Food to fuel, just a sign of whats to come. Limits on purchasing food.

[johncinquo]

Saw this article this morning, and know its only the tip start of a lot of pain for people.   Talkek with my lil 4H buddies last weekend, they are all not doing pigs this year due to the feed prices.  They think they will be breaking even on the cows.  Shame to see the kids give up on a great summer project due to the costs. 

Those religious folks out west with the stockpiles are sounding smarter all the time. 


http://seekingalpha.com/article/73835-time-to-stock-up-on-rice?source=d_email

Yesterday on my way to home, I heard on radio that some Costco stores in the California's Bay area are setting limits on how much rice and flour a customer can purchase. According to Costco's CEO, the limits were put in place after what he saw as "unusual demands" for basic items. And Costco is not alone. Today, a story in USA Today says that Costco's rival, Sam's Club, is also limiting the amount of rice its customers can buy.

So what's the reason behind the action from warehouse clubs like Costco and Sam's Club, which serve both individual shoppers and small business owners? Apparently, it has something to do with the recent surge of rice price, as well as the prices of corn and wheat. Increased media coverage on food shortage in some countries (UN's World Food Program yesterday called the food crisis a "silent tsunami of hunger") also fueled concerns among consumers in this country about supplies of food staples, though there's no shortage here in the U.S.

Tonight, when I told my wife the stories I heard about Costco and Sam's Club, she said maybe we should get a couple of bags of rice this weekend, just in case. Since a 20-lb bag of rice, which typically costs between $8 and $15, can last nearly two months in our house, I am far from in the panic mode. However, with food prices on the rise, groceries are taking a bigger and bigger share in our monthly expenses, just like gasoline.

Are you concerned?

[Burlkraft]

I make a great sawdust souffle'   ;D  ;D  ;D

[Fla._Deadheader]

Has the UN passed out any Garden Seeds, yet ???  : : :

[tcsmpsi]

Locally, I heard from a long time friend that they were noticing shortages of some items on the shelves.

Notably disturbing to me, was his witness of the shortage of grits! 

The overall impact of the rise of fuel and groceries, basics, has yet to make its full awareness.

I had considered this coming, and worked toward its debut.  However, it has come faster and harder than I anticipated. 

In such times, my most treasured asset...adaptability.

[Fla._Deadheader]

Got MY sacks of Grits and Cornbread flour, safely home in Costa Rica.  8)
8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

[snowman]

Cost of food is through the roof but in the good ole USA, most people eat enough for two and it should be no big problem to keep your grocery bill down by simply eating less. Theres also opportunity to save money by preparing your own food instead of buying prepackaged junk. It may also encourage more people to garden again. All in all this may put people on a diet and make them eat healthier too. This could actualy be a blessing in disguise, in America anyway, we arn't exactly on the edge of starvation here. I'm only ranting on this subject because I'm kind of a health nut, if you don't count the cigars and whiskey! :D

[Dodgy Loner]

I don't see the price of food as a particularly big issue.  The average American spends only 9-14% of their income on food, depending on what study you believe.  When you think about how much  Americans spends on food at restaurants, gas stations, and vending machines, you can see that it would be pretty easy for many Americans to cut their food budget in half, if they would learn to cook at home.  I spend about 6% of my income on food, because I've only eaten at one restaurant in the last month.  The only problem I have with the price of food is that more of that money isn't going to the farmers who grow it.

[tcsmpsi]

Well, now, that is a little different for a family.  We still have two teenagers at the house.  Some folks have more.  Food costs are very noticeable. 

One of the diametric problems, is that as people draw back on their spending at restaurants, food purchases, etc., so will those industries suffer.  (yet, higher costs, less employment)

Food costs, by itself, though perhaps not a large percentage of the overall expenditure, combines with the rise in all other expenditures. 

We eat less, to pay for the electricity, which we use less of to pay for the water, which we use less of to pay for the house/maintenance that is primarily necessary, and we cut back on our fuel consumption to minimal necessity to get to the job which pays less percentage of our expenditures of necessity, etc., etc.

[Gary_C]

Back in the days of the collective farms in the Soviet Union, those big state run farms were so inefficient they could not feed their people. They found that much of the food for people came from the small private plots that people were allowed to cultivate.

So if people are worried and want to stock up on food, they should grow a big garden.  ;D ;D

Just think of how much that sweet corn they can easily grow will be worth.   ;D ;D   They may have to put a guard dog next to the garden to keep the coons (and their neighbors) away from it and people will have to learn how to get their hands dirty, but this is certainly a good year for large gardens.   ;D

Trouble is many families will have to learn how to actually cook food instead of just microwaving it.  : :

[tcsmpsi]

Another problem, Gary, is that most families haven't the space/opportunity to garden.  And, most families are induced into work/jobs that leave little time for gardening.

