer can produce from green material. From what I've seen the tolerance that needs to go into fit and finish is pretty closely tied to how far from service moisture content you are.

[moonhill]

Don P, was that a CNC type of machine which cut those joints?  Were the tenons and Mortices rounded, where the boring device plunged into the timber? 

Along this same thought, and this is just my opinion, when I see something done by a machine with it's crisp cuts and edges, every thing looking the same, a slight change stands out like a cut off finger with blue tape on it.  On the other hand a hand cut joint with it's non-uniformity can hide or blend together in a much more pleasing way.  This way a twist or shrunk joint looks the part where the machine one is saying something is wrong here. 

I also attended Fox Maple and very much appreciated the skills he taught, and have always kept those skills close to mind.  I also have a very different approach to framing which I have developed since.  I don't use dove tailed joist or purlins anymore.  I use a tusk or soffit tenons, or even just place the purlin or joist on the top as a by pass running to the next major member using long stock.  Tim B. 

[Thehardway]

Thackery,

Hope I didn't hijack your thread too badly.  I guess you get my point, how long a joint takes depends on how tight you want it.  If you are looking for a comparison, my housed mortise and stub tenons for struts took about 2 hours each to layout and cut. using scribe rule.  I assume since you are doing repair to existing work you will be doing the same.  I cut everything a little long and fat and then trimmed to fit.  I used a 1" spurred auger bit in a Milwaukee 1/2" drill to drill out the mortise and then cleaned up with chisel and mallet.  This is green White Oak (mortise) and Cherry (tenon). I find the most tedious portion of the mortise being chip removal and have employed a shop vac for it but rather than sucking out I find it more effective to blow them out.  The tenon I use a circular saw to kerf, knock out the scrap with a mallet, then clean it up with a chisel and a belt sander.  I would consider these simple joints and I am not very skilled or experienced.  Joints at an angle other than 90 will take longer.

Doing my half-dovetailed tie joints took much longer.  They were about 4.5 hours each.  A longer handled chisel would have cut that time some.

There is a lot to be said for quality steel in your chisel and keeping it sharp and having the proper angle on it.  Different angle chisels work better for hardwood than for soft woods and angles for paring are different than angles for chopping across grain.  Green White oak should cut nicely acrossed grain if you have a quality steel chisel with the right angle and a nice flat back and have sharpened and honed it properly.  This is not to say it cant be done with a general purpose chisel it is just that it will take longer. 

The same goes for saws.  Proper sharpening and set is imperative.  Sawdust on green wood likes to clump and stick and will plug up the teeth.  It also likes to bind up the saw due to internal stress.

As for hand cutting dovetails, I don't think there is a fast or easy method that yields a high quality fit.  This is one of the reasons why cabinets and furniture with hand cut dovetails fetches a higher price than other styles of joints is because of the time consuming labor required.

A folk story is told about a young man who was hired on a logging camp felling crew.  He worked harder than anyone on the crew all day long but never managed to fell as many trees as the older guys. Each night he was so tired he immediately fell asleep when he got back to camp.  While he was sleeping the older men would stay up and sharpen and hone their axes in preparation for the next days work.  The young man was too proud to ask for help and thought that with his superior physical condition he could just put forth more effort and he would eventually build enough strength and skill to keep up, unfortunately he could never catch up and at the end of the first month the rest of the men were complaining that he was not pulling his weight on the crew. The logging camp boss called him in and told him that he was going to let him go because he could not keep up.  He thought this was entirely unfair as he was working harder than anyone on the crew.  The boss turned to him and said,  "It's not how hard you work it's how many trees you fell, you may be working harder during the day but you go to sleep every night while the rest of the crew stays up and prepares for the next day".  To himself he wondered, what could possibly be more important to preparation he thought than getting a good nights sleep?  That day he pulled one of the older men aside at lunch and asked him what it was that they did each night to prepare for the next day.  The old man was shocked, "we sharpen our axes of course!", he said. That night, although exhausted, the boy stayed up and sharpened his axe, carefully observing the how the older men sharpened and honed.  The next day he was amazed at how he could hold his own and as the day came to an end he was actually praised by a couple of the seasoned fellers.  He had learned an important lesson.

I have always liked this story and although there is no substitute for hard work it is always good to properly prepare.  Good luck and share some pictures with us.

[Thackery]

Never apologize for hi-jacking a thread, it opens up more questions, and answers.
Nearly all of these dovetails are going into well seasoned wood so I don't expect any shrinkage.
I have been tied up and not worked on the barn, or visited the forum in several days so it was great to see so many replies.
I hope to try some bores tomorrow to see how that goes.
I also bought two smaller, used chisels today and sharpened them up for the job. 

Seeing approximate times that others put into their joints makes me feel like I am at least in the ballpark.
I spend a long time analyzing and figuring,  and then an even longer time cutting but that's ok.

Another question:    Maybe you guys have some solutions for this.

I am adding girts,  this is due to tearing off a shed type end on the barn and I need to add girts in the now "last" bent so that siding can be put over this end.
I  cannot move any of the verticals,  so I want to somehow pocket the girts in.
Since I had never done a dovetail I thought I would try it.
I am dovetailing and inserting the girt from the outside pushing to inside.  (Not sure if they should be wedged, nailed, spiked,???

Anyone have any other ideas on adding the girts?    Maybe this is a foolish approach.

