Inspectors

[inspectorwoody]

For the past few weeks we have been running through some Soft Maple we bought from a mill in southern Iowa. First load we just ran through and checked grade, no tally. Ran across some problem with the 1com in regards to the pith etc. Also the 2com, same problem.

Tallied last weeks load and we of course had different figures than they as far as board foot and grade. Didn't think we would get another load.

Well we ran through another 9mbf this morning and the inspector came up to go over the load with us. It didn't go so well!   He was an older gentleman with about 14-15 years experience and had logged before having a really bad accident. He said he had shipped many loads the same way to Kentucky and had no problems. We were not by any means being any more particular about grade than any other day. He was trying to cut over so many defects etc. He said the mill he worked for went broke....made me wonder if it was because of the lumber  ???

So when you guys have an inspector go over your lumber, be careful. He could be giving your lumber away or pushing the grade. Of course it comes down to customer(s) also but you will never have a problem if you are on grade. I may have only two years under my belt but I would never push grade like he was.

Just a few words of wisdom.

Gadget  8)

[Jeff]

Gadget, isnt there an industry standard that an inspector must meet. Seems I remember 5% from somewhere. Seems I alos remember a re-testing or some danG thing when an inspector is called up on his work.

What I guess I am saying is, Do you have a system that makes you answerable for the way you do your job?

[inspectorwoody]

NHLA says the lumber  is to be 80% on grade and 4% money vaule.

As far as judgement calls go, each inspector has there own feelings I guess you could say as to what may or may not plane out or what this color will do in the kiln etc.

[Jeff]

Who determines if the inspector is at that 80% and 4%? What happens if they are not? I mean when it has become a significant problem?

The 4% is what I was thinking of.

[inspectorwoody]

You compare your tallies with theirs or the sale bill as far as how much bf of each grade and total bf and figure out your percentage and I am not sure on the money end of things...haven't been given the chance to see how that works.

Now if they are not 80% on grade or 4% money than you have what you call a claim situation. Which means a national man from the NHLA comes in and goes through it and whichever mill is off pays for the National man.

Now in our situation today, we gave the inspector  the chance to call his boss and see what he wanted to do a 3rd of the way through the load as the inspector wasn't happy with us etc. We told him we would stop and they could truck it all back home but instead they told us to go ahead and grade it out and they would sell it based on our tallies. They more than likely took a loss on what they were expecting but the lumber was graded out the way it should have been in the first place. If I was the other mill, I would be finding a new inspector.

[dewwood]

Gadget,

Is there a way to get a list of certified graders in a geographic area?  I don't produce large quantities but would be interested in having a grader come in to grade what I plan to sell on the wholesale market.  Generally I do not have a full semi load at a time because of wanting to be timely as far as getting the green lumber to the buyer as quickly as possible.  I do have a few buyers in my area that will buy less than truckload lots.

If I could find a grader then my understanding is that his tally would be accepted by the buyer.  Would it cost me more than just taking what the buyers' grader comes up with?   I have taken the short grading course offered by NHLA a few years ago and do my own grading for my lumber.

I guess what I am asking is "Can I determine before shipping what my grade and tally will be?"  

Thanks for any input.

Dewey

[Ron Wenrich]

We sell most of our lumber ungraded and go by the buyer's grade.  We know which buyers are too picky and which give us a pretty good grade.  If they are too picky, then we look elsewhere for a market.

Our best markets are secondary processors.  Our worst markets are the guys who pick through lumber for resale.  

It seems that secondary proscessors can use a lot more defect than the wholesalers.  They know what is acceptable for their operations, and what isn't.  Their grade is more lenient than the NHLA grade and their pay is at or above market.  It seems that they are more interested in yield vs the number of cuttings, etc.

The wholesalers seem to be more interested in F1F and btr.  They really knock down on the common grades and their prices reflect that.  We pull some of the better grade and sell that to the wholesalers at a premium.  Common grades go to the secondary processors.

A grader would be a good addition to our operations, but mgmt sees it differently.  A good grader should be able to pay his way through board upgrades and a lower cost for handling.

Our biggest problem lies in what is considered a defect.  What bothers one company, doesn't bother another.  When is a bud whorl a defect?  Some say if it has a black heart, some won't take any.  How much of a worm hole is a defect?  Some say the hole, others say the streak.  Some will take mineral, some won't.  Color is not supposed to be a defect.