[johncinquo]

I was watching a travel/cooking show that went to Russia and found it interesting that their goverment encouraged using the land out in the countryside for "cottages" for all the city dwellers.  Get away for the weekend, relax, and grow a big garden.  I guess they put in roads and some utilities out into the boonies back in the 50's to encourage the use of the vast amounts of wilderness by the people.  Helps feed such a huge country, that lives primarily packed into cities. 

Somebody better tell Chet he is going to have neighbors soon!   :D

[Norm]

I use raised beds that take up very little room but can produce quite a bit of food if used properly. Even when I lived in a big city the small yard I had would have been able to grow our family of 4's food quite easily using this method. No we wouldn't have eaten sweet corn but most crops that store work quite well in these.

I just ran out of my stored garden veggies but it was laziness on my part for not using more of what I grew. I could have easily feed another family of 6 but found very little interest in my neighbors the excess veggies and fruit I offered to them. As for time spent doing gardening it takes only minutes a day on average to take care of a garden. Now I understand this is not everyone's cup of tea but with some careful shopping you can be pretty frugal buying groceries.

[crtreedude]

I was thinking that this was a serious thing until you all mentioned that there is a shortage of Grits - to me, that is a silver lining for sure!  :D

We don't have a problem here, we are getting closer and closer to raising our own food - and pigs love coconuts if we need to use them.

Besides, I like chicken a lot more than pork - and we have 18 head of cattle now - even I can't eat that much! We have ducks too - and geese, and I am thinking about turkeys as well.

I have my gardens - and now I have aguaponics (a mix of fish and hydroponics) which is producing lots of fresh cukes, tomatoes, basil, greens, lettuce, etc. And fish of course.

What, me worry?  ;D

[Radar67]

I have to agree with Norm on it not taking much space to produce a good garden. I have a book, "Square Foot Gardening", that explains how you can raise enough food for a family of 4 in a 10 foot by 10 foot area.

I'll be breaking my garden spot up tomorrow morning. It's been a while since I've had one of any size.

[crtreedude]

I have to agree with Norm on it not taking much space to produce a good garden. I have a book, "Square Foot Gardening", that explains how you can raise enough food for a family of 4 in a 10 foot by 10 foot area.

I'll be breaking my garden spot up tomorrow morning. It's been a while since I've had one of any size.

That is a good book on growing intensively - especially how to extend you season. We of course don't have that problem.

[tcsmpsi]

I'm personally not that concerned.  I'm an organic gardener and can grow most anything in a small plot with very little necessary care, once the foundation is set.

However, most people do not have these opportunities.  And, most, in the cities, do not have yards.

I mean, for myself and family, I always believe and intend to be the 'last man standing'.   ;D

[Fla._Deadheader]

Maybe it's time to start plowing under some of those "Manicured" lawns  : ???
  ;D ;D ;D ;D

[Gary_C]

Maybe it's time to start plowing under some of those "Manicured" lawns  : ???
  ;D ;D ;D ;D

Hey now, there is an opportunity.  Those people in the suburbs have companies to come in and fertilize their yards, then another company to cut the grass, and a gardner to trim the bushes. Now they need a company to raise a garden on their lawn so they can feed themselves.  ;D

Anyone up for a garden growing service?  8)

[Woodcarver]

My thought, too, FDH.  Time for the return of the cottage garden.  The increase in food prices certainly makes our garden more valuable.

There are people who don't have the opportunity, but if everyone who has the space and physical ability grew a vegetable garden the reduction in demand at the store would help to reduce prices for those who can't garden.

[Radar67]

I wouldn't say everyone does not have the opportunity, maybe not the desire. Opportunity is what you make it, look at all the people they have caught growing pot inside. What about all the roof top gardens you hear about in the cities? There are ways for everyone to grow some of their food, even if it is just in a flower pot.

Who is to say one person couldn't grow peas on their balcony while another grew tomatoes? Then they could swap out their overages with the neighbors.

[beenthere]

We can each decide how we will handle the change in the economy...can't be by dictating to others what they have to do.  Must be voluntary.    But leave it to Gov't and the libs that will think they need to step in and do it for them...or at least they will try.


FDH
Going to have to cut the trees off first.... ;D

[little Bark]

"Square Foot Gardening", that explains how you can raise enough food for a family of 4 in a 10 foot by 10 foot area.

