iDRY Vacuum Kilns

Sponsors:

LT70 E25 vs. LT70 D62

Started by Dave Shepard, April 27, 2008, 10:45:58 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Dave Shepard

Which has a higher production rate? If the Cat beats the electric, then why don't they offer an E30 model? I really like 3 phase for stationary mills.


Dave
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

Bibbyman

That's a good question...  I don't know if there is anyone that has ran both for a long enough production run to say if one would outperform the other. 

But when you add things up,  if you were sawing mobile and didn't have a gen set handy to drag for site to site, then I'd think you'd want a 62 CAT.  But if you were planning to set up stationary and had 3ph available, 3ph is a no brainer (unless you're Amish). 

When you're sawing there is just so much power you can put to a given blade.  And so much cutting speed you can use.  Yea,  maybe the 62 CAT may have an edge when sawing the biggest logs using the thickest, widest blade available.  But if you're sawing average size logs, would you notice the difference?  I doubt it.

There are so many other things that affect the overall output.  Comparing the 62 CAT with the 25hp 3ph,  you'd think everything else would be the same – head travel speed, hydraulic function, etc.  That may not necessarily be so.  The new LT70 with 25hp 3ph motor is also all AC.  That is,  it does not rely on 12v DC motors to power the head or hydraulic pumps, etc.   I've not seen a 25 hp LT70 saw so I don't know.  A lot would depend on the conditions and sawyer.

Maybe Wood-Mizer has done some production testing and could answer your question.  But they tend to not say much about their electric mills.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDE25 Super 25hp 3ph with Command Control and Accuset.
Sawing since '94

Dave Shepard

I have come to the conclusion that if I was to go on the road with a sawmill, I'd jack the back of my truck up in the air and belt drive a generator off of one of the wheels if I didn't have a portable genset.


Dave
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

logwalker

Dave, that might be a little hard on the spiders in the diff. I don't know how they would take that. Joe
Let's all be careful out there tomorrow. Lt40hd, 22' Kenworth Flatbed rollback dump, MM45B Mitsubishi trackhoe, Clark5000lb Forklift, Kubota L2850 tractor

Pwdrblast

Electric to me sounds like excellent idea. No fumes, alot less noise, less operating cost, less intial cost, don't have spend time warming  before sawing or cool down time. No oil changes , Dont have be spend time fueling.  I run the  cat, wishing I  bought the electric.

Dave Shepard

Quote from: logwalker on April 28, 2008, 10:00:39 PM
Dave, that might be a little hard on the spiders in the diff. I don't know how they would take that. Joe

It's a limited slip, so it might not be a problem. ::) :D

Dodge makes a hybrid drive Cummins pickup. I don't know if it's 3phase or not, but it has a ton of kw's available for on site power generation.  ;) If I were to do it, I would put the genset on the front of the gooseneck and the Kubota on the back, I wouldn't saw without material handling.


Dave
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

sparks

Here are the comparisons between the D62 to E25 LT70. Hope this helps.   Thanks all and be careful out there.
\"America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.\" Abraham Lincoln

Bibbyman

Thank Sparks.

Do you have any idea of the production rate? 

Or cutting speed through 12" red oak? 
Wood-Mizer LT40HDE25 Super 25hp 3ph with Command Control and Accuset.
Sawing since '94

schmism

Quote from: Bibbyman on April 27, 2008, 11:51:40 PM
But when you add things up,  if you were sawing mobile and didn't have a gen set handy to drag for site to site, then I'd think you'd want a 62 CAT.

If im doing my math right.... a 220/440 25hp motor pulls somewere in the neighborhood of 65/32 amps.   65*220=14300 volt-amps (cough watts cough)

so thats a 15Kw genny outputing 3phase....  (if thats right i wouldnt go anything less than a 20Kw)

as pto genny's come up often over on the tractor board, the rule of thumb is about 5hp pto per Kw.

so thats a 100hp motor driveing a 20Kw 3phase genny.

so for "portable" you just moved your 62hp cat to the ground connected to a generator head instead of spinning a blade.
039 Stihl 010AV  NH TC33D FEL, with toys

sparks

Bibby, to many variables so they stay away from posting those figures. 
\"America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.\" Abraham Lincoln

sparks

schmism, we recommends a 52KVA generator for the LT70 electric. Remember you have the blade motor, up/down motor, power feed motor, debarker motor, hydraulic motor all pulling on the generator at the same time. A 52KVA generator cover all the highest loads the motors can oull at one time to be sure the generator doesn't bweown out.   Thanks all and be careful out there.
\"America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.\" Abraham Lincoln

Dave Shepard

Quote from: schmism on April 30, 2008, 01:23:26 PM
Quote from: Bibbyman on April 27, 2008, 11:51:40 PM
But when you add things up,  if you were sawing mobile and didn't have a gen set handy to drag for site to site, then I'd think you'd want a 62 CAT.