If you're looking for independent graders, sometimes you can get one from a wholesaler or secondary processor or mill that will moonlight.  Your state forestry office may know of independent lumber inspectors that will come to your site.

[dewwood]

Ron,

Thanks for the info!  I will check with some of the local sources.  
I know what you mean about the F1F and better, one wholesaler I sell to grades on F1F and I grade on Sel & Bet, that knocks a whole lot of boards from being an upper to a #1common.  I think what you said applies, find the buyers that you can work with.

Thanks again,
Dewey

[ElectricAl]

Ron,

Your management staff are making a big mistake not having an NHLA grader on staff.  The grader is not there just to grade lumber. He can improve the skills of the edger operator and trim man. He could even give the sawyer some tips. It's hard to say if the sawyer would listen or not.

Also, the grader could fill in of different machines if problems arise.

Our man Gadget wears several hats. Grader, Sawyer, Line bar positioner, edger and trim man. Push come to shove, Gadget could run the debarker or even a wheel loader.

But the most important job of a grader is UP GRADE.

Look at Cherry.  FAS @2100, SEL @2000 and 1c@1000.  There is a dollar difference between S&B and 1c.

Say a 12" wide 10' clear both faces board comes out of the edger with wane 6' long and 1.5" wide. Is the dude stacking that board sharp enough to realize the problem.
@ 10 BDFT and a grade of 1c it's worth $10, reman that board to 11.25" , now it's
9.3 BDFT of FAS worth $19.

So now the grader needs to make 2 to 5 corrections per hour to cover his wage. Any additional corrections results in PROFIT for the company.

[dewwood]

Al,

That is precisely why I would like to find an inspector to work with on my lumber.  If he helped improve the grade just a little on a load of lumber he would be well worth the expense.  There used to be an older gentleman that would come to your site and grade a load of lumber but he has retired.  I would like to find someone like him that's why I was asking Gadget if there was any type of regional list maintained by NHLA.  

Maybe I should just contact them directly.

[ElectricAl]

Dewwood,

Try calling the NHLA direct @ 901-377-1818.

Several of the large mills around here have their graders sign a "No Compete" papers. This keeps the grader from weekend work.

Find a smaller mill with a grader, less chance of restrictions.

Having access to a grader will protect you in the long run.

[Ron Wenrich]

I'm not so sure that not having a grader is a big mistake.

An NHLA grader would run us an additional $45K per year minimum.  That would put an additional $30/Mbf on the cost of our grade lumber.  Yes, the dude that looks at the boards is sharp enough to upgrade.  I doubt that we are that inept to be able to increase an additional $30/Mbf on the grade.

As for training, we work with the graders from the secondary processors.  They come to the mill and grade.  They show us the upgrading standards, and their grade is better than NHLA grade.  

I know of only 2 lumber graders that have sawn.  One went bankrupt.  Grade knowledge is not the only thing a sawyer needs to know.  Knowing when to stop is pretty important as well.

I've had lots of guys crawl into the booth with me, and I've crawled into a lot of boothes with other sawyers.  Giving tips is not a great way to make a name for yourself.  We usually keep our mouth shut and our eyes open.  Opinions are only given when asked for.  Kind of a sawyer's code.   :D  The rest of the time we lie and tell stories.  

[Jeff]

When Coleman sawmill was in business about 20 miles from us, we used to use their lumber grader paul, on the weekends. Used him for 2 or 3 years. Then one day out of the blue Paul said he could not grade for us anymore, said his boss said "they are our competition". O.K. fine and dandy.

About a month later they lost the rubber union between their vertical edger arbor and its drive motor. when you are set up with a vertical, your mill is out of commission till its fixed. They called up and asked if we had one on the shelf. I did. They said could we borrow it to our replacement gets here? It's going to take two more days.

I said Nope. I understand you are our competition.
By the way, we are still here, they're not. ;D

[inspectorwoody]

I have not signed no papers saying I can't grade on the weekends  ;D What one don't know what hurt them...sounds kind of rude I know but for a big mill like mine to try and say that by me grading for a little guy I am making it tough. I doubt it, but as Al said some mills do.

Going back to what Al said about an inspector being able to do so much. We do. Needless to say your sawyers or edger guys don't listen but that is what we are there to do.

For example: Our head saw operator can square up a log but when it comes to free sawing he either won't or when he does, he doesn't know much. Also he will run the line bar pre-positioner on everything but Walnut...hmmm...Why? Cause he doesn't know when to take a 5/4 vs. 4/4 or a 10/4 vs. 5/4 etc. etc. He tries to blame it on the lighting but I have been doing it now for two years and I do just fine. Bossman told me I was doing a good job.

Don't want you guys to think I am bad mouthing my co-workers etc but it is very fustrating when you take the time to explain stuff to them and they blow up in your face. Common words of wisdom heard are "I've been doing it like this for 20 years, why do I have to change the way I do it now."

As far as inspectors being picky etc. Thats our job. We are there to make money, not lose it. So if Joe Blow comes in off the road with a load of lumber and he tells us its such and such and we take his word for it and pay him, than go back through it and find its not than what are we suppose to do. We didn't do our job and we lost our company money and since that company pays my wages I think I will be as picky as I need to be.

A burl whorl? Somebody explain this to me? Worm holes are defects...the only time they aren't defects is when you sell the lumber WHND...Worm Holes No Defect. Mineral...each species has a limitation.....Color is not suppose to be a defect...so if I sell you a board that is yellow with rot..than thats not a defect??? Color in lumber can mean the difference between an FAS and a 3A.

Don't mean to sound like a butt, but I think it would more time consuming finding a place to go with all this different colored wood or worm holes etc. than it would be to hire a lumber inspector and sell it the way most places do. Granted a lot does depend on your customer but in the same token, if you are on grade and by the rules than really I don't see how someone can tell you they won't buy it.

Good Luck to everyone  ;D

Gadget

[Fla._Deadheader]

Gadget, do you deal directly with the small time customer that has to open his change purse to pay you ??   ;) :D :D :D

[Larry]

If I follow Al's example correctly he edged 3/4" off the board to get the wane under the half the length limit for FAS.  A little scrap of good wood went to the burn pile and there was still some wane left on the board.  Would it have been legal under the rules to just scale it at 11.25", call it FAS, and not go to the trouble of re-edging?  Seems like that would make both the seller and buyer happy.  I know in this example not much was lost but in end trimming to upgrade looks like there would be larger loses.

I guess the only reason I am interested in grading as a novice sawyer is because the knowledge sure helps me make a decision on where to put the knots when bucking a log and when to turn it.  I wouldn't mind a bit having a grader standing over my shoulder all the time when sawing and bucking. ;D  I good learn a lot.  After it is lumber I use the good, bad, and ugly grade system and nobody can dispute my calls. 8)

[inspectorwoody]

Fla. Deadheader

As far as grading for them or producing product they want?

Larry

Under the rules as you stated the the wane limitation for Fas and the 1 com side of F1F is half the length. So say you do just what you said...leave the board as is and scale it as you did remove the wane...Now ship this board in a load to another buyer and have them re-inspect it...They will tally it as a 1 com and remanufacture it like it should be for themselves and get the better price. Now how are you going to make sure they know that there is a board in the load some where already scaled back but not remaned??

You just lost out on some money because you didn't follow the rules  ;D Kind of reminds me when I was growing up and getting in trouble  :D

[inspectorwoody]

Ron

How is a person to get better at something if they are not open to suggestions and or constructive criticism? If a sawyer or even an inspector is doing something wrong to cause a loss of money and someone trys to tell them the way it should be done and they don't do it...Where does that get ya?

I know grade knowledge wise I could run our head saw opereator in the ground but as far as being fast etc. I would lose but give me some time and I"ll have the sawdust flying too  :D In my case and at our mill is just a bunch of political poop.

Oh ya...Ok so in one case I was on the pre postioner and I was marking 4x6 cants to be cut etc. Well the line bar sawyer thought he knew everything and would take another 4/4. Where did that get us? I have already removed all the grade off the board and now you are down to nothing more than pallet stock. So in our case with the capibilities we have, we are running around the line bar 6-8 4x6 that should have gone out the back, when we should be running around fresh logs getting grade lumber. If you look at all the cost in cutting down the 4x6 into lumber vs. making the cant, which do you think would be cheaper? You aren't gaining anymore bf by cutting down the 4x6. You would be gaining more grade lumber and bf if you saw the 4x6 and get fresh logs on the deck. As Al has told me...if you get a log on the deck and it is nothing more than junk...why keep it on the deck??

