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Author Topic: 880 stihl problems  (Read 9306 times)

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Offline gibby

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880 stihl problems
« on: April 30, 2008, 09:43:25 am »
880 stihl problems

Using the 880 on my procut mill last weekend and the machine just stopped. Pulled my arm off trying to restart. Removed the spark plug and it was dry and clean, clean the air filter and shoot some starting fluid down the cab and still nothing.

Now this machine is 23 months old bought it brand new so I would not have problems on the mill and it has run about 48 gallons of stihl mix through it, that is about 2 gallons a month. One of them little stihl 2 cycle mix bottles to two gallons of gas. That is the way the dealer said to run it a little rich on the 2 cycle oil.

Dropped it to the dealer and he call and said the top end was burnt up new head cylinder rings and piston, about $1,000.00 dollars worth of work. He has it back together, and he said it will not run at an idle.

Anyway here is my question, do I have any recourse with stihl as the warranty is 2 years

Thanks gibby

Offline little Bark

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Re: 880 stihl problems
« Reply #1 on: April 30, 2008, 11:59:54 am »
Was your mix 50:1 or 100:1?
Always use the rite tool for the job.

Offline sawguy21

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Re: 880 stihl problems
« Reply #2 on: April 30, 2008, 12:40:26 pm »
That was my first question. Stihl has bottles for one and two gallon, which did you use?
old age and treachery will always overcome youth and enthusiasm

Offline gibby

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Re: 880 stihl problems
« Reply #3 on: April 30, 2008, 01:38:56 pm »
50:1

the mix is one bottle to 2.5 gallons but I have been mixing to 2 gallons so running a little rich on the oil

Offline jokers

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Re: 880 stihl problems
« Reply #4 on: April 30, 2008, 07:05:49 pm »
Your oil ratio is a step in the right direction for severe service gibby, I run 32:1.

How clean do you keep the powerhead? Do the fins get filled with sawdust and mung? I`ve seen saws ruined by overheating from being worked too hard with not enough air flow over the engine. An overheat seizure will normally have scoring on both the intake and exhaust sides of the piston versus a lean seize which will normally have scoring only on the exhaust side, or it will be markedly heavier on the exhaust side.

Depending on the constituents of your local gas the oil may have also lost it`s solubility over time, this is why it`s recommended that no one keep mixed gas for more than a month. A seizure from loss of oil solubility will resemble what happens when straight gas is run in a saw, it will be very similar in appearance to an overheat seizure. Unfortunately overheat seizures are very hard on an engine, harder than a lean seize IMO. If the piston wrist pin turned blue from the heat I would examine the bottom end bearings very carefully, I`m assuming that the dealer did this upon the teardown?

If it`s just a lean seize first you have to figure out why it lean seized and correct that problem then you can probably get away with cleaning the cylinder and installing a new piston, rings, and wrist pin clips.

I don`t think that you have any recourse against Stihl in this case.

Offline Al_Smith

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Re: 880 stihl problems
« Reply #5 on: May 02, 2008, 09:24:20 am »
 Something is amiss. If that thing had any compression at all it should have started,seize or no,which I guestion to begin with .

I've seen many a dealer talk people into a major overhaul where just a set of rings and a clean up would keep a saw running for several more years without dumping a ton of money in it .

It would seem to me that if that thing doesn't run after a thousand bucks worth of work evidently the mechanic is lacking in experstise to repair the thing in the first place .

I suppose with that comment several Stihl dealers will throw darts  at me but hey,I call them as I see them,.

Offline gibby

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Re: 880 stihl problems
« Reply #6 on: May 02, 2008, 01:07:04 pm »
thanks for the feed back.

am going to see what the dealer has to say after he talks to stihl

Offline gibby

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Re: 880 stihl problems
« Reply #7 on: May 02, 2008, 04:45:36 pm »
Joker

you run "Your oil ratio is a step in the right direction for severe service gibby, I run 32:1." that is what i run in my older saws but this new stihl is to run at 50:1, as it is i am running at something like 40:1 as i am mixing rich. as the stihl oil instructions say one bottle to 2.5 gallons of gas, i go 2 gallons to one bottle.

running the 32:1 in the new machine would it tend to foul the spark plug?

thanks Joker i hope to talk to the dealer tomorrow

Offline jokers

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Re: 880 stihl problems
« Reply #8 on: May 02, 2008, 05:57:02 pm »
gibby,

All of my saws(Stihls, Huskies, Dolmars, and an Echo Power Pruner) are also designed to run at 50:1 but I have no issues with plug fouling or carbon buildup.

I believe that having the carb set excessively rich will cause more fouling and buildup problems than the rich oil mixture. If you are concerned about excessive carbon, run a synthetic oil because they seem to have a decarbonizing effect I`ve found during my synthetic oil phase, LOL.