My neighbor has 3  8'x8'  sq.'s.  I am always amazed at how much you can get from such a small area.  

Planting and growing a garden is the high light of my spring.  We plant a lot of things that would not do well in a box garden.
We actually expanded our garden this year thanks to relocating my wood pile.  We are redoing our strawberry patch this year.  So no strawberrys this year.  There is always next year.

[Larry]

Well, Kathy came from the farm store in a dither couple of days ago.  The price of ear corn to feed the squirrels has doubled in price over the last month.  Cutting back is not an option for her...she told me to start making more money.  Guess that was an easy solution for her.

Dad lives in a senior citizen complex where there is no garden space available.  It is amazing to see what those folks are raising in pots and tubs on there patios.  Guess where there is a will there is a way.

[tcsmpsi]

I would say that sums it up as well as can be, Larry.  Where there is a will, there's a way.

Uh huh...well I can certainly empathize and sympathize with your squirrel 'problem'.  Ours (the spoiled little darlin's that they've become) wouldn't eat corn if they had to go back to pine.   :D

Tractor Supply has this concoction of seeds, nuts and dried cherries (same as human "trail mix" basically) that the wife has got them quite pleased with.

Oh well, at least we can eat it too.   ;D

[OneWithWood]

The rationing at Costco and Sam's club has nothing to do with food shortages.  There is a more than adequate supply of rice in the US.  The rationing is a function of the perticular business model the two purchasing clubs operate under.  Very little money is made off the products sold.  The money is made by selling memberships.  It is not productive for the companies to churn money on a no margin product.
Real food shortages are occuring throughout the world and in the poorer communities in this country.  The rising fuel and food prices are having a devastating effect on those communities.

[Norm]

Uhh guys, squirrel's good eating too. Especially after you fatten them up. :D

[ohsoloco]

I saw quite a few people combing through the corn field by my place after the farmer picked it.  Never saw anyone out there doing that before.  One guy must've been out there for over an hour.  Lots of squirrels to feed I guess.

[Dodgy Loner]

Maybe it's time to start plowing under some of those "Manicured" lawns  : ???
  ;D ;D ;D ;D

I don't think you could consider my lawn to be "manicured", but I did take out 5 boxwoods in front of my house and plowed under a good bit of turf so I would have room for a garden.  The green beans and purple hull peas are already poking their heads up

[tcsmpsi]

Uhh guys, squirrel's good eating too. Especially after you fatten them up. :D

Now, Norm, you're talking to an old headsucker here when it comes to eating squirrels. 

I won't mention to Tina that you have even remotely mentioned anything about possibly eating her squirrels.  Geeeezz....I got a chill up my left side just writing that.   

[Radar67]

That brings back memories tcsmpsi. I took my Grandma a mess of squirrels one weekend and she sent them back home with me. Told me not to bring her anymore unless the heads were still attached. 

[DouginUtah]

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/01/opinion/01hedin.html?_r=3&ex=1362114000&en=3d2c87b956499ea3&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss&pagewanted=all&oref=slogin&oref=slogin&oref=slogin

[Primarily of interest to farmers]

Jack Hedin is a farmer in Rushford, Minn.

If you've stood in line at a farmers' market recently, you know that the local food movement is thriving, to the point that small farmers are having a tough time keeping up with the demand.

But consumers who would like to be able to buy local fruits and vegetables not just at farmers' markets, but also in the produce aisle of their supermarket, will be dismayed to learn that the federal government works deliberately and forcefully to prevent the local food movement from expanding. And the barriers that the United States Department of Agriculture has put in place will be extended when the farm bill that House and Senate negotiators are working on now goes into effect.

As a small organic vegetable producer in southern Minnesota, I know this because my efforts to expand production to meet regional demand have been severely hampered by the Agriculture Department's commodity farm program. As I've looked into the politics behind those restrictions, I've come to understand that this is precisely the outcome that the program's backers in California and Florida have in mind: they want to snuff out the local competition before it even gets started.

Last year, knowing that my own 100 acres wouldn't be enough to meet demand, I rented 25 acres on two nearby corn farms. I plowed under the alfalfa hay that was established there, and planted watermelons, tomatoes and vegetables for natural-food stores and a community-supported agriculture program.

All went well until early July. That's when the two landowners discovered that there was a problem with the local office of the Farm Service Administration, the Agriculture Department branch that runs the commodity farm program, and it was going to be expensive to fix.

The commodity farm program effectively forbids farmers who usually grow corn or the other four federally subsidized commodity crops (soybeans, rice, wheat and cotton) from trying fruit and vegetables. Because my watermelons and tomatoes had been planted on "corn base" acres, the Farm Service said, my landlords were out of compliance with the commodity program.

I've discovered that typically, a farmer who grows the forbidden fruits and vegetables on corn acreage not only has to give up his subsidy for the year on that acreage, he is also penalized the market value of the illicit crop, and runs the risk that those acres will be permanently ineligible for any subsidies in the future. (The penalties apply only to fruits and vegetables — if the farmer decides to grow another commodity crop, or even nothing at all, there's no problem.)

In my case, that meant I paid my landlords $8,771 — for one season alone! And this was in a year when the high price of grain meant that only one of the government's three crop-support programs was in effect; the total bill might be much worse in the future.

In addition, the bureaucratic entanglements that these two farmers faced at the Farm Service office were substantial. The federal farm program is making it next to impossible for farmers to rent land to me to grow fresh organic vegetables.
Why? Because national fruit and vegetable growers based in California, Florida and Texas fear competition from regional producers like myself. Through their control of Congressional delegations from those states, they have been able to virtually monopolize the country's fresh produce markets.

That's unfortunate, because small producers will have to expand on a significant scale across the nation if local foods are to continue to enter the mainstream as the public demands. My problems are just the tip of the iceberg.

Last year, Midwestern lawmakers proposed an amendment to the farm bill that would provide some farmers, though only those who supply processors, with some relief from the penalties that I've faced — for example, a soybean farmer who wanted to grow tomatoes would give up his usual subsidy on those acres but suffer none of the other penalties. However, the Congressional delegations from the big produce states made the death of what is known as Farm Flex their highest farm bill priority, and so it appears to be going nowhere, except perhaps as a tiny pilot program.

Who pays the price for this senselessness? Certainly I do, as a Midwestern vegetable farmer. But anyone trying to do what I do on, say, wheat acreage in the Dakotas, or rice acreage in Arkansas would face the same penalties. Local and regional fruit and vegetable production will languish anywhere that the commodity program has influence.

Ultimately of course, it is the consumer who will pay the greatest price for this — whether it is in the form of higher prices I will have to charge to absorb the government's fines, or in the form of less access to the kind of fresh, local produce that the country is crying out for.

Farmers need the choice of what to plant on their farms, and consumers need more farms like mine producing high-quality fresh fruits and vegetables to meet increasing demand from local markets — without the federal government actively discouraging them.

[tcsmpsi]

That brings back memories tcsmpsi. I took my Grandma a mess of squirrels one weekend and she sent them back home with me. Told me not to bring her anymore unless the heads were still attached. 

When I was a freshman in high school, freshman day required us males to dress as females.  We were slaves to the upper classmen who required us to do all sorts of....humiliating antics. Some, even physically damaging.  The highlight of the day was when we were auctioned off with our large, prepared lunches to highest bidders.

At the time, I lived by myself and my resources/abilities designated my eating fare as rather simple.  My...retribution...culminated when my buyer, a town boy, hungry as he was, was not quite ready for my large fare of biscuits and whole roasted squirrels (yes, heads and all).   :D

[treenail]

Last night I was watching a news article about ethanol production and rising food costs. Said that if we backed off producing ethanol for fuel blending, that we make enough of it now that our gasoline costs could rise between 15-20%. Kind of a viscious cycle of sorts. Higher fuel costs=higher food prices. I can't blame the farmers for wanting a piece of the action though, as they aren't to blame for out of sight crude oil speculation. The answer is for our collective governments to get on the stick and fund the reseach necessary and provide development capital to create major alternatives to our fuel uses. We need to treat it like putting a man on the moon. It was done.

Back in the late seventies when we were hit with bad inflation under similar circumstances with proportionally  high oil prices, I decided to become as self sufficient as possible. It's nice to know that if things get really bad, that I can survive a bit longer than most. Over the years since, I've backed off a bit during the good times, but the knowledge is still there. The times that rolled through  then were kind of scarey, but my gut feeling is that we are headed for what will seem worse.

[WDH]

I won't mention to Tina that you have even remotely mentioned anything about possibly eating her squirrels.  Geeeezz....I got a chill up my left side just writing that.   

Tcsmpsi,

Your little yaupons and Tina's squirrels have tender sensibilities, so take care that they do not inadvertantly read this post .

[zopi]

got better than 1/8 acre worked up..taters and maters, squash and beans, corn, pumpkins, etc...

With the economy acting weak, fuel/production costs up, it might not be a bad idea to have some staples laid in...dead sure not a bad idea to grow your own...I fully expect to harvest about 35 bushels of tomatoes this year, most of which will go into sauce..we eat LOTS of pasta..

[WDH]

I didn't think that you liked 'maters........ ???.

[zopi]

I hate RAW 'maters...ma forced me to eat 'em when I was a kid...she regrets that to this day.

I'm quite fond of a pomodoro with homemade italian sausage tho'...

heh..wifey bought me an 80 qt dehydrator for christmas...the second thing i did was raid her tomato
stash for 'sundried' 'maters..

the first of course was jerky...

[Handy Andy]

  I tilled up a garden for my daughter, and one for us as well.  Our frost free date isn't till May 1, so we have a bunch of plants in the window.  Doug's story is another good reason to do away with the farm program. As to the shortage of food this year, has everybody forgot the late freeze that came last year?  Our wheat in my area was about 1/4  of a normal crop.  And it was a very widespread freeze.  The guys in western Kansas finally got a crop, but most of the rest didn't get much.  That is the reason for high prices, not ethanol.  Jim

[StorminN]

I think you guys are being optimistic. There are tons of city folks that have never seen a tomato plant, never mind know how to grow one. Remember, there are some people that will not touch dirt without gloves on!

I feel VERY LUCKY to live where I do, (but is it really luck? I had to fight to move my company out here) my girlfriend works on a 450 acre organic farm, so there is never any shortage of fresh veggies. In the past two years, they started raising pigs and chickens... first laying chickens, now meat chickens too. They are trying very hard to keep everything local and keep it all as sustainable as possible. I'm a firm believer that the less food has to travel, the better... fresher food and less diesel used.

I too did notice the sign at Costco yesterday... five bags of rice per member. I thought things like this would be coming down the pike, but I never thought they would be coming so quickly!

-Norm.

[Fla._Deadheader]

Down here, they grow dryland rice. Areas are soggy from lots of rain, but, never flooded, like rice paddys.

[zopi]

Remember, there are some people that will not touch dirt without gloves on!



-Norm.

and some people don't like steak.....stupid people were put here to make me feel better about myself..lol

[tcsmpsi]

I won't mention to Tina that you have even remotely mentioned anything about possibly eating her squirrels.  Geeeezz....I got a chill up my left side just writing that.   

Tcsmpsi,

Your little yaupons and Tina's squirrels have tender sensibilities, so take care that they do not inadvertantly read this post .

I'm convinced they won't be around the computer anytime soon, so I believe I can safely say...yes...those are the biggest, fattest cat squirrels I've ever seen.   I'm sure Tina and the yaupons see them completely different than I do, from time to time.   :D

[Norm]

TC tell Tina I think as much of squirrels as she does and not just for a food source. I used to hunt the little guys until I discovered they were replanting walnut trees for me and doing a much better job of it than I ever could. The best part is they work for just a small share of the fallen walnuts and a downed ear of corn or two.

I went grocery shopping after my first post on this thread yesterday. They had arm roast for $2.49 lb, and a special on chicken hindquarters for $5.90 for 10lbs. A sack of potatoes was $1.49 for 10lbs. Bread was high but the price for flour wasn't as bad as I expected. I bought enough food to feed me and Patty for a week for $80 with a couple of snacks thrown in. If I'd been really trying I could have made it come in under $60. The lady in front of me had prepared frozen meals, pop, chips, and other things like such. None of the chicken or potatoes or fresh veggies. She used her debit card that was pre-paid by the so called farm program. Can't have the stigma of food stamps you know.

As far as some folks not wanting to get their hands dirty I have no problem with that. Of course when time comes to survive they will be the first to go. Oh and I want to know why the price of corn has given us shortages of rice.

[DanG]

I'm not so sure there is a shortage of rice, or corn either for that matter.  Yesterday's news was, the rice rationing was due to some Wall Street speculators bought up some rice to hoard in case of a future shortage.  This morning's news said it was due to a drought in Australia.  What are we to believe?

I spotted one little discrepancy in the otherwise excellent essay that Doug posted.  How was that guy going to grow "organic" veggies on ordinary cropland?   That didn't ruin the entire story for me, but it did cause my BS detector to quiver a little bit.

I've been thinking lately that the US Government needs to establish a Department of Truth to help the poor, ignorant consumer understand exactly where the money is going.  We all know the farmer isn't getting his fair share, but all the people in the chain claim that they aren't making money, too.  Now, somebody is being less than truthful with us, when the tomato farmer, who takes all the risk and does all the work, only get's a nickel a pound for a product that retails for $1.99/lb.

I caught one of our local grocers red-handed last week.  I asked him what in the world was going on with a certain locally produced sausage, as it was suddenly selling for $4.99 per pound.  He seemed shocked, and exclaimed that it seemed ridiculous, since Boston Butts were going for 87 cents, retail.  We had a chuckle about it as I passed up the sausage and picked up a ham for $1.29/lb.  He said he didn't know who was making the big profit, but it sure wasn't him!  Well, a few days later, I was in the local meat market, a small local store with much less buying power than that chain store, and there was the same exact sausage for $3.29/lb.  It wasn't on sale, either.  Now, maybe that store manager didn't know that his company was gouging the consumer, but that is what is happening.

Bottom line is, there is no shortage of food in this Country.  We are being ripped off by greedy middlemen at every turn.  There would be no need for farm subsidies if the farmer was getting his fair share of the profits.  We are fast approaching another feudal age where everybody is either a Baron or a Serf.  We need to get a grip on our freedom if we want to keep it!

[LeeB]

I've been thinking lately that the US Government needs to establish a Department of Truth to help the poor, ignorant consumer understand exactly where the money is going. 

Most of the US government wouldn't know the truth if it bit on the a**.  :D :D :D

[Ironwood]

Government Dept. of Truth, Kinda reminds me of a family outing to DC a few years back. Over near the Smithsonian's Renwick Gallery there is "Office of Thrift Supervision". No kidding, it is really there on the sign out front of a BIG building. We rolled and had lots of fun jokes about my wifey and her sister's thriftiness. I guess that was the response to chase down the purchase orders on things like $350 toilet seats :, yet another buracracy.

       Ironwood

[Don_Papenburg]

DanG  ,   there is a provision in the last farm bill to fine a producer that raises veggies or fruits on land without a previous history of veggies or fruit.  The farm bill was /is called Fredom to Farm .  So basicly you could farm anyway you want as long as it is the same as you always farmed.

[zopi]

our government sucks.

If I am going to watch Rome burn, I am bringing marshmallows. If nothing else I can light them on fire and throw them onto the backs of fleeing bureaucrats...

[DanG]

DanG  ,   there is a provision in the last farm bill to fine a producer that raises veggies or fruits on land without a previous history of veggies or fruit. 

Don, I'm not too well versed in the various farm programs, but I think that was just for farmers who had accepted price supports for certain crops.  They had committed to grow those particular crops in order to recieve subsidies.  I think you can plant anything you wish, if you are not in a government program, with the only penalty being in the marketplace.

[DouginUtah]

Yep. Just one small step at a time until they have total control.


And who writes these laws?

That would be Congressmen.

And who tells the Congressmen what to write?

That would be the lobbyists.

And who pays the lobbyists?

That would be....they.

[Gary_C]

Everybody just loves to hate the farm bill, including the farmers.  And now I just heard they have just reached tentative agreement on a new one.  :

But there are a few things you should keep in mind while you join the crowd in hating the new one. First, I remember one year they were writing a new farm bill and one of the long time congresmen who had a major part in writing that bill put up a bar chart that represented the federal budget for the year. He then pointed out that the entire USDA budget was the width of one of the lines between the bars on the chart. And he said "heck (not an exact quote) they lose more than that over their lunch hour over at HUD."  ;D

Another thing is something I heard some years ago from a man who had been asked by two presidents to be Sect. of Agriculture and turned both offers down. He responded to a question by reciting from memory all the past farm bills, what they consisted of, and how they failed. His point was the farm bill covered so many diverse areas and had to satisfy so many interests, that it was never the best thing to do, nor the right thing to do. It was simply the only thing that could be written that could satisfy enough of those diverse interests to get passed.

So I am getting prepared to hate this new one too, just like most of you, but I probably will not fully realize what I hate about it for a few years after I see what is going to fail in this one.  ;D ;D

[Don_Papenburg]

DanG , I only know what is absolutely needed to get by .  The farm bill is like a HMO agrement lots of bs  little substance.   But yes you have to be in the program .   I never had to worry about the fines till this year I want to plant a small plot to veggies  .  Hoping that it will pay my everincreasing realestate tax burden.   I might just plow up some of my grass  to save my ....  from the fines. 

[DanG]

Don, I'd like it very much if you could explain your own situtation a bit for us.  I'd much rather hear of the actual experience of someone we know and trust, rather than some essay that was just copied off the web.  I'd certainly like to see you make a nice profit for your effort and investment, and I'd also like to learn a little something from it if you'd be willing to share some info.

I'm a Farm Bureau member, and I get their monthly magazine, "Florida Agriculture."  In it every month is a column about the various farm bills that are going through congress, or are about to expire, etc.  I find the information there fascinating, though I'm not a farmer.  I am a voter, though, and I don't see how anyone can be serious about thier vote without some knowledge of what is happening around us.  I think this sort of information should be in every magazine and newspaper sold.  Agriculture is so important to all of us, I don't understand why so many tend to ignore it.  It is even more important to the city dweller than it is to me, since I could grow most of my own food if I had to.  For someone living in an apartment, the professional farmer it the ONLY one keeping him/her alive!

One factor that most people don't seem to understand about farm programs, is the actual purpose for them in the first place.  Some of them, probably most, are there to ensure a steady flow of all commodities, so that prices will remain stable.  I know it is hard to go in the grocery store right now and believe that it is working, but food is cheaper here than anyplace else in the world.  And because of these programs, you can get most anything you want at any time of the year.  One example of  a farm program that worked was the now defunct Peanut Price Support program.  It simply guaranteed the farmer a certain price for a certain portion of his crop.  He would have an allotment of so many pounds of goobers, and the Govt would make up the difference to him if his crop didn't bring the minimum price.  He could grow as much as he wanted to, but the program was only for his allotted tonnage.  It was an incentive for farmers to keep up production of this important crop.  If a farmer didn't plant peanuts at least one year out of three, he would lose his allotment.  The peanut industry thrived and the program was no longer needed, so it went away.

Other programs, such as the CRP, are intended to help ensure that there will always be sufficient agricultural land available to meet our needs.  Most of the general public scoffs at these programs, and laughs about farmers being paid to not grow things, but that is because they are ignorant of the real purpose of this practice.  If a landowner had to pay regular tax millage on large acreage, and had no income from it, he would be forced to sell it off to the developers, and we would have no farmland in reserve for our future needs.

People also wringing their hands over corn these days, thinking all the cows will starve to death if we use it all for making alcohol.  How ignorant is that!?  Cows don't even need corn at all.  In fact, we'd all be better off if no beef cow ever ate another kernel of the stuff!  Beef is better, and better for you if the cow just eat's its natural food, grass.  The big producers, Armour, Swift, etc., have convinced the public that their beef should have a big ring of useless fat on it, so they can sell you a bunch of 3 cent/lb fat for $14.99 per pound.

Well, DanG.  Here I started out asking Papenburg a simple question and ended up blabbering on like some kind of old fart.  How 'bout it Don?

[stonebroke]

The vegetable clause was put in because the vegetable growers( rightly I think ) were afraid that some grain prroducers would convert large acreages of land to vegetables while still receiving money from the government. This would put the vegetable growers at a disadvantage. Thank you for being a Farm Bureau Member. We need all the members we can get.

Stonebroke

[LeeB]

I be's a member too. Don't know nothing about farming, but I got 140acres of trees. Huh, don't know nothing about that niether.  :D

[Patty]

The Farm Bill

LINK TO STORY

Here is the recent version of the 2008 Farm Bill. I don't think most folks are aware that such a small portion goes to the farmers, and the majority goes to welfare recipients in food stamps and school lunch programs.

[Sawyerfortyish]

You should live in the garden state. Our governor just eliminated the dept of agriculture in N.J. the DEP is taking it over. What a mess thats gonna be. Along with closing a lot of the parks he's become very popular :

[Don_Papenburg]

Dang , You have the farm program down quite well .  I was just surprised that when they came out with the "Freedom to Farm " farm bill , That I did not have the fredom to farm as I saw fit .  I also think that it was to protect veggie growers . I don't think that they have any programs to help if they have a bad crop.  There is some provitions for fruit growers on intermitent basis ,if I recall proper.     I have a small grain farm in the midwest .  I was interested in growing veggies that I could sell to small Mom & Pop stores in the area.  My idea was to sell to them at a low enough price that they could compete with the chains.  But I would still make a lot more than growing comodity grains. The other reason to sell to M&P stores was then I would not have to run a farm stand or hit the farmers markets to sell produce . I really do not want to be in the retail buisness again.
So anyway I was surprised that I could not grow veggies on my program ground.  After all it was called the freedom to farm bill. 
I have only a small amount of land that I can vegg .  A lot of my good land went into the streambank filter strip CRP program .  I went with the 15 year provision.   Basicly the gov. rents the land from me and I plant it with the grasses that htey want and I take care of it for them .  Reseed bad spots and keep weeds out are my major tasks.
  This year I put in the last of the CP33 .  That is a field border that they call the quail program.  But the grasses and forbs that we were told to plant are to attract pheasants.   I questioned them on that . I asked if it would not have been better to encorage the prairie chichen to make a comeback and try to eliminate the pheasant.
I think that there is only one county in Illinois that has prairie chickens now .  The pheasants lay eggs in the PC nest and then they hatch a week or so earlier than PC eggs . The hen thinks it was her eggs and goes about raising pheasants.  The pheasants also are hard on quail coveys ,they tend to drive them out of the area.
Did I answer your ? or just ramble on? 

[OneWithWood]

The Farm Bill would be more correctly titled 'The Subsidy Bill'.  All the programs in the bill I think would then be viewed appropriately.  Be it a subsidy for crops or a subsidy for urban living.  I would like to see the bill broken up into components so the support for the vairous components could be guaged accurately and congress held accountable for the earmarks that make it through under the radar while important programs are held hostage.  I agree the farmers take a disproportionate share of the heat for all the bloated programs just because of all the stuff that was piled on to the original idea.

[tcsmpsi]

What I would like to see/hear, is the People telling the government to Stand Down.

The only thing the government knows how to grow is debt.  No nutrutious or fuel value in that.

Unfortunately, there are too many who actually believe the government knows more about farming and every other industry, and actually need them telling when, what, how and to whom.

It is no wonder there is a problem in buying day to day necessities to live, when over half the money goes to government to intrude.

[DanG]

Did I answer your ? or just ramble on? 

That was a great answer, Don....very informative.  Like most good answers, it brings some more questions to mind.  Unfortunately, I'm having computer problems and have very little time on here right now.  As soon as I can, I'd like to ask a few follow-up questions.

[DanG]

I don't see the Government Farm Programs as an intrusion on anyone's rights.  The Gov't offered money in exchange for a guarantee that certain crops would be in dependable supply, or that certain land would be set aside for specific purposes.  The recipients of this money didn't have to enter into the agreements, in most cases.  I'm not familiar enough with the programs to know how much flexibility is built into the agreements.  I think it would be wise for there to be a system by which a farmer could modify his commitment so that he could do things like Don wants to do.  Now, Don apparently accepted some sort of compensation in return for his commitment to grow grain on his land, so it isn't wrong that he should give something in return for an easing of that commitment.  I think there should be a way for him to modify his contract in a more graceful manner than simply reneging on it and paying the fine.  If the plan was being fairly administered, he would be able to negotiate a settlement, perhaps gaining a release on part of it by extending the length of commitment on the other part.  Of course, that would require some thinking on the part of Congress that may be a bit deeper than they are accustomed to.

The other day, I caught a snippet on the News about the current debate on scaling back the ethanol program.  Some Senator was waving a loaf of bread over his head, claiming that the price of it had gone up to $4 because the price of grain had doubled.  Well, doing a bit of quick math in my head made my BS detector scream in agony!  Now I don't know how accurate this figure is, but I've heard that the value of the wheat in a loaf of bread is about four or five cents in the farmer's combine hopper.  If that is true, and the value of that wheat doubled to ten cents, how in the cat hair(thanx Charlie) does that translate to a $1.50 increase in the price of the bread?  The only thing I can think of that might explain it is that the thieves in the marketplace are pulling the wool over the people's eyes.  They are using a nickel's worth of additional overhead to justify a $1.45 obscene profit for themselves!  I am a lifelong proponent of the Free Enterprise system, and have always had an appreciation for the important role that large companies play in keeping us safe, well-fed and free.  That has not changed.  I also have a healthy disdain for Government regulation of business. I certainly don't want to see Gov't price controls!  Lately, I've about concluded that we need a "Truth in Business" law that would force companies to fully disclose the distribution of their costs and profits.  I'm not talking about the Corporate level of financial disclosure, but a cost breakdown printed on the package of every product sold.  The label on that loaf of bread the Senator was waving would have a cost breakdown that would reveal to the consumer exactly who was making the money out of it.  If that were the case, the Gov't could shut down all the regulatory programs except for those regarding National Security and Public Safety, and the American people could regulate the economy for themselves.  I have a feeling we would do a pretty good job of it, given truthful information to go on.  Such a proposal would never pass the Congress though, because it would remove all doubt as to what a bunch of stinkers they really are!

[Larry]

Missouri was the third state to mandate that ethanol-blended fuel be sold at all gas stations.  And here are some of the folks reaping the profits.

Farmer Lawmakers Reap Money From Missouri Tax Credits

It's fine for farmers to receive tax credits for investing in ethanol plants...but farmer/legislators?

I'm not a big fan of producing ethanol...at least from corn for other reasons, but it looks to me right now the consumer is paying in more ways than one.