I know that was a long winded way to make a point but its guys like that making us lose money but yet it doesn't bother them and than they wonder why they aren't getting paid what they think they should be. Prob cause I'm getting it all  :D  ;D

Here again I don't mean to start a war and or sound like a jerk but I think we could get some good points made by all and I believe in nothing but being honest so I'm sorry if I have made anyone angry ;)

Gadget  8)

[ElectricAl]

Rules are Rules,  break the Rules and you'll pay the price ;)


Ron,

I'm not saying your staff is lacking the skills. If I made it sound that way I'm sorry.

Around here when we ship ungraded lumber we get charged 25 to 30/m for the service. So for the same money a mill could have a grader on staff.

[Ron Wenrich]

Constructive criticism is something you give.  But, when you receive it, it isn't viewed as constructive.  I've found it is much wiser to wait for it to come up in conversation.  Then it is viewed much more like advice instead of criticism.  Of course, you can move the conversation towards it, especially by asking questions.  Its not so much the message as it is the style.

You've discribed some sawyers that can't read a log, or just don't care.  I get paid to care, and I can read a log.  I always assume that a sawyer can pull different thicknesses and know when to stop unless I see differently.  I look to see how well they can maintain a saw.  If they can't do that, probably the rest of the job is lacking.

We have a small operation.  We saw about 3 MMbf/yr and do that with 5 guys.  We run a circle mill with a vertical edger.  We do have a horizontal edger for upgrade.  Primary species are red oak, tulip poplar, white oak and ash.  And, we make money.

Through the years, I've learned how to balance production with grade yield.  Selling to secondary processors have worked out real well with us.  We are selling lumber that a grader has thrown out.  It didn't make grade by the rules, but is good enough for casket lumber.  

We also maintain long term committments to our buyers.  When markets got bad the other year, we didn't miss a beat.  In fact, our business increased.  Its all in the quality of the product.  If you have good quality, your grade gets better.  Every inspector that I've talked to agrees with that.  And they buy the wood.

I've been to well over 100 mills through the years.  Everyone had their strong points and their weak points - and most knew them.  I was there just to observe, and learn.  I threw out some advice, and got some in return.  When I figured I had all the answers, they started changing the questions.   :D

[inspectorwoody]

Ron

I won't cost you $45K........................................





















Yet!  ;D  :D

Give me a few years  ;)

Gadget  8)

[Bro. Noble]

Ron,

Some of the readers might not understand what you are saying about reading the log and knowing when to stop.  The grader gets to flip the board over and look at both sides (the worst side determines the grade and is normally the side toward the center) but the sawyer only sees the best side and has to grade the unseen potential board.  It takes some experience to do this.  If he's cutting a 7X9 tie he has to decide which side pays best to make the 7" and he has to decide which side of the tie to make the last two cuts of each deminsion.  All this without slowing down.  I guess what I'm saying is that a good sawyer has to be a good grader,  but a guy that knows all the rules might be completely helpless sawing.

Usually the places you sell will let you watch them grade some lumber-----best if it's some you have sawn.  There is a lot of differences in the way certified graders grade (even though this isn't supposed to be the case) and you need to learn how they do.  Some will mark the boards if endtrimming will help you and give you the benefit for example,  but most don't.  I know how much lumber I send and about what it should average.  When the price of 3A flooring goes up,  I change the way I saw.  One place we used to sell to assumed we were selling the very best stuff to a local furniture manufacturer because I mark boards for endtrimming as I saw and they saw my marks.  My son delivered ties and pallet stock before delivering the grade lumber so only had a partial load.  They started grading less and less FAS and one face.  As soon as I saw what was going on we tried another buyer and get paid very well to drive 15 miles farther.  Those certified graders go by their bosses rules

Noble

[Ron Wenrich]

Thanks Noble.  That's exactly what I'm talking about, just having a rough time getting it across.

Woody, wages are just one part of an employee cost.  The employer also has to give 7 1/2% for social security, 20% for workman's comp, retirement, health insurance, etc.  It is all a business expense.

[inspectorwoody]

I as an inspector are doing the exact thing when running the pre postioner. I cannot see what the reverse side of the 10/4 is going to be or whatever thickness we are cutting. Judge by the heartwood and pith line.

[OneWithWood]

You know what would be cool for us novices would be to find a consultant certified grader who would come and work with us much like a consultant forester does.
I wish I could make the short course the inspector is teaching on the 14th but I already had a commitment on that date.