I only run name brand oils like Stihl, Husky, Echo, Jonsered. I also haven`t taken the bottom end out of my 385 like so many guys who run 50:1 have and all of my saws with the exception of the Power Pruner are modified and turning high rpms in the cut.

I`m a believer in 32:1.

Offline joe_indi

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Re: 880 stihl problems
« Reply #9 on: May 03, 2008, 12:53:40 am »
Quote
Using the 880 on my procut mill last weekend and the machine just stopped. Pulled my arm off trying to restart. Removed the spark plug and it was dry and clean,

It looks like your saw had a minor seizure due to overheating.Probably due to blocked cylinder fins like Jokers explained.The dry and clean plug could be due to this.(no warranty)
But, the fact that the engine could be turned over in your attempts to re-start it shows the seizure was only minor.If it was a bad one the engine would have been locked solidly.
In a minor seizure, the rings on the exhaust side get stuck in their grooves.
There should be no bigger damage than a few minor scratches on the piston, and a bit of piston deposits on the cylinder walls(easily removed with muratic acid).
Buffing the piston lightly, carefully getting the rings out of their grooves and switching the upper and lower rings should have had your saw running again.A cylinder replacement would not be necessary.
If the dealer has replaced the cylinder assembly(includes cylinder, piston & rings), and the saw shows an idling problem, this could be  the root cause of the initial seizure.In that case,the cause could have been failure of some other part, like the carb. If that was the cause of the seizure, it cannot be considered an 'operational error and I don't see why you cannot  claim a warranty replacement.
But, at the same time, the cause could also have been a partially blocked pickup body(no warranty).
Regarding fuel:oil ratio,  Stihl 2 cycle oil costs 10 times more than other oils here.
So we follow the Stihl recommended ratio for other oils which is 25:1(4%).I have not seen excessive carbon buildup because of this. I think it depends on the quality of 2 cycle oil that you use.We get some good semi synthetic grades here of Castrol and Idemitsu (Japan). With the increase in ambient temperature we advice saw owners to increase the oil a bit more (5%), to avoid the risk of piston seizure.
Joe

Offline Al_Smith

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Re: 880 stihl problems
« Reply #10 on: May 03, 2008, 02:59:12 am »
  Not to start the oil wars for the umteenth time but this is something to think about .

Even old outboard engines running 40Wt oil for mix at 16 to one did not foul plugs .New saws running 32 to one do not foul plugs .

I have a modified 038 Stihl  Mag that must be close to 190 PSI static compression running 32 to one,it does not foul plugs .Fact is,believe it or not I have 30 year old saws that I've never changed the plugs in,all ran 32 to one.They never fouled plugs .Nor for that matter has any of them ever carboned up .

That said,run them how you like,they are your saws .

Offline jokers

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Re: 880 stihl problems
« Reply #11 on: May 03, 2008, 11:06:40 am »
Hi joe_indi,

Always good to get your input even though sometimes I see things a bit differently than you.

Of course Al knows that he and I agree on many things mechanical, right Al?  ;)

One point for consideration gibby, if your dealer reassembled your saw after cleaning up the cylinder and piston, using the original parts, it may not idle properly because the piston skirt to cylinder wall clearance has been increased by the clean up. This increased clearance affects the engine`s ability to draw in a fresh fuel/air charge and subsequently compress it and force it through the transfers and into the combustion chamber. The affect is still present during high speed operation but is harder to see.

I normally replace the piston and rings on a saw that has been seized to the point where the rings have been trapped in the grooves unless it was an extremely small amount of galled material trapping the rings. I`ve tried re-using a piston after a significant clean up and it has always resulted in idle problems and some times obvious acceleration issues.

New pistons are relatively cheap. The cylinders are pretty durable and are usually recoverable. I just want to add that you must ensure that all muriatic acid is thoroughly flushed from the cylinder when you are done cleaning because obviously, it will eventually cause damage to the uncoated aluminum parts.

I think that you will find a lot of info for repairing seized saws by searching this forum.

Offline Al_Smith

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Re: 880 stihl problems
« Reply #12 on: May 03, 2008, 12:23:29 pm »
Of course Al knows that he and I agree on many things mechanical, right Al?  ;)

   
Well,although it's rare we do agree on some things .32 to one,comes to mind  among others  ;D

A piston is usually cheap compaired to a whole cylinder /piston assembley.How some ever ,I for one have saved quite a few that most would consider junk and had good results .Every case could be different though with the amount of slop and tilt in a worn piston so this must be considered .

