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Design for a dovetailed carryall?

Started by Dave Shepard, May 27, 2008, 09:56:43 PM

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Dave Shepard

I've finally decided what to build for my first dovetailed piece. I built two quick but servicable carryalls. One of them was at 11:00 the night before the timber framing workshop. ::)

I'd like the practice, and I think a carryall should be a reflection of a craftsmans skill. The originals are definately that. :D I've improved a lot in the last couple of years, so I think I'm ready. Anyone have any ideas for the design? I'd like to build at least one, and possible a second for the other tools.

This is the first one.



Sharps, saws, and squares on the bottom. It was designed to hide several framing squares in the middle, they never seem to have a safe place to live. :D



Removable tray for measuring and other tidbits:



Second carryall. For brace and bit, planes and mallets. Also made in the wee hours of the night. Too impatiant to wait for next day to get dowl for handle, so improvised. Stronger, and cheaper. ;) Big enough to hold the No. 8 sized Sargeant MegaJointer.




Dave

Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

WDH

The simpler the design, the better.  The design you show in the pics looks good.  Dovetails will give that simple design much elegance.  Simple but elegant is the way to go ;D.
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Dave Shepard

I was all about the simple that night, wild hand sawing and sheetrock screws with the screw gun. :D I did mount the dowel for the handle with a couple of hand forged nails though. Usually distract just enoough from the sheet rock screws. ::)


Dave
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

Dodgy Loner

I've got an image in my head that I've been meaning to build for a while, but I haven't put pencil to paper yet.  When I get around to it, I'll probably just scrounge some short boards and make it up on the spot, anyway.
"There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey." -John Ruskin

Any idiot can write a woodworking blog. Here's mine.

ScottAR

I like the used to be axe handle...  The neatest things are
always made out of materials at hand.   
Scott
"There is much that I need to do, even more that I want to do, and even less that I can do."
[Magicman]

Dave Shepard

Picked up a doevtail saw and a couple of Veritas dovetail gauges, 1:6 and 1:8. I was thinking of replacing the tray with a drawer on the bottom, but that may be pushing it. :D What should I build it out of? Could probably get a few pieces of kiln dried cherry. For the amount of wood in the carryall, I could also check out a place not far from here that has a huge variety of dried lumber, both domestic and imported. Any suggestions? I am hoping to make something a little out of the ordinary, or should I say extra nice. If it turns out good, it may have a special purpose.


Dave
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

asy

I love carry-alls,

My father-in-law still uses his, that he made as an apprentice, and he's just gone 83. He's a true craftsman, and still turns and carves. I wish he was more computer savvy, I'd love him to come onto the forum.

I'll see if I can go get some photos of it.

asy :D
Never interrupt your opponent while he's making a mistake.
There cannot be a crisis next week. ~My schedule is already full..

thedeeredude

Crotch walnut?  Now heres the real trick, do splayed sides with dovetails ;D  (Not that I know how to ::))  What kind of dovetail saw did you get, a Wenzloff perhaps? :D

Dave Shepard

Gyukucho. It's a pull saw. They didn't have any normal dovetails that I like, and I've found that the pull saws don't mind doing double duty as both crosscut and rip. Trying to find books about dovetails has been very difficult. Most only dedicate a page to dovetails, or have many pages of machine cut instructions. What I want is a very specialized book, and if it had no power tool instructions, well, that would be just fine by me. ;)


Dave


What's a Wenzloff? Sounds expensive and German.

edit: I googled Wenzloff. Looks like some beautiful saws, but I don't have $200 and 40 weeks to wait. :D
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

Dave Shepard

How will heavily figured woods like the walnut crotch be to work? I'm going to be doing this electron free, as usual.


Dave
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

thedeeredude

It would take some high angle bevels.  I never did crotch walnut with hand tools, so cant say for sure.  I got the book hand tool essentials form the popular woodworking group and it has a good part on dovetails.  Get all the Roy Underhill books too.  I gotta learn to do dovetails by hand too.

Dodgy Loner

It doesn't take a whole book to learn how to cut dovetails.  A page is all you should need.  I started out using a Japanese dozuki,  which is made for crosscutting.  This is the type of saw that most folks who use pullsaws go with.  Now I use a ryoba, which has both a crosscut side and a rip side.  I use the rip teeth for cutting dovetails- it requires about 10x fewer strokes than the crosscut side.  In general, I think you'll find that crosscut saws will rip cleanly, but slowly.  Rip saws will crosscut quickly, but not cleanly.  There are definitely major tradeoffs when you use a saw for a purpose that it was not intended for.  I think a lot of the people who use dozukis and other crosscutting saws for dovetailing do so specifically because they are easier to start and to steer because they are cutting so slowly.  However, after a bit of practice it's no trouble at all to cut dovetails with a coarser rip saw.
"There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey." -John Ruskin

Any idiot can write a woodworking blog. Here's mine.

thedeeredude

Dave there might also be a video available from smartflix on doing dovetails.  Do a google for smartflix video rentals and their website is self explanatory.

Dave Shepard

I've got a Taunton book on joinery, which has enough info on dovetails. As Dodgy said, it becomes self evident after you do it. Just have to decide on the wood, or woods to use. I'm going to carve up an axe handle out of something you wouldn't normally see in an axe, like maybe cherry.


