Pay per click advertising

[David Freed]

I have tried a few different types of advertising on a tight budget with basically no results. I was getting ready to try the pay per click route, but now I am not sure. The way ppc was explained to me, your ad is placed where people that are searching for the type of merchandise you sell can see it and therefore click on your ad to go to your website. I realize there will be a lot of people just browsing, but I thought targeted advertising to bring people to your website would be what you want. Is ppc cost effective or am I just wasting more money?

I am in the process of redesigning my website. It doesn't have many pictures, but I didn't think it looked all that bad. Right now I can't afford to pay an expensive designer to make a website that I probably wouldn't like anyway. I am not interested in flashy design. I just want people to see what I have to sell.
__________________

[Norm]

We've used google adwords for the last 5 years, it is hands down our most cost effective advertising. But it does depend on what you are selling how effective it is. As for an expensive designer Jeff does some really nice website design work at a reasonable price.

[David Freed]

My original post was 90% copied and pasted from another forum that has a long discussion going on this subject. Being as brain dead as I am, it was after I posted my question here that I remembered I have talked to Jeff by e-mail. I have looked at several of the websites that he has done. They do look good and his price is very reasonable compared to others, but I am just trying to save money anywhere I can. I am basically at the point right now where one businesses income is paying for two businesses expenses plus household expenses, so things are really tight. I know the only way that I am going to get paying customers for my flooring business is to advertise in some form, but as I said, it seems no matter what I try, I feel like I am just throwing money out the window.

I will look into Google Adwords. I have heard of that from different sources, but hadn't ever looked to see what it was. I checked into YellowPages.com ad, but they want over $600 per month, with a one year contract. That is just too much.

[Tom]

You want to be careful with those yellow pages ads.  A photographer, friend of mine, in my hometown, was talked into taking one out by the salesman.

Things got real tight, 4 or 5 years later and he canceled the ad.  Southern Bell changed his phone number.  He argued with them that it was on his windows, in all of his advertising, on his paperwork, on his legal documents, on his stationary, stamped on the back of all of his photographs, etc.

"Tough", they said, "open the ad back up and you get your number back".

It all but ran him out of business. 

[Radar67]

Have you considered link sharing. You link to someone else's website in return for them linking to yours.

Theorectically, it increases your exposure, and it's free.

[Patty]

I have google ad words for two business ventures I am involved with. As Norm mentioned, they are by far our most effective advertising, far better than anything else we have tried.

I used to sell ads for the yellow pages, back in the days before internet. (yea, I am REALLY old) For the money, I would try ad words instead of yellow pages.

You can predetermine your daily ad expenses so the click throughs don't get out of hand.

[johncinquo]

I got really bogged down and burdened with the whole website and marketing it.  The place that provides my website said they could do it, but wanted quite a bit of money to do it.  I now have someone part time who takes care of it all along with several other office projects.  I found out that just because you put something on a site or listing, doesnt mean it will be there next week.  You have to re submit your listings and links every once in awhile.  There were so many sites, different ways to submit, words to know, that I was just not going to do it at all.  I have too many other things I need to do in order to make my business work.  Someone else can know all this "marketing" stuff and I can get back to work. 

Is it worth it?  I get 2-3 calls or emails a week that were initiated off the internet.

I think I saw a "internet marketing for dummies" book at Fedex last week if you want to try and tackle it yourself. 

You also need to consider who you are trying to do business with.  My Gramma picks up the phone book to find something, some people only use a search engine to find what they need. 

[David Freed]

Thanks for all the replies. I will check into Adwords. I have heard about linking from other sources also. I was looking at the world through very dark glasses yesterday morning, but the positive responses here have me thinking that maybe something WILL work. I had a chance to glance at Adwords yesterday, and the way I understand it, the cost per click can vary. How does that work? Thanks again for the help.

[Norm]

You can set what the max amount of money per keyword click through. That will determine what order your ad shows up when that keyword is searched. Very popular items for sale can command a high price to be in first place. The first and second places for popular keywords are the most sought after.

