Wood Theif Mess? update

Woodchuck53 · April 29, 2008, 06:00:00 AM

Just a couple word's on the subject. References, references, references. Check out the reputation of any one you allow on your property. I will always follow my own advice from now on. CV

bull · April 29, 2008, 07:07:08 AM

Dave and Cindy.... You must know *(Paul " Doint " Boynton)*.... I haven't been to camp in three years.... used to go every other weekend.... May be up around the 1st of June for fish week..... My dad and brothers hunted last fall and closed camp 2nd week of November...

grassy · April 29, 2008, 10:07:35 AM

Hey Everyone, I know this is complicated!!! 30 cords of firewood is alot of firewood. And anyone wanting that much firewood, is up to something $$$$. I know, its almost a stack as long as a football field. This fellow owns 55 acres of his own . Thats exactly what we own 66 acres. He never paid for the wood. So if a person did NOT pay, i dont think they have much of a leg to stand on. You have to understand, this fellow took thousands..... he is guilty and acts guilty. He will NOT bring attention to himself again. He already has been exposed to the police. He would not sue my father for breech of contract with all the goods i have on him. And he is not that smart. I know it is 30 cords because my boyfriend walked it, and the logger told me that is what was cut, by him.
I know you guys are not lawyers, but you DO know the wood business, and I think it is a very good place to be. In my opinion.
The forest Ranger? He was a very nice fellow... very interested in the whole mess, but more of a stand point of the TREES and the violations that may have occured. Now the Logger(cutter) Is a nice fellow, who just got sucked in. I do not want the logger to receive fines!!!!! The forest ranger was also interested in what the theif cut the year before, which was about 4 cords... up the road ,left a mess, and never cleaned that up either, in a wetland type area. The theif has a tactic, starts slow and then goes for the big heist. First year 4 cords, second year 30!!!! OK you know how it is? LOOK out there might be an endangered FROG????. But we are going to get back to the forest ranger, we might need him to help. Ok heres a question, would the logger be in trouble or the agent? we told the forest ranger the logger was an ok guy. No beef with him. thats what i am worried about also? cindy

Tom · April 29, 2008, 10:21:07 AM

Grassy,
You need to use the Law to solve your problem and the Law shouldn't be manipulated to favor one person over another. To get a conviction, a DA might favor. Because of intent, a Judge might favor. Your job, as the violated, is to obtain restitution and justice through the court system. It's the court system that assigns guilt to crime. Don't get too wrapped up with whom you are mad. Let the people, whose job it is, assign the blame.

bigtreesinwa · April 29, 2008, 10:26:43 AM

Cindy,

Again I feel badly for your situation. But I want to put things into perspective for you (since you asked).

It's all in the contract. Take a look at the contract and see the terms and conditions that were agreed to. If the contract required form of payment, he is obligated to pay otherwise you can take him to court for failing to pay. If the contract provided the wood at no charge (my father once did that kind of contract for good reason) then the person removing the wood does not have to pay.

Do you have a copy of the contracts that were signed? If so, read them carefully and everything should be spelled out.

As far as any environmental reviews, I can't answer specifically on how it works in Maine. Generally the person doing the damage or breaking the law (which would be the logger in this case) is the one responsible. But I don't think you'll see a lot of interest in procesucting loggers for breaking environmental laws. I'm guessing most of around here can think of more than a few places we'd like to stick most of the enviromental legislations.

Hope that helps

grassy · April 29, 2008, 11:10:10 AM

This is for Bull, Hey you are a few miles from us.!!!! Dave says you'll have to stop in and have a beer, if you drink Beer? we're right on the main road, a mile from town. Dave thinks he knows the fellow you mentioned, but not well. Dave has a friend that lives right on the pond! SMALL SMALL WORLD!!! cindy

bigtreesinwa · April 29, 2008, 11:11:39 AM

Quote from: grassy on April 29, 2008, 10:07:35 AM
30 cords of firewood is alot of firewood.

Since you're asking opinions of forestry people, yes, 30 cords is a lot of firewood. Probably enough to last me 10 years for heating in my house.

But as far as the value of the timber, it's not worth as much as you'd like to think. The stumpage value is how much you pay for the timber while it's still on the stump prior to it being felled.

They sell firewood around my parts (don't know how much around your parts) for about $200 a cord, split, cut, and delivered. The forest services estimates the value of timber in the woods (again, around these parts) at about $10 per cord. So you may be looking at anywhere from $300 to $1000 in stumpage value for the firewood.

