Leveling a circle mill

[jason.weir]

I've got the foundation ready for my mill project. How does everyone hook the rails & husk (hemlock timbers) to the foundation while allowing adjustment for leveling.  Just threaded rod set in the concrete with shims?  Any better ideas?

BTW - I picked up a 371 Detroit from JSNH yesterday night along with what looks to be a complete Heacock feed setup, a bunch of misc Lane friction feed parts and a whole truck load of misc parts I know will come to good use.  Thank you John...

Pictures to come after the weather brightens...

-J

[Woodchuck53]

Evening J- Thats all I did on the new location. 2 8" J-bolts in when we poured foootings and set a 4"x1/2" flat across these. Brought in the h-beams and shimed as needed. Seems it should work when using the wood. Pop a line and #8 bolted the 8# rail's  to the steel with just a hint of shim between the steel. Only 2 or 3 places. CV

[bandmiller2]

Jason,old handset mills survive on shims,thats pretty much the only way to do it.Their are not many of us rebuilding old mills,I think its easier to build a bandmill than rebuild an old circle mill.But nothing worthwile ever comes easy.I can't make too many comments until I see pictures of your foundation.I'am working in the outher direction mill rebuilt first then foundation,putting the carrage togather now.Carrage is 14' steel 3X6" I beams on all new 1 7/16 pillow block brgs.Jason do you have a blade yet??I'am going to have to come up this summer and see your progress.Frank C.

[jason.weir]

Frank - your welcome anytime.

I'm up for the challenge or I'm not smart enough to know better, either way a circle mill it is.....

I do have a blade a 52" 52 tooth - not sure of the pattern, I'll have to get a picture.  Hopefully something common.

Should the track be supported its entire length?  If not what would be the max span you would comfortably go with 4x6 hemlock, right now I've got 5' between supports but can reconfigure if need be.

The foundation is (10) 2' x 2' x 8' concrete block - frost is going to move it around thus the need adjustment capability.

Once its up and running I will pour more permanent footings in an area a little bit further from the house.

What do you use for shims, hardwood? steel?

Its still just a pile of parts but I'm doing a 16' carriage with 50' of track, new Hemlock all around, Heacock feed, power receeder, detroit power.  I've got a couple big blowers but may go with a drag chain or conveyor of some type.

Enough for now - pictures to come this weekend

-Jason

[Woodchuck53]

Jason when I originaly moved mine the guy had it on 12"x12"x 5' cresoted timbers spaced 4" apart. Then he lai 8"x12"x 18' sleepers across these. The husk was set on 2 12"x12"x 12'  pc. between the  4' stuff. Every so many feet he had driven old oil field 27/8" production tubing down against the sleepers. Some of those bad boys where 8' down. The mill was handling 36" to 50" lake cypress down in Bordeleonville, La. iIt was mostly rotted by the time I bought. I'm going to try and get a bunch of picture of my progress on here in the next 2/3 weeks. But I will tell you this, we don't have the frost heave you guys have but I sunk 8'x 12" cresoted pilimgs under my barn alley way and topped that off with 28"x 54"x 24" caps. I had the pilings so used them full lenght. I was tired of readajusting all the time. On top of my footings is 8"x6" I-beam, my rails are bolted to this. I have gotten some 38" pine and 46" oak on the old set up so want to be ready for anything. Hope I didn't get to long winded. Have fun. Chuck

[Ron Wenrich]

You gotta get that husk on a foundation that's below frost line.  You can't have your husk move.   When you start to put your mill together, you'll be coming from your husk and working your way out. 

Our first hand mill was put on cinder block filled with concrete.  The husk was sitting on 12x12 Doug fir.  Where the track was inserted in front of the saw, I notched it so the track sat inside the notch.  That way you can also adjust left to right as well as up and down.  Pound a wedge shim and the track won't move.  Everything is stable.

Further out, we supported the track with a 6x6.  We went every 10 foot on the lumber side of the mill, and every 5 foot on the log loading side.  You want more support back where you're loading logs, and you have the most weight and the most pounding.  Lumber side is mainly for unloading the carriage and doesn't take the pounding or have as much weight.

A lot depends on how good of frame that you have. 