Type into google the items you sale and see how many folks are advertising for them. If nobody's there you can advertise those products pretty cheaply. If there's a bunch of ads there the cost to be in the top spots is going to be costly.

[johncinquo]

I just added your link to my site.   ;D

[Patty]

On one of my business's I set my daily limit to $10 through Google ad words. When my click throughs reach my daily limit, Google just pulls my ads until the next day. Some ad words are worthless and too generic, you often want to pare these ones down and get real specific with your ads, this will decrease your cost and increase the real buyers to your website, not just the shoppers.

Also, Google Ad Words are working better for us over the Yahoo or Microsoft ads, for what it's worth.

[David Freed]

Sorry for the slow response. I got really busy for a little bit. I have done some experimenting by typing in various keywords, and on some of them it looks like I could go really cheap on the cpc and still be on page 3 or 4. I know that isn't ideal but hopefully it will get me some business. If I can just get a few sales going, maybe I can expand my advertising budget to some where above bare bones level.

John,
I don't think I'm getting to your website. When I click the link in your profile a lot of pictures show up and your first name is there, but when I click on most of the buttons, I end up at a "join msn" page. The links button only has one link that says it is about skiing, but it takes you to a poker website. What am I doing wrong?

Patty,
What kind of businesses do you have?

[johncinquo]

http://jbrooksfinancial.com/jbrooksfinancial.aspx

I am on the paid supporter list.  I think in my profile is just my personal pictures. 

[Patty]

One business has been established for several years, where we sell medical equipment and supplies. The other is a venture I just started this year, guided deer hunts on our land. Iowa has excellent whitetail deer hunting.

One day I would like to start a business with wood products, but I don't have the woodworking skills yet. A girl has to have dreams, though.   

[TexasTimbers]

I have had mixed results with AdWords. At first, I was getting too many responses so that I had to pause my ad to catch up.  Then I reactivated it after a couple of weeks and started to get the same rresponse, but had built up enough inventory because I knew what to expect.

Then it was almost like a light switch that my conversion rate went through the basement. It didn't take me long to figure out that my $30 daily limit was getting maxed out fast. My ad would quit showing after a couple of hours. I visited some marketing/internet/Adword/etc. forums I frequent and found where some competitiors will use up all your daily money by clicking your ad over and over, and one guy said there is software available to do that autoimatically. Great. of course Google says it "....rarely happens...." and in another forum a poster claims, that Google claims, their software does not allow the same IP to click more than a certain number of times in a given period, but I have never found this anywhere on Google's official FAQ's etc.

I ran my campaign several other times after pausing it for from a few days to a couple weeks and it always works great for at least a couple days, then all the sudden I quit getting more than an order or two every few days and I know the Gremlins are afoot again.

NOW, my current method is to run it 3 days and pause it for at least a week or more with no rhyme or reason. I don't even plan it. I just wake up one morning and decide it is time again. I did notice that the conversion rate peaked after about a week to ten days that first run when it wasn't getting mysteriously clicked-out in record time, so I know it isn't getting the conversion rate it would otherwise get if someone was not using up all my clicks, which "rarely happens" of course.

My CPC is usually around 0.77 and i have experiement with everything from $10 to $50 a day and found that for my market the Google suggested number sof $30/day at 0.50 cents per click bid worked the best.


My market is fairly niche, where I would think this sort of thing would be much more prevelant than in a highly competitive market with many other advertisers.

[David Freed]

Thanks again for all the help and info. It feels like I am trying to run in 3 directions at once. Got a lot going on this week. Most important of all, we went to my sons boot camp graduaton. He's home for a week right now, then heads to Texas for more training. He's going to be operating an M1A2 tank, the latest most up to date version made. He was told several weeks ago that when his training is done, he is going to Iraq. I'm not thrilled about that, but he has a positive outlook and that is the most important thing.

[David Freed]

TexasTimbers,

It really burns me up to know that people will do things like that. It is becoming more prevalent as time goes by. More and more people have absolutely no morals anymore; if it benefits them they don't care who it hurts. I could keep going and make this a really long post, but I will get off my soapbox and try not to stir everyone else up. Good luck with your ads.

[TexasTimbers]

It doesn't rankle my feathers. Look at my signature. They will get their just desserts and I won't have to lose a single wink of sleep over how to bring justice to the matter.

In fact, it has helped me learn the system better, and in the end market my products with more focus and thought. Before I was just running the ads and thinkking I was doing all I could. When that started happening it forced me to look into the whole thing more deeply. And while there is still much more that I have yet to learn, than what I have already learned, I may never have dug deeper to understand things had this not happened.

I am still holding out hope that it isn't happening. That it's some freaky quirk peculiar to my product that has yet to be defined anywhere. Just because it's the only rationale that I can come up with doesn't mean that's what's happening. I do find myself being torn between forcing myself to think the best, yet often suspecting the worst.

But if it is a person with more time than honor, I wish I knew who, because I would send them a thank you note. And mean it. ;)

[rebocardo]

Having a good URL name and correct keywords and titles probably count for as much as Google ad words.

I broke even with my godaddy hosting and ad click things on my 21 domains, but, I was surprised at some of my URLs and the (tiny) revenue they generated sitting there with a basically static page just because they popped up on keywords searches.

I tell you, there are a lot of people typing in common combinations of words to find sites of interest.

Did you know silver is the most popular vehicle color? My site www.silvertruck.com gets a bunch of hits just because that is what people type in guessing they might hit a site they like because they want a silver truck.

So, my first choice on driving traffic to a site is to use a good name. So many people have such extremely long domain names people are unlikely to type it in or to spell it correctly. The worse are the ones using people's names, imho. 

So, you are www.JoeKazooTreeRemovalInc.com. Who cares, because who will remember that, spell it correctly, or get there by guessing? Location, location, location.

One of mine

http://www.houserentalsatlanta.com/

does not generate many hits, except probably for people that really are looking for house rentals in Atlanta. Sort of niche I guess.

If you wanted a truck and are involved with trees, would you at least once try

www.treetruck.com?

I am saying not to look only at what you need from a web page with Google generated hits, but, look at it from a big picture marketing view and even change the name of your company to reflect an easy to find URL people are likely to remember and even guess at and get to your site by error or a well intentioned guess.

Then make sure if they save your page, the bookmark shows up with the proper name and a classy icon too. It would not hurt to have the page name with a 1-yourname.com here so it is at the top of the favorites folder.

[TexasTimbers]

I think David, and most others who posted here were discussing ways to promote a site they already have, for a product they already have.

But for site speculation which is what you are referring to I agree. Gotta have a good name. I have bought a few over the past couple years, not for speculation just whenever I get an idea I might market something in the future and just want to reserve a name for  it. One example, cedarpetcaksets.com I have parked but if I activated it I think there might be a pet owner or two who wants a cedar casket for their pet. I could be wrong about pet owneers wanting cedar caskets for their pets, but it reinforces your theory I think. Use keywords for the url. I went for petcaskets also of course but it was gone of course. I was suprised I got cedar . . .

[David Freed]

Well, I got my adwords account set up. The ad summary says my ad is active, it shows my keywords are in place, but my ad won't show. I looked as far as 70 pages, and nothing. The keyword diagnostic tool says none of my keywords match my ad, so here I sit with nothing happening.

[TexasTimbers]

I stay away from placement targeting and use only keyword targeting, and I am always in the top 3 position, often 1st, on the first page.

What did you bid for your CPC?

https://adwords.google.com/support/bin/answer.py?answer=18280

[David Freed]

I only bid $.20 per click. On the one keyword I entered and followed out to 70 pages, there were ads on every page, but it was the same 10 ads over & over & over.

[TexasTimbers]

David,

I suggest spening alot of time on the AdWords  help pages. You need to carve out about a half day for this. You will still have much to learn but you'll have a basic understanding of it.

You cannot hope to get any results with only one keyword. Google suggests 17-20 I believe. You can get too many. But one is hopeless.