I'd appreciate input on what value people back east would place on this. I'm out west - far out west - so really can't speculate on the value. Back home for me in Montana firewood sold for $100 to $120 a cord, so the stumpage value was even less, perhaps $5 a cord.

grassy · April 29, 2008, 11:32:36 AM

They are GO absolutely Nuts about the environmental stuff in this state!!!. My god, dont go near a wetland and step on a a frog! I had a funny thought, maybe i ought to call the greenies??? for help . That would probably make the local news!!! Tee hee. ( i'm not a greeny)
I am a co-owner as a joint tenant. Which the theif did not know by the way. The wood harvest papers are posted right on the tree, all faded. Thats the law in this state. The papers have the theif listed as the agent, and my father listed as the owner. They are called Notification of intent to Harvest. Thats basically it! i got a copy of them from the town office. That is not a contract.
Then after a harvest is done, for tax reasons i guess. A form has to be filled out, and sent to the state of maine. That form asks specifics like was the wood sold, was it sent to a mill, was it given away. It asks the type of trees cut, lists all the types. Actually it is frightening looking goverment papers. Which apparently are supposed to be signed by the Agent or the landowner or both. No no no.... the theif ( the agent)fills out the papers himself, takes the papers up to the logger and has the logger sign them. NOT HIM???????See this guy is a slicky and covers his tracks well. so now i think the logger has signed the papers, put his signature on them, but not the theif signature. I have a dirty professional scum bag here. And it is alot to take on.
The only thing i ever heard was this. My father told me Bill (theif)was going to get alittle winter wood, and in return for plowing the snow if he died. Next thing i know 30 cords are being dropped. Now i think my nut father was had, but will never admit it. cindy

flip · April 29, 2008, 11:40:57 AM

I doubt it is so much about value of the wood pulled out as it is getting this sap sucker out of her and her father's life and prevent him from taking any more stuff that belongs to them. It is a crying shame anyone would have to be put in this situation in the first place. What I appreciate most is that she is fighting this idiot and not rolling over and playing dead. There are a lot of these heartless bozos out there and they need to be stopped or else this same senario will play out with someone else's family. Sad it is but good on her for fighting it.

SwampDonkey · April 29, 2008, 12:09:52 PM

My grandfather's cousin had a new neighbor that was cutting wood on land that he had hard access to and was trying to subdivide the frontage into building lots. In front was reservation land and down the road was a rock quarry and up the road was cousin's lot with a stream and a waterfalls on it. This new owner decided he was going to put a road in where he claimed an existing crown reserve existed and had a hand drawn map with his so called crown road drawn. There never was an designation because it had to cross reservation land and that would never be. That's federal jurisdiction not provincial and the reserve sure wouldn't grant access. So the guy went to dozing, had no water course alteration permits, a water fall below the proposed crossing and no right to be there. It cost cousin about $5000 in legal fees to fight off the intruder and the guy was never fined a dime for trespass or violating environmental law. The more i see this going on, the more I see the law protects to guilty more than the innocent. Because it has to be proven they are guilty with intent and that you have land title. :

grassy · April 29, 2008, 12:17:33 PM

YEA!!! I like you FLIP!!!! THANK YOU!!!!. I am fighting because its wrong. Because the fellow has moved on to another old guy already. Its not the stuff, altho it is so much stuff, it makes me sick. It was all things that I had no interest in.( mens toys).Yea!!! there are just times in life that a person has to stand up for whats right. Its alot of wood. Its ridiculous. We have a loyal family friend of 30 years, a nice guy. He is poor and no one gave him a tree!!! yet he was the fellow there when ever we needed a hand.
This guy owns 55 acres and has a 400,000 house listed on the internet. Now in maine that is a high price for a home. It is a very rural poor state. He is just a crook. simple as that. And a slicky too!! very slick. Thanks FLIP, WE THINK ALIKE!!!

grassy · April 29, 2008, 12:32:22 PM

SwampDon, I agree with you too. Your story was interesting too! It does seem the crooks almost get a license to do it. If I took it to a lawyer, your right, it would cost me more than its worth. Plus dragging a old dying man thru all that legal wrangle for this would almost be cruel. But it has to be stopped, whats next? the house, all the trees? I get bla bla bla from lawyers, etc. The police are helping a bit, but I asked them if I could have alittle muscle, and the policeman laughed. He said i cant really do that. Tee hee. I'm banking on he knows he is up to no good, and i'm trying to scare the living daylights out of him.
Forest ranger did say his badge tends to scare alot of people! only if your doing wrong! it would cost a fortune to prosecute him. Lawyer told me that. cindy

bigtreesinwa · April 29, 2008, 12:34:18 PM

Quote from: grassy on April 29, 2008, 12:17:33 PM
YEA!!! I like you FLIP!!!! THANK YOU!!!!. I am fighting because its wrong. Because the fellow has moved on to another old guy already. Its not the stuff, altho it is so much stuff, it makes me sick. It was all things that I had no interest in.( mens toys).Yea!!! there are just times in life that a person has to stand up for whats right. Its alot of wood. Its ridiculous. We have a loyal family friend of 30 years, a nice guy. He is poor and no one gave him a tree!!! yet he was the fellow there when ever we needed a hand.
This guy owns 55 acres and has a 400,000 house listed on the internet. Now in maine that is a high price for a home. It is a very rural poor state. He is just a crook. simple as that. And a slicky too!! very slick. Thanks FLIP, WE THINK ALIKE!!!

Grassy, like I said I feel badly for you as well and I support you in making things write. I just want to help you to find out what the real issue is and try to address the actual issue - you'll get a lot further that way.