[bandmiller2]

Jason heavy is good,that said if a mill is not commercial and has no mechanical log turner you can get by with a modest foundation.As Ron said we have to contend with frost.What I'am going to do is sink sections of phone pole in  a goodly amount of cement reason being its undoable when I go extinct my heirs will just have to cut them blow grade and fill shallow holes,rather than deal with massive concrete buttresses.Talk about considerate,but i'll leave alot of junk so they will remember me.I figure a pair of poles every 4' notched with heavy cross timbers bolted on more around the husk.Jason probibly if you dug a hole and put crushed stone like railroad ballest and burried those blocks about half way you'd be ok,a little sawdust around keeps the frost from going too deep. Frank C.

[bandmiller2]

Jason as far as shims go if you have alot of space to take up wood is good but for most shimming better use steel.Have a bunch of various thicknesses precut makes it easier.From what you say 52" saw with 52 teeth probibly 2 1/2 pattern.As for the carrage trucks many old mills had the guide and flat wheel locked on the same shaft,that causes alot of wear unless their exactly the same diameter and they seldom are.What I'am doing is leaving the guide wheels fast to the shaft running through two pillow blocks.The flat saw side wheels can turn on the shaft.[grease fittings installed]The only turning they will do is the correction between the diameter differance.

[jason.weir]

Here are the pictures I promised of the mill site and stuff

Concrete Waste block 2'x2'x8' weighing in at 4500lbs apiece


They are spaced 5' apart and set in stone and all within a couple inches of level and plumb of each other.


Depending on finished height of the mill, they most likely will be filled in around with gravel.

Here is the Detroit Diesel I picked up from forum member JSNH


another


Here is an up close of the blade, is the pattern identifiable to anyone?


-Jason

[Ron Wenrich]

The saw pattern is a numbered one.  I've never used a numbered saw, I've always used B or F pattern.  There should be a number on the shank.

[bandmiller2]

Jason 52 is alot of teeth that saw is going to want to be fed 4 1/2 to 5" inches per rev.AS Ron said if you can find a shank thats not rusted too bad wire wheel it and try to find some numbers or letters.I would leave the shanks and teeth in the blade until I cleaned up the plate.When I cleaned mine I started with a cup wire wheel on an angle grinder then scotchbrite type pads.Soak with penetrating oil.Give the rusted in tooth a light tap on the top back to loosen it.When you know which tooth pattern you have you can get the right wrench for the shanks.Frank C.

[JSNH]

That looks like 2 1/2" shanks I have the same on my 52" blade. Like the above post wire bush one and you should see a 2 1/2 on it. I have a 48" blade with 2 1/2 shanks. Maybe we can work out a trade if you don't want a 52".

[bandmiller2]

Jason will your loader/backhoe pick up those blocks,I see cat tracks around the site.If the soil is well drained and their sitting on crushed stone give it a try.Like I said a little sawdust around keeps the frost from going too deep.My bandmill is sitting on 8 cement blocks set about 6" in the ground was going to be temperary to try it, the mill has stayed level summer and winter for three years mayby they rise and fall togather?Say a little prayer on those blade shanks and teeth my last blade looked like 2 1/2, but was diston #44 on the shank.

[jason.weir]

My Case backhoe will not lift the blocks (4500lbs) - my brother's excavator (17000lb machine) will, that is what we set them with.  The tracks are from an International TD-15, you can just see it in the blade picture. 

The soil is fairly well drained and I've got it sloped so water will run away from the site.  I would have loved to pour proper footings and a full foundation but if I ever want to get this done I need to stop making the project bigger.  Plans are to bury the concrete about a foot and a half and let sawdust do its magic. We will see.

Hopefully it not a Diston blade, if so oh well I'll look elsewhere.

John - Thanks! - I'm going to try to spin the 52 if I can't I'll probably have to go to something smaller.  I've been doing some research and it looks like a new (bigger) set of injectors in the 3-71 will get me to 115HP @ 2100 rpm, that should be plenty...  Run it at 2000 even and get a 4:1 pulley setup to get the arbor to 500, blade hammered to match.  Set the feed up to do 5 1/2" per revolution max.  Should be a good place to start and adjust from there.

-Jason

[JSNH]

Run it as is. A 48" with 2 1/2" shanks would not be better than a 52" with the same. You would have about the same # of teeth in the cut and need the same power. The 371 should work good as is but it is good to know you can boost the Hp if needed.

[jason.weir]

John,

It was my plan to run it as is and up the HP if needed. +HP = +Diesel =  :(

5.5" (a little over 9/10" cut per tooth) of feed = 230 ft per minute (@ 500 rpm) or 3.8 ft per second.

I realize that is just the theoretical max but it seems to me thats going to take some power.