I personally feel a lot of money has been spent unneccessarily by some on costly repairs that are not really needed .Just about any saw that has been properly maintain will literally provide year upon years of good service with just routine maintanence.However a saw in milling service is subjected to extreme duty as compaired to a faller or firewood cutter.That said extra effort must be given in that situation .

All that said,if a person dumped a thousand bucks in repairing  a saw one would expect that it would run properly .Good heavens I have a pair of old Lombards made in '68 with bad seals that start easy, idle and run fine until they warm up and leak at the seals .Soo.why in the world this relatively new saw in question does not idle remains a big question .

Were it I,I do believe I would dump it back on the mechanic and say fix it.You already have over the half the price of a new saw in the repairs already .No more money should change hands in my opinion .

Offline jokers

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Re: 880 stihl problems
« Reply #13 on: May 03, 2008, 12:37:39 pm »
Al,

From reading gibby`s initial post I`m not sure if he actually paid the $1000 to have the saw repaired, we`ll need clarification on that.

I couldn`t agree more that if he did infact pay $1000, the saw should run flawlessly.

Offline Al_Smith

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Re: 880 stihl problems
« Reply #14 on: May 03, 2008, 01:25:19 pm »
 Oh it's next to impossible to trouble shoot a saw problem over the internet .Too many where's and why for's and incomplete info .

For all we might know the mechanic could have just lifted the muffler cover,took a peek and bolted it back together after doing a 3 minute look see .Buuut,if that contraption has that usual hard to spin over compression an 088 is famous for I'd bet a dollar to a doughnut that nothing is wrong with the innards .

That said,if that saw ran a ok  then refused to start after setting for a spell,I think I would look else where for the problem  than a funky cylinder /piston . Unless they get fed a diet of straight gas they don't give up the ghost in short order like that .

Offline gibby

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Re: 880 stihl problems
« Reply #15 on: May 07, 2008, 07:27:01 pm »
Gentlemen,

Here is the report from the stihl guy that fixed the 088;

He replaced the piston, rings, cylinder, and carb. Grand total $898.00.

Asked him why it over heated he said we ran the wrong oil in it. He said use only the Stihl oil.

The cooling fins where clean, the piston was burnt on the exhaust side, but the intake side was clean, the wrist pin for the piston was clean, no bluing, or evidence of over heating.

The mechanic said after he replaced the top end new piston rings cylinder, the machine would not idle so he replaced the carb. ????

Ok, we ran 2 tank fills of Redmax 2 cycle oil mixed at 32:1, as my partner said he mixed one of the bottles with one gallon of gasoline. That was the problem as the mechanic said.

Well I guess I will chalk this up as an expensive lesson.

Thanks for all the feed back

gibby

Offline jokers

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Re: 880 stihl problems
« Reply #16 on: May 07, 2008, 08:52:35 pm »
Burnt on the exhaust side is indicative of a lean sieze, not a lack of or too much oil. Hope you got a warranty on those repairs but I`m going to be blunt, it sounds like this repair guy put it to you pretty hard and replaced the carb to cover his tracks. Chalk that up to a lesson learned.

Offline Captain

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Re: 880 stihl problems
« Reply #17 on: May 07, 2008, 09:36:26 pm »
I'll agree it sounds like a lean fuel mixture problem, root cause being in the carb not the mix.

Captain

Offline gibby

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Re: 880 stihl problems
« Reply #18 on: May 07, 2008, 10:34:09 pm »
ok now i am a little concerned, this is the same guy I bought the saw from to begin with (new). How can I determine if the machine is still set up to run lean?

From the start the guy said he set the high end tack, a little lower so the machine would not run a full RPMs as ripping on a mill is tough on a saw.

How can I bring my plea to Stihl for some warranty support?

Again thanks for the help gentlemen.

gibby

Offline jokers

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Re: 880 stihl problems
« Reply #19 on: May 07, 2008, 10:51:51 pm »
Gibby,

If I were you I`d get my hands of the damaged parts ASAP and then deal directly with Stihl. They have guys who are expert in fuel and oil failure analysis. I`ll bet that they will also be very interested to hear that your dealer says this saw died, with these indicators, from running too much oil or oil that isn`t good enough. They will probably also be very interested that the dealer also had to replace the carb. You`re getting hosed based on what you`ve described here.

PS: Sometimes I get so caught up in the moment that I walk right past what`s right in front of me. If the oil quality or ratio were the root cause of this seizure, why wasn`t the cylinder scored all the way around, the wrist pin blued or otherwise damaged, and how can this dealer/tech be sure that no bottom end damage occured thus rendering the saw not suitable for a rebuild? How did the oil ratio or quality damage the carb beyond being rebuildable for $25 vs the hundred + he probably whacked you for the new carb? Get your old parts back, I`m sure they will tell the true tale of what happened to your saw.