If im doing my math right.... a 220/440 25hp motor pulls somewere in the neighborhood of 65/32 amps.   65*220=14300 volt-amps (cough watts cough)

so thats a 15Kw genny outputing 3phase....  (if thats right i wouldnt go anything less than a 20Kw)

as pto genny's come up often over on the tractor board, the rule of thumb is about 5hp pto per Kw.

so thats a 100hp motor driveing a 20Kw 3phase genny.

so for "portable" you just moved your 62hp cat to the ground connected to a generator head instead of spinning a blade.


Gensets typically are 1.34 hp per kw. Yes, you are technically just moving the engine to the ground, but the engine is going to be running at a continuous rpm, mine runs at 1260 rpms, that is less than the CAT 62 idles at. I don't like the constant low idle to high idle that is required of the diesel engine on a mill. Noise fatigue is a serious factor in industrial settings. Running a genset also allows you to run an edger and other stuff with only one engine to buy/maintain.


Dave
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

Chris Burchfield

Sparks, I don't see the up down and/or hydraulics being used at the same time as the debarker when sawing. Up down, saw, remove updown while sawing and no hydraulics once your in the cut.  P.S. modified reply, Diesel here is $4.05 at the Wal-store.
Woodmizer LT40SH W/Command Control; 51HP Cat, Memphis TN.

Mobilesawyer

Another facter you might want to consider is resale down the road.
Now I have not gathered any real data but it seems to me that the Diesel or Gas  engine powered mills in the used market are sold more often. I watch the exchange and the for sale section here and it looks that way at a glance.

I have a question that might seem overly simple but if you buy a Diesel powered generator to power your electric mill have you really gained anything? This assumes that you are buying new and have a choice of either.

Dave Shepard

In my opinion, it is a question of whether or not you ever want to go portable. If you are set up permanantly, I think electric is definately the way to go, whether on grid, genset, or converter. It moves all the noise, exhaust fumes, etc out of the building. Bibbyman can tell you more about running off of a converter, I have only used a genset. I have run two mills that are twins, except for the motors, and I prefer the electric over the gas. A genset can have as big a fuel tank as you are brave enough to fill. I am running mine off of an old trailer truck saddle tank, at 90 gallons, that's enough for 90 hours of uninterupted milling. A generator engine is much longer lived than engines that power mills, tractors or trucks. The steady low rpm's are just the way a diesel engine wants to run. I had a conversation with a marine diesel mechanic last week, he had just overhauled a Kubota genset with 47,000 hours on it. :o :o

At my last job, we were using a small JD tractor on the sawdust blower, so part of the start up routine was to make sure the mill was fueled, check oil, fire it up. Check fuel, oil and start tractor. Give it a minute to warm up, if it would start in the cold  ;) , then engage the blower. Then the gas engine on the mill would be cold blooded til it warmed up. At quitting time, you would have to idle everything down and shut it all off, then find fuel for everything for the next day. I converted the blower to electric and put all of my starter buttons next to the mill, so I could start the mill, the blower and edger from one spot, instant on. ;D This saved a tremendous amount of time everyday, and we were workin on getting a big converter to run the mill on 3phase as well. The little JD used almost as much fuel to run the blower as my genset does to run the electric mill.




Dave
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

bandmiller2

Anouther advantage of the LT70 elect. is all the smaller motors are 3 phase and standard industrial gear boxes,12v motors are expensive and use brushes.Three phase motors run just shy of forever, only thing that wears out are two relitivly cheap ball bearings.being able to hear the band and coworkers priceless.Dave do you wear hearing protection with the elect.?? Frank C.
A man armed with common sense is packing a big piece

Dave Shepard

Yes, the hiss of the band is just the right pitch that I find it uncomfortable. I do like being able to hear the band in the cut. I sawed through a 1/2" lag bolt on thursday, didn't even hear it, but saw the cut rise up. Dug out the old bolt, put on a new band, and hit seven more. Was reclaiming 12"x14"x45' bridge crane timbers made from SYP. Going to make some beautiful tight grain flooring, with some bolt holes. ::) ;D


Dave
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

bandmiller2

Thats a real big advantage with a bandmill you can cut valuable or unusual logs and cants you would not dare do on a headrig.Frank C.
A man armed with common sense is packing a big piece

Thank You Sponsors!