Your issue appears to be about a person taking advantage of an elderly man and I think you've established a good case. 30 cord of wood is a huge amount of wood and that's not reasonable that a person would "give away" that much wood.

In my opinion, you have two issues: One is you have a person who is taking advantage of an elderly person, and two, you have a father that may no longer be of sound decision making.

Those are the issues in my opinion that you should focus on, and knowledge of timber won't help you with that. Like I said before, I support you with your issue but you need to talk with the police, an agency that represents elderly people, or an attorney to have this issues corrected.

Hammering nails in the downed wood, creating a big bonfire, or chaining it off is not solving the issue. In my opinoin, the best restitution would be to see the agent handplanting replacement seedlings on the property, two seedlings for every tree that was cut. That would be a beneficial restitution that have a positive impact on the land.

Good luck!

grassy · April 29, 2008, 01:10:27 PM

I know, but wouldnt I just love to do some nails!!LOL wouldnt that be fun?. Flip and I think alike. I had thought of like putting thousands of nails on the ground. But I wouldnt because then i would look neurotic!!! Then with my luck if we did save the wood, all the boys would hit the nails. Oh its fun to think of things like that tho. ;) i do have a can of bright yellow spray paint. I was thinking of all the ends of the logs bright yellow. Then if they disappear, I can identify my logs. Plus it would attract alot of attention
He went after the wood in our celler, I put signs all over that, took pics and spray painted the ends of that. That seemed to work. And then my snow plow guy, he pushed all the snow on top of the outside entrance. It was piled 12 feet high. I saved the celler wood and a nice wood furnace, that blows up the hot air. he was after that too. cindy

timberfaller390 · April 29, 2008, 01:23:35 PM

In Georgia the department of natural resources (game warden) would be who the proper law enforcement agent to handle this case is. They have more power than the state patrol and don't need warrents to be on your land and they are happy to patrol your land if you are having trouble with tresspassers or poachers. That might be something to check into in your state.

grassy · April 29, 2008, 01:41:18 PM

Really? I asked a game warden once. I said GO LOOK!!! He said call a forest ranger. Maybe he was just lazy? police say thats civil bla bla bla.
Oh that was another part of the story too. When the guy was flashing wood papers for my father to sign. He pulls this thumbtack out of his pocket..... and he's got this thumbtack all rusted and white with gold edges..... He says lookie Al (dad) they are poaching deer on your property. Thumbtacks I guess mark the animal trails? Glow in the dark ones. It was almost done like to divert the old mans attention. I got the thumbtack now. Bagged it. But who cares if someone was poaching!!! Just another slick tactic. Georgia is a beautiful state. I loved georgia and north carolina. I thought they were both gorgeous states. But probably too HOT for me. We folks that live in maine, I'm not kidding if it gets to 70 degrees, we cant take it.cindy

timberfaller390 · April 29, 2008, 01:52:33 PM

70 degrees is winter weather around here.haha. So you are saying there was no contract only intent to harvest papers? Does the logger know where you stand on this matter? If one logger knows the deal there's a good chance no one else will work for the "agent" either at least thats how we still operate here in the backwoods. If you make one of us mad we're all mad at you.haha.

grassy · April 29, 2008, 02:05:29 PM

Oh yea the logger knows whats going on now. He's ok. He wont do anymore dealings with him. My neighbor stopped and told him the whole story. Plus I told him. I dont think anyone around here will take that wood out in a truck(tree length) BUT I bet there is someone a few towns away, that might not know what is going on, and get smooth talked right into it. This guy is a very smooth talker. I wish there was a way to mass email loggers in the area. I thought of that too. So the chain might stop any third party hired to come in and haul the wood off. Then he would have to do the wood himself and leave his equipment up there in the woods by the side of the road? Right by the side of the road. Lots of people dont think to much of this guy now.

timberfaller390 · April 29, 2008, 02:10:57 PM

I bet this guy is to lazy to hand load a bunch of wood especially if he has too carry it very far, if he doesn't cut the chain I don't think I'd worry too much about the wood going any where.

Jeff · April 29, 2008, 02:14:12 PM

Ok, this discussion ends now. The spiking of trees that could kill someone has crossed the line of any kind of good or moral judgment and into the realm of stupidity. Grassy, you have vented enough. You have been given advice and continue to just spew. I and others have seen and read enough. Take the advice for what it is worth, after all it was free, and use it as you see fit. This discussion is over.

SwampDonkey · April 29, 2008, 04:35:10 PM

Wardens here have nothing to do with forestry on woodlots or provincial land, all they do is manage the fish population and that equates to any fish that goes to sea and returns to rivers and maybe migratory game birds. Even that license you pick up at the post office, since it's federal. We have some forest rangers that have the training to do enforcement when it comes to wildlife and crown land forests, they don't get involved in legal proceedings on private woodlots. A lot of rangers don't even have the authority to check for a trout or game license, they patrol woodlands operations on crown land to see that the companies meet compliance. They can report violations of the laws and such, but even I can do that. Only a few have the training to actually do an arrest. There are too few enforcement rangers let alone regular ones to patrol the province.

Posted before I seen the boss put the breaks on.