If you have a website and are not confident listing your own keywords (this is a critical step) Google will crawl it for you and give you a list of suggestions. This feature only takes a minute or so to use.

There really is alot of tools at your disposal directly from your AdWords account. I suggest using them before you start visiting any of the forums, which are quite good too but first get the basics down. One tip I will give you is not to be afraid to bid higher on clicks. You will get better ranking, and you control your monthly ad money by your daily limits.

It's better to have fewer good rankings than many more bad ones. Your ad can be available 24/7 on page 12 and you may never get a single hit. But it can be present on page 1 for a couple of hours and pay for the whole week or month with one sale (depending on what you are selling). Even with the aforemntioned situation I have,  my ad still pays for itself even though it gets pithed away by my mystery buddy, because my ad is almost *always* on page one. I bid high, and control my expenses with my daily limit, and sometimes I bid high and use a $100 daily l;imit but make sure I pause the ad after I have recieved several dozen hits, and wait and see how many translate into sales over the next few days and determione how I want to [proceed after that.

I edited this post and added some of my "secrets" so don't go selling a dovetail jig or boxelder and knocking me down the list. :D

I am not trying to come across as some sort of guru by any means, I still have very much to learn, but you need to have a better understanding of the AdWords basics before you start spending any more of your hard earned money. Pause your campaign and read a little more.  :P ;)

[David Freed]

I have almost 20 keywords in the system, and I did spend several hours looking at their videos, help files, and directions. The way I understood the system was that if you put an ad in the system it would show up somewhere, even if it was last place, but I have spent over an hour using different keywords and going out to between 30 to 70 pages looking for my ad and it isn't being placed. I was only giving one example of a lot of searching a little bit ago.

[TexasTimbers]

Okay I misunderstood your first post sorry. There are MANY things to consider. I have been giving alot of general info, let me ask you this - is your category highly competitive?

[David Freed]

I make custom flooring, wainscoting, and accessories. I know there are hundreds of places that make the cheap, short junk, but I don't really know how many places take custom orders. As I said before, one of my keywords only got 10 ads, but the same 10 kept repeating in a never ending cycle.

As a side note, a couple posts ago you said something about spending my money on these ads. That is the point, my ad is not there to click on so therefore I am not spending any money, but I am also not reaching any potential customers. I think the adwords system has me messed up somehow. As I said before, they show that I have entered my keywords, but the keyword anylizer says that none of the keywords i check in it are associated with my ad. It sounds to me like they have them but they can't see them.

[TexasTimbers]

. . . one of my keywords only got 10 ads, but the same 10 kept repeating in a never ending cycle.

I'm not really understanding that exactly. You mean only got 10 "hits"? That's not necessarily bad unless it is supposed to be one of the keywords you thought, or Google suggested, as one of the higher % searched for your category.

As a side note, a couple posts ago you said something about spending my money on these ads. That is the point, my ad is not there to click on so therefore I am not spending any money, . . .

Yes I realize that. I am thinking out loud on this just typing as I think. I mean more specifically of wasting time (that is money to me)  i.e. running campaigns that are not producing. That is lost money in the form of energy and time. In business i make little to no distinction between them as they are all DIRECTLY related. I typed that when i was under the wrong impression you ran a campaign on one single keyword. I didn't read your post correctly just scanned it. My bad.

Have you tried the  "Edit Campaign Negative Keywords", " Keyword Tool", or the " Ads Diagnostic Tool "? These are under yout Tools menu. If you haven't used them do so. If that does not help (will take a day or two to tell) you are going to get an automated email from Google telling you they have noticed your campaign was paused, and are you having problems? etc. use the link to get a free counsleing session. It could resolve your problkem and you won't have to pay for one of the "Hire a Specialist" offers listed in your account summary or wherever it is.

You do have some issue but I don't know enough to help you. My gig is pretty simple because when someone uses a few of my popular keywords esp "flame boxelder" they aren't window shopping they are ready to spend. The jig isn't too far behind. My conversion rate on the wood is way above average and the jig is above also just not as high as the wood.