I am using salvaged lumber for the girts.     2.5" x 5"  (Approx.)

I am adding the girts at the same spacing and quantity that the rest of the barn has.
I will be adding 6 girts in all.

Thanks,   Thackery

[Jim_Rogers]

Adding girts.
One reason a dovetail would be used is to try and hold two things together.
If you can't move the verticals, then there isn't any real reason to use a dovetail. It just adds more work to try and create the dovetail pocket in a standing vertical piece.
If you insist on a dovetail maybe make it only a half dovetail. Then it would be somewhat easier as it's only half as much work.
If you need to have the joint hold two vertical posts from spreading you could do a tenon and just use a peg.
There are several ways of adding horizontal nailers.
One would be to just use a simple pocket and just nail the nailer to the post:



If you need to add a longer tenon and want to peg it you can extend the mortise higher up the post on one end so that the nailer can be pivoted into position. And then pegged off.

What I mean by this "pivot" is to place one end of the nailer in the mortise on one end and then lift up the other end until the tenon slips into the vertically elongated mortise on the other end. Then once in a elongated mortise lower it to a level position aligning it to a pre-drilled peg hole and pegging it off.
The tenon on the first inserted end may have to be rounded somewhat to allow it to pivot into place.

This method of elongating a mortise to slide timbers into place was a common practice for adding ceiling joists between tie beams.

As shown here:



So what I'm saying to do is the same thing only vertically....

Hope that helps...

Jim Rogers

[Thackery]

Thanks Jim,   great information and illustration.    I had thought about some of these before starting the dovetails.
I may try the mortise and tenon with the elongated mortise on one end.
What are you referring to as a half dovetail??    Like half-lapped with the dovetail angle on one side?

Since I switched over to boring the dovetail pocket it is much quicker to make a joint.

I still have six more joints to make.   I may try some variations.    My barn will never be a masterpiece and its nice to try different joints as I try to extend its life.

Working on the dovetails has I believe, improved my skills.   Everything seems to be coming out much more square and better fitting the more I go.

I'm sure there are guys on the forum that read my posts and cringe at my lack of knowledge, skill, etc, etc.
However,  I  see this as a long learning curve and don't worry about the mistakes, etc., as long as I keep going and learn along the way.

Thanks,   Thackery

[Jim_Rogers]

What are you referring to as a half dovetail??    Like half-lapped with the dovetail angle on one side?

Like this only level, not at an angle like a brace would be:



Jim Rogers

[routestep]

I just cut the two halves to a bridle scarf. It took a good six hours I would say. And I'm not completely happy with it. The two halves meet well along the long bed (I'll call it) but the two ends have about an eighth inch gap where they butt up to each other in three locations. I had to use snap lines because of a twist in one of the beams and both beams have a crown and one a bow also. I could have chiseled one end for a while, done some undercutting and gotten a better fit I think. But looking at it and knowing it will not have a design load applied I decided I could slip a thin shim in after the frame is up if I want too.

Without the chalk lines I'm sure it would have been a bad fit all around because of the twist.

I try to split the pencil line on the butt ends of the joint and on the bed left the line for trimming later. The three terms I have heard and used: leave the line, split the line, and take the line you should apply as appropriate for the situation.
What I think happened - I used a power saw for the cuts and a beam drill for the mortises and hence they were resting on the wood's surface. So with the twist I think the saw blade deep down in the cut did not stay in line with the pencil mark on the surface. Result: some gaps. The solution
1) Trim the cuts to improve the fit
2) Shim up the power saw or hold it off the surface (which I sometimes do)
3) Use a hand saw and other tools that do not rest on the wood
4) Get wood with square sides every time (mine is always rough sawn)

Holding the power saw up to follow the lines is risky, but I've done it. I haven't tried shimming it but I have shimmed my beam drill and chain mortiser. Trimming and test fitting are the time sinks in square rule timber framing.

[maineframer]

Routestep,

It sounds to me that you are "mapping" your joinery and perhaps not laying out using square rule. There is a place for that.
Keep striving for tight joinery----each project will improve.
If it was easy everyone would be doing it-----Remember what you are practicing here is the highest form of carpentry and it deserves our study and patience even if that means that each joint takes longer than you think it should.

The bridal scarf that you are not happy with----- Do it again---- use two more timbers--- you will frown every time you see it otherwise.

Just my two cents

David


"Its a poor carpenter who blames his tools"

[routestep]

I'll look into mapping.

After I checked the fit of the scarf and decided to leave it as is, I cut the plate to length, about 18 feet. I knew there was a shake at the end of the stick, but as I was cutting over ten feet off the beam, I thought I'd be OK. But no, the shake was all the way to the cut. Plus there looked like some rot in the pith. How bad could it get, a poor fit, a shake at the end of the plate and I need a lapped step cut into the end to support a principle rafter that is 9 by 8 and a mortise for the post.

So I marked out the lap step and chisled out the joint. Nice practise but who wants to have the gable end of a plate starting out with some rot in a shake. Its over on my reject pile. I get another 9 by 9 twenty ft long and try again.

[routestep]

Thackery, I didn't mean to hijack your subject.

I failed to mention it took me about an hour and fifteen minutes to cut the lapped step joint for the rafter. I used a 1/2 inch drill bit and count turns. Then chisel out the "v" and use a square to keep the two sides perpendicular to each other. Then I saw a number of cuts and chisel out the lap.