WELDING 2 BARS TOGETHER

[Ironwood]

 Has anyone ever welded two bars together? Any reason it can't be done? I am a good welder andI have priced new 8'-10' bars and with the current weak dollar and and a 4 MONTH  delivery time there is NO WAