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Chainsaw Milling - I know but bear with me . . . .

Started by TexasTimbers, April 23, 2008, 10:52:23 AM

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TexasTimbers

Plenty of threads on this I know. I am guilty of this as much as anyone and that is - not asking the right question/s. Many of us in search of a solution to a specific challenge will not consider our questions carefully enough and so we don't get the answers we seek.

Example: "What kind of chain do you guys use for chainsaw milling."

Terrible question. Most everyone, myself included, we want to help the poster and so we offer our answers based on our experience. So then the OP decides which answer sounds best and goes that route. Kind of like most people pick a politician to vote for. They don't look at his voting record they look at his hair and how he is able to speak and "perform". It's my belief - stand to be corrected - that most chainsaw millers have settled in on the chain they use without having tried the many, or even any, of the other combinations possible.

I have talked to 3 or 4 different Bailey's sales guys all of whom claim to have had ample milling experience and brother you can believe I always ask. I have read plethora articles on the issue. I have read where some guys swear that ripping chain is a rip off and to just use crosscut chain and don't worry about the rough surface if you want speed. Which is what I want. I've read that ripping chain is slower but just designed to give a smoother surface.

Here is a bullet list of stuff (can't call them facts because I have only used one type of chain thus far) swimming around in my head:


  • Crosscut chain is faster for ripping and should be full skip
  • Crosscut chain is faster for ripping and should be full comp
  • Using crosscut chain for ripping will tear apart your saw
  • Using crosscut chain is easier on your saw
  • When using crosscut chain rakers should be kept at the factory .025
  • When using crosscut chain rakers should be filed down well below the factory .025
  • When using crosscut chain full chisel is the best choice.
  • When using crosscut chain semi-chisel is the best choice
  • When using crosscut chain micro bevel is the best choice

  • Ripping chain will cut faster and better and smoother if you grind the top plate angle on every other cutter to 10° and the other to 0° because one will cut and the other will clean
  • Full skip is the best type ripping chain
  • Semi-skip is the best type ripping chain
  • Full comp is the best type ripping chain

I sure as heck don't except (or want) anyone to attempt to answer/elucidate/rebuff/concur with all of these facts/myths/opinions - just wanted to let you know where I am at. Confusionville.

So what I am asking for with what I think is a better question than I have asked before regarding chainsaw milling is this:

If you have chainsaw milling experience and have used at least 2  (preferably more) different types of chain whether it be two+ types of ripping, two+ types of crosscut, at least one type of each, various top plate angles, skip, semi etc. . . . could you please share your thoughts on why you are using the type of chain you are? If you use more than one type depending on the situation, why?

I am not asking for feedback on one type of chain IOW I could not reply to this thread because I have only used 0° full skip ripping chain and so cannot make any comparisons at all.

I realize I am asking alot here. I don't expect many replies but if I get even one or two from some seasoned millers it would put me way ahead of where I am now.







The oil is all in Texas, but the dipsticks are in D.C.

dancan

I agree with TexasTimbers , there seems to be alot of different was to get the job done from many different sources so i too would be happy to hear about results from the real would

rebocardo

I have tried making my own ripping chain from full comp and skip, 0/10 or 0/10/10/0, taking the rakers down to .030 and then .040 (that totally rotted), etc. etc. I tried a lot of different things.

The absolute worse was trying cross cut full comp to make lumber, vibrated badly, heated up a lot.

In the end, the best thing for me was the low profile full comp ripping chain Bailey's sells with the ten degree top plate.

SwingOak

I just bought the 24" Alaskan mill from Bailey's, along with their Woodsman pro ripping chain. My understanding is that ripping chain will result in a smoother cut at the expense of cutting speed.

However, this isn't really based on personal experience (yet). Although my brother has a 100" Sperber mill I don't know how he sharpened his chains or what type he was running. I just ran the second saw on the far side of the slab... I think he was using a full skip chain at 10 degrees.

oldsaw

In my experience:

Crosscut chain is rough, but initially faster, however it dulls quicker.

Semi-Chisel is best, chisel works okay but seems to dull quicker.

Skip chain if you don't have the power to do full comp.  I've run full comp on 35" of red oak with an 066.  Skip works better in that example, but full comp was okay, just had to be careful feeding it.

I usually take the rakers down to .30.

I have used quite a bit of Bailey's ripping chain and have been happy with it.  I have also modified crosscut chain with a 7-10 degree top angle with good results.

Mark

So many trees, so little money, even less time.

Stihl 066, Husky 262, Husky 350 (warmed over), Homelite Super XL, Homelite 150A

leweee

Kevin.....when I started milling in the 80's I used Granberg chain.....smooth but slow.
After reading Wil Malloff 's book" Chainsaw Lumbermaking" I started making my own. ;D
Start with square chisel full comp if you have the power to pull it.
Use a chain grinder for the following
0° top plate
55° hook angle
.030 for rakers
I have used this chain on  Alaskan mills  & freehand for Quartering logs.
Sorry have never tried Bailey's ripping chain. ::)
just another beaver with a chainsaw &  it's never so bad that it couldn't get worse.

TexasTimbers

Thanks guys.

Lewee, I have Mr. Maloff's book and have his site bookmarked for a while. I was leaning toward his method next thanks for the nudge. ;D
The oil is all in Texas, but the dipsticks are in D.C.

TexasTimbers

leweee (got all your "e's" in this time). In the Chain Modification chapter on page 26 he says to use a 50° hook angle. Is it that you tried 50 and like 55 better? Not trying to split hairs but I know small adjustments can make big differences.

He also grinds his depth guages to 0.045 - because his rule is to set them between .005 and .010 more  than what the recommended depth is for the crosscut chain being modified. But he uses an 090 which of course will eat faster than my 395.

Quote from: leweee on April 25, 2008, 12:28:52 PM
Start with square chisel full comp if you have the power to pull it.

So you think I should stick with .030 because of less power with the 395 or because you like the performance, or surface, or both, better with .030?

That's the last barrage of questions before I dive in promise. ;)
The oil is all in Texas, but the dipsticks are in D.C.

Ironwood

There is no scarcity of opportunity to make a living at what you love to do, there is only scarcity of resolve to make it happen.- Wayne Dyer

chaikwa

Well, I guess I can jump in here too with a few questions of my own!

I built my chainsaw mill 10 years ago. It looks like a band mill in that there is a saw carriage that holds the chainsaw horizontally and rides on a 20 foot track.

All I've ever used is 'regular' 3/8" chainsaw chain that I file to a 0 degree angle and take the rakers down by 3 to 5 thousandths. Right now I run a 34" bar on a 3120 Husky. It is S L O W but I figured that was the price I was paying for being too cheap to buy or build a band mill!

When you guys say "cross cut chain" I assume you are referring to regular, plain 'ol chainsaw chain like I'm using before I file it to 0 degrees, correct?

I'm looking to get some speed outta this thing. It gets real old, real quick when it takes upwards of 5 minutes to make one cut in a log that's 10 feet long! I've been thinking of trying some manufactured ripping chain such as the Bailey's stuff, but have no idea what to try. They don't give that stuff away! What is this 'Granberg' chain I keep hearing about?

Bear with me, my questions will get more smarter as I get more learned!

chaikwa.

leweee

Kevin.....those chain specs. I gave earlier are for Hardwoods. Wil was cutting mostly Softwood. :)


Quotewhen you guys say "cross cut chain" I assume you are referring to regular, plain 'ol chainsaw chain like I'm using before I file it to 0 degrees, correct?
chaikwa....that's correct.
Like I said Granberg chain gave a smoother finish but cut slower.

Granberg Ripping Chain
just another beaver with a chainsaw &  it's never so bad that it couldn't get worse.

chaikwa

Quote from: leweee on April 26, 2008, 04:07:41 PM
chaikwa....that's correct.
Like I said Granberg chain gave a smoother finish but cut slower.
Right, but what IS it? Is it just a trade name or brand name for ripping chain or is there something special about it?

Also, I haven't heard any opinions about full or semi-skip chain yet.

chaikwa.

leweee

Click on the LINK in my previous post. ;D I'm a SLLLLoooowwww typer. :D

semi or full-skip are always a compromise if you don't have the power to pull full-comp.......and are slower. ::)
just another beaver with a chainsaw &  it's never so bad that it couldn't get worse.

chaikwa

Quote from: leweee on April 26, 2008, 05:10:25 PMsemi or full-skip are always a compromise if you don't have the power to pull full-comp.......and are slower. ::)
Ahh, I see. Thanks!

chaikwa.

TexasTimbers

Quote from: leweee on April 26, 2008, 04:07:41 PM
Kevin.....those chain specs. I gave earlier are for Hardwoods. Wil was cutting mostly Softwood. :)

Man so many details!  :D  I must be missin the page that contained that little sentence.  ::)

I reckon I am going to modify both some full comp crosscut chain and the full skip ripping chain since I have plenty of both. That way I should find out which one the 395 likes the most.

Raining right now so it will be a while but I'll report back when I get anything worth tellin. Thanks for the info it saves alot of trial and error.   :P
The oil is all in Texas, but the dipsticks are in D.C.

Al_Smith

 You can cut faster with just good old chisel chain than refiled milling chain .It isn't as smooth but it's still a lot smoother than a circle mill .

If you can get your bar at about 30 to 45 degrees with the log,just before it starts pulling big old french frys it will go a lot faster than directly  across grain .

TexasTimbers

I 'm just gooung to assume you've tried both at least once. From my limited experience it seems that it wouldn't matter what kind of chain you regrind. It's the profiles you put on it that matter. Ripping chain can be reground to become crosscut and vice versa.

What angles are you saying cut faster? What do you prefer for milling hardwood . . Top=? Rakers=? Hook=? And I think I have learned that full, semi, or skip really depends on your available power and something you just find out on your own so I won't ask that but throw your favorite numbers at me if you don't mind and what saw you're using and if it is stock or modified etc.

Trying to build a thread here with pretty good imperical data for us all to benefit.


The oil is all in Texas, but the dipsticks are in D.C.

gibby

this info is what i have been using for my procut, cutting hardwoods, red white and black oak

http://www.sawmillchainsaws.com/sawchains.htm



here is a slab of red oak made into an etable


TexasTimbers

Gettin better all the time. Glad you chimed in gibby I'm still gonna take you up on that offer in case you wondered if I'd forgot. :)

The link you provided answers nearly point for point what we have been discussing. The on ething that seems to swim against the current of the posters here, and elsewhere that I have read, is that the Procut article says full skip is faster.

I guess the flip side of it would be to say full comp will be faster if you have the power to keep the chain speed the same. My first thought is that if a skip chain and a full comp are moving the exact same speed, the full comp has to cut faster since it has more teeth removing the same (theoretically) amount of wood, rakers being equal and all.

But now that I have thought about it a little more, real world is gonna have the saw being the same, so skip probably would be faster. Not many of us are going to have a 395 running skip, and a 090 running full comp. What would be the point anyway.

Been running that bandmill too much today to get the chain mill going.

Off topic but I still can't believe that slab didn't cup and split with the pith left in it like that. Tell us how you dried that thing without it erupting like Kilimanjaro.

Thanks for the post.
The oil is all in Texas, but the dipsticks are in D.C.

PawNature

[http://www.sawmillchainsaws.com/sawchains.htm


yea Gibby that is the only info I used when I was chainsaw milling. I figured Mr. Cornes knew as much or more that anyone.
GOVERMENT HAS WAY TO MUCH CONTROL OVER OUR LIVES!!!!

alsayyed

chainsaw milling in Qatar
very intersting but i am building my a saw mill which i should finish by next week

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yKq2wecsFG0

beenthere

south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

alsayyed

this is chainsaw milling in Qatar. i think it is ok, but i already hav started building my saw mill which should be operating hopfully in two weeks time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yKq2wecsFG0

gibby

Quote from: TexasTimbers on April 30, 2008, 06:02:31 PM

Off topic but I still can't believe that slab didn't cup and split with the pith left in it like that. Tell us how you dried that thing without it erupting like Kilimanjaro.


TexasTimbers

my partner built the etable, he used the center cut from a big old red oak with the big old pith in it, if I remember it was 2" thick and 30" wide. Stickled for 23 months, I do not know how dry it was before he worked it. If you look at the pic he wrapped the slab in 1/2" square steel. He mortised and then heated the steel (he got the steel to expand about 3/8" slipped it on the slap and then hit it with water as the hot steel was burning the oak). He cut some 13 butter flies into it, it looks real nice. He gave it to a friend, no movement yet.

gibby


TexasTimbers

I never even noticed those butterflies until you mentioned it.

I don't totally understand how he did the steel retainers but it is interestting for sure. The rule of thumb is that you simply cannot keep the wood from moving. It would be hard to argue this wouldn't work though.

Still, I tend to think the wood is going to release its stress somewhere, somehow. If not by cupping and splitting where it wants to then some other way down the line.

Did the slab move alot during the 23 months and was then flattened (whatever way)? Is that a flood coat? Was it poured immediately after it was flattened and sanded? Maybe with a flood coat inhibiting further moisture release to a crawl, the steel retainers, maybe you are onto something there.

I know it's a chain thread but this topic is of direct interest to most anyone who would mill with a bar since slabs are about 90% what we are wanting from that. Please elaborate a tad more if you don't mind.
The oil is all in Texas, but the dipsticks are in D.C.

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