[Ron Wenrich]

Your saw will tell you the feed speed.  I know all those theoretical feed rates, but the logs don't.  Some can be fed at fast speeds, and some can't.  Remember that when your saw starts to die, you are no longer running at the speed for which its hammered. 

Saws are designed to rip through the log.  But, knots are cross cuts.  So, in a knotty log, you're cutting 2 different types of wood in one cut.  It changes the dynamics somewhat.

[rpg52]

Hi Jason,
I wish I could give you some practical advice, but, alas, that is still a ways off for me.  I have a Belsaw I've been working on for too long.  I have an old (1946) 3-71 for power.  A rule of thumb I heard was 3 hp/tooth, (I'm sure your calculations are more accurate, but likely similar).  I figured I'd need ~75 hp for my blade(s) (one 40" B pattern and a 48" 3 pattern).  If you increase the injector, you should have a 4 valve head, turbo even better.  I'm figuring to run mine at about 1800 rpm, reduced through a differential to spin the blade at about 560 rpm.  I actually put in smaller injectors, because my old 2 valve head didn't breathe well enough and the larger injectors caused a lot of smoke.  They say the type of wood also has a great effect on the power needed, so, as they say, it really depends.  Good luck to you.
Ray

[jason.weir]

Ron,

Thanks for the reminder - because I don't have the experience you guys do, I have to start somewhere and the theoretical numbers are as good as any I guess.

I assume the goal is to adjust feed rate to keep the saw spinning at hammered speed.  Whats acceptable +/- 50 rpm? 100 rpm?

I plan to set the mill up using those number as the max if I held the feed lever full on assuming no slip.  I would still have variable feed rates up to that maximum.  Does that sound reasonable?  Or am I missing something.


Ray,

Thanks for the info on the 3-71, I believe I have a 1964 unit, not sure which head but definitely a non-turbo unit.

-Jason

[Ron Wenrich]

That sounds reasonable, but I think you'll find that everything is pretty well set up in the mechanics of those old mills.  In other words, if you reduce the speed of your engine, your feed speeds also are reduced.  I don't think you could over feed those old mills, but I'm not sure.  If you change over to hydraulics as a feed, then you can have problems.

I'm running a 75 GPM pump to run my mill.  With the current setup, I can adjust my maximum feed and my maximum return.  Right now, my max feed is 34% and my max return is 66%.  If I set my max feed up too fast, it is hard to contol.  The max return can also be hard to stop. 

Which reminds me, put an old tire at each end of your track.  When the cable breaks, you'll have something soft to hit and your carriage doesn't run off the ends of the track.   :D

[bandmiller2]

Jason,when I built my first circle mill,I had a four speed truck transmission so I could adjust the feed.Oak cuts alot harder than pine,I'd have to downshift or the old cat would really blacksmoke.Old circle mills are pretty much a seat of your pants operation,what you sense and feel means more than theory and calculations.I think most of the three and four cyl. green screamers came off road pavers,apparently they lasted longer than the paver.I've worked on detroits most of my life,something I just discovered,on adjusting the injector timing,use vernier calipers.Insted of the little "T" gage use the depth measure on the vernier set the base of the caliper on the flat of the injector and extend the depth probe of the caliper to the base that measurement is given in the manual.Injector timing is very important on any diesel it can make the power differance.Frank C.

[jason.weir]

I cleaned off one of the shanks and it shows 2 1/2 X 8 - 2

So the 8 is the gauge of the saw - what does the 2 mean, second oversize perhaps??

At least its not a Diston..

Next project - Build a husk...

-J

[bandmiller2]

Jason,you lucked out on your blade,your probibly right on the second oversize on the shanks,but I don't know for sure.Simmons on their website sometimes has sales on bits and shanks,usally on stuff that doesn't move too fast I remember seeing oversize shanks.You would have been better off if your blade had 50 teeth ,shanks come 50 to a box and bits 100,My old headsaw had 33 teeth, three changes per box of bits.Bruce at sawmill tool and service co. will sell any number you want.Oh check our sponsers .Frank C.

[Ron Wenrich]

On the lettered saws like B or F pattern, they use a letter for an oversized shank.  So, the number thing may hold out for an oversized shank.  I'm not too sure how many oversizes they can go.

[jason.weir]

The Simond's site lists 4 oversizes for the 2 1/2 style...

Hopefully what I've got will be tight when all the rust is gone and I'll still have 2 more to go..  I doubt I'll ever saw that much though..

-Jason