On the other hand, your market is specialized to a degree, but I think might be getting mixed in with the laminate flooring marketers and that is not your crowd. they are shopping on price. youneed to sell on quality to "discriminating buyers" etc.

It could be that hiring one of those "Ad Specialists" would be the best money you ever spent, but try the free Google techs first. I used them twice on issues not related to keywords or ads appearing and was satisfied both times with the knowledge and level of cooperation i got. they te slammed alot but my two experiences were good ones.

Best of luck. I know you will get it figured out if you don't quit.

[David Freed]

I'm sorry that I'm not explaining very well. I know exactly what I mean, but somewhere between my brain and the keyboard there must be a short in the wiring. Also I am trying to do 2 or 3 things at the same time I'm typing
(just like right now).

When I say one of my keywords gets 10 ads, I mean 10 different ads from 10 different companies, not mine. Page 1-8 ads, page 2-2 ads, page 3-8 ads page 4-2 ads. You see each companies ad 35 times in 70 pages by typing one of my keywords, but my ad doesn't show. I sent a message to the adwords people yesterday, but no response yet.

I read the adwords help file you linked to, but it didn't soak in because I had to hurry through it. I'll read it again later. I know I need to do some more reading, but I'm always on the run the first few days of the week. It took me about 5 flybys in about 2 hours to get this typed.

[TexasTimbers]

I'm sorry that I'm not explaining very well. I know exactly what I mean, but somewhere between my brain and the keyboard there must be a short in the wiring. Also I am trying to do 2 or 3 things at the same time I'm typing
(just like right now).

Brother you aren't preaching to the choir, but certainly a former member of it. My delivery from ADHD came when I married a nurse who put me on (got my doctor to) medication (Adderall is what worked for me) for it. I lived with it for nearly 48 years. It has changed my life. I am not perfect but I no longer get so distracted i can't think, or continue to put 12 irons in the fire before I even get one taken out.  It sounds like you might have the same blessing. :D 

I realize it is not possible for a total stranger with no credential sitting 1000 miles away (or whatever we are) to diagnose someone with even a head cold, but when i read the above paragraph I knew, word for word, EXACTLY what you are going through. Maybe you are just busy right now and that is the end of it, but I have to throw it out here for you to chew on since if that IS the case, man you have no idea what you are missing out on. I can wake up now and think of 5, 6, 7, things I need to accomplish today and not write them down (I would always lose the list when I tried that anwyay). Most of time I get most or all of them done. On the days I forget my medicine there is a very noticable difference.

I just had to mention that because it's nothing to be ashamed of at all if it turns out to be the case. It's a chemical thing - not a choice.

When I say one of my keywords gets 10 ads, I mean 10 different ads from 10 different companies, not mine. Page 1-8 ads, page 2-2 ads, page 3-8 ads page 4-2 ads. You see each companies ad 35 times in 70 pages by typing one of my keywords, but my ad doesn't show. I sent a message to the adwords people yesterday, but no response yet.

If I am understanding you correctly, this is normal. You are not going to have a whole sidebar to yourself. "Your" keywords are not "yours" and do not belong to you.  ALL of the websites and forums and ads and articles and blogs etc. that are related to hardwood flooring are going to have the keywords "hardwood flooring" as part of their keyword list. As part of a marketing strategy, many companies will plug their competitors' url into a keyword optimizer/analyzer type program (available free online no downloads necessary) to see what keywords got them to the front page. it isn't JUST the keywords that do it but they play the  major role.

You can also choose bad keywords of course, and use paid services i.e SEO companies that will charge you mucho with no results. Also there are many things you can do to dilute your keyword list that would otherwise seem to be good ideas.

But the main point I want to make is you could not afford to buy a whole sidebar on Google even if they offered it. I have never heard of it. Sometimes when you see only one or two ads it's because the other ads hit their daily limit, or its a category with few ads, etc. but i do not believe Google even ofers a option to buy up an entire sidebar for an adword campaing. I would think you would have to be Coca Cola to afford it. Stand to be corrected as usual though.