Dave
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

Dodgy Loner

Experience is the best teacher, all you need is some basic info to get you started in the right direction.  Your first dovetails may not be pretty, but it's pretty dadgum hard to cut a dovetail that's not strong!  Glad to hear it's going well.  Can't wait to see the pics!  8)

"There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey." -John Ruskin

Any idiot can write a woodworking blog. Here's mine.

Dave Shepard

I was playing around with some white pine, I think it is going fairly well. I am hoping to find some harder wood, something that can be pared and doesn't mush. :D Could be done, just a little too soft. I'm open to suggestions for the wood I like the idea of crotch walnut as one option, but not sure how it is going to work. If a Forum member has a few neat boards that you think would work, I'd be interested in buying them. Going to need one that is at least 9.5" wide and 3 feet long. Also quite a few that are about 6"x3'. Going to be building two, if the first one goes well. :D


Dave
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

Dodgy Loner

I love combining a softer wood with a harder wood when cutting dovetails.  The softer wood will compress if they're a little too tight, which makes the dovetails a lot more forgiving.  Sycamore combined with a harder wood, like walnut or cherry, is one of my favorite combos.
"There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey." -John Ruskin

Any idiot can write a woodworking blog. Here's mine.

Dave Shepard

I went looking for wood today, and found way to many choices at the specialty wood place. Bubinga, tigerwood, sepele, even a few that were affordable too. :D

I have a concern regarding the dovetail joint. If you look at the first picture, you will see that the joint between the side panel and end panel is not end grain to end grain, but end grain to side grain. Is this going to be a problem?

In the third picture, you can see the tool tray. Because the front panel extends past the joint, I am thinking a wedged through tenon might be best for this attachment. Any suggestions? Thanks.


Dave

PS, now that my chisels are truely sharp, the pine doesn't "mush" anymore. :D
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

Dodgy Loner

The dovetails must be cut end-grain to end-grain.  If you cut dovetails end-grain to long-grain, you'll probably split the long-grain when you fit the two together, but if by some stroke of luck you don't, the joint will be very weak anyway.   A traditional dove-tailed tool carrier looks more like this (except that it's dovetailed, of course :D):


As far as the wedged through-tenon goes for the tool tray, I'm sure there are some who would say that you are complicating the matter, but I personally think it would be a great opportunity to practice a difficult joinery technique in a less-noticeable application.  It would be very strong and attractive to boot :).
"There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey." -John Ruskin

Any idiot can write a woodworking blog. Here's mine.

Dave Shepard

I'm not trying to complicate the toolbox, but trying some more advanced joinery is the idea. I've tried sheetrock screws and a screw gun, got that down pat at this point.  ::)  :D Now I want to advance my skills. The through tenons might just be the way to go for this box. I can still do some dovetail details on the tool tray, and a possible sliding drawer. Thanks.


Dave
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

thedeeredude

The only thing I could think of is a sliding dovetail glued in the middle of the joint with the rest free to move.  Its like a dado with angled walls.

thedeeredude


Max sawdust

Sorry,
Kinda old topic, but just had a chance to read it.

On learning hand cut through dovetails, I suggest a online membership of Fine Woodworking.  Lots of good info... I found an older article that is available for download titled "Cutting through dovetails, pins or tails first, a case for each"  I feel this article is particularly educational.

I prefer pins first and find Tage Frid's teachings suiting my style of learning and working.  The article also gives complete instructions for tails first.

On through tenons.  I like them and try to incorporate them into many pieces.  A dovetail box would be very strong so a handle that has through tenons will not fall out unless the entire box falls apart.  I see no need to peg the through tenons.  Through tenons also create the opportunity to use a contrasting wood or a wood with end grain character such as Spalted Maple ;D 

On dovetail saws, I use a Zona which is a $7 pull saw.   I comes with a variety of TPI blade choices, if you can afford another dollar or two :D  It is my understanding that some prominent schools for woodworking advocate this saw and have the students use it. 

Max
True Timbers
Cedar Products-Log & Timber Frame Building-Milling-Positive Impact Forestscaping-Cut to Order Lumber

Dodgy Loner

My $20 home center ryoba saw fulfills almost all of my handsawing needs, including dovetails.  One side is for crosscuts, while the other is for rip cut (like dovetails).  I switch back and forth seamlessly between pins-first and tails-first, depending upon my mood.  Usually my through-dovetails are tails-first, while my half-blinds are pins-first.  I find it easier to transfer the marks that way.

By the way Dave, did you ever finish the carry-all?  We would love to see some pics? :)
"There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey." -John Ruskin

Any idiot can write a woodworking blog. Here's mine.

Dave Shepard

Thanks for the tip Max. I think I may already have that article in magazine form. :)

Dodgy, I haven't even begun. I have finally gotten a couple of leads on some nice figured hardwoods. I haven't picked a design yet either, although there are a couple of nice carryalls in The Toolbox Book. I have so many things demanding my time that it will be slow progress for any of them. Fortunately, it looks like I'll have heat in my garage this winter, so I might get some of them done. 8)


Dave
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

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