[David Freed]

About me;

The upside - In high school I took college prep courses just to be in my friends classes. I had no intentions of going to college, never took a book home, and always made the honor roll. In more recent history, if I get an idea on how to build something, I don't need it on paper. I see the plans in my head. My Woodmaster is an example

The downside - I can be looking right at you while your talking, and you might have to repeat something more than once for me to get it. I can get so focused on something that you almost need an air horn to get my attention. This conversation is another example. I can't count how many times I have tried to explain something to someone that I know is smart, and I can't make them understand (I figured out it was me a long time ago).

About adwords;

I don't want the whole column to myself. I would be happy if I was number 11 after those other 10. I will try another angle. Is it possible to have an adwords account that says it is active, but it will never show, no matter what keywords you enter in a search, or how many pages you look through on each search?

After this I  will quit talking about it. I am taking too much of your time to explain.

[TexasTimbers]

Is it possible to have an adwords account that says it is active, but it will never show, no matter what keywords you enter in a search, or how many pages you look through on each search?

I think so. If your campaign has enough "conflicts" - my word, never seen it used in Adwords - I think it would be possible. I don't know that I could resolve your issues but I'll take a crack at it if you want. If you do email me and and we could go over your account on the LL and discuss a couple other things I have in mind.

[Hokiemill]

Hey guys, thanks for having this conversation.  It's been educational at a time when I need to be educated.  A somewhat related question for you - do you feel that direct ads on related sites that rank high are worthwhile?  I'm on the opposite side of the fence here.  I hope to have a topical website up and running in a week or so and I think that direct ads would make the site much more appealing than the adsense ads.  But I really have no idea what would make direct advertising appealing to someone and what sort of pricing structure is acceptable.  I guess it all comes down to the clicks they get.

[David Freed]

Apparently I have the Midas touch; everything I touch turns into a rusty muffler. I am showing up on page 1, 2, or 3 on most of my keywords for over a week, and I haven't had 1 click on my ad yet.

[Patty]

For what it is worth, David, you need to give folks a reason to click on your ad. What does your ad say?
Read it carefully and decide if you would click on it for more information if you were the buyer. Or better yet, let someone else read your ad and tell you if they would click on it. Allow them to critique the ad for you, and don't take the critique personally, they are just being helpful and honest. Nothing worse than asking for an opinion, and then getting angry about the response.

Also, in my experience it is wise to be in the #1 or #2 position on page 1. The further down you are, the less likely you will get clicks.

[David Freed]

Here it is (minus my website). I tried to give as much info as I could in the small space they give you. I tried to word it to weed out bargain hunters. I am not in business to make cheap flooring . I don't mind criticism because it isn't working as is.

Custom Hardwood Flooring
Modern, rustic or distressed. Wide
plank or strip. Lengths up to 12'

[johncinquo]

After reading all that,




You made me HAPPIER I hired someone else to do it!    :D 8)

[David Freed]

John,
If you don't care to say, how much do you spend on advertising?

[TexasTimbers]

I am always tinkering/exploring with advertising - paid and free. Free is better when it works.

The landscape changes quickly on the internet. Often when you get a great response from an ad or new exposure somewhere you can get inundated with orders. But it's best to do steady exploration even when you hit your fulfillment cieling and don't need any current advertisement, so that when you do need some more orders, you have an idea where you want to be using your money and/or time and don't have to start from scratch.   Easier said than done but you *can* achieve this sort of approach if you keep at it. You'll get better each month.

Even in the short time since I have posted on this thread, I have no longer have any intention of another adword campaing. I am not saying I will never again use adwords because overall I still come out in the black, but the best bang for the buck is not always found on google.

The best things in life are often free, and sometimes the internet is no exception. Lots of ways to skin cats David. Don't wear Google blinders. Patty is correct about ad copy though. No matter where you hang your shingle, it has to grab the prospect.


Adwords you can my grits.  For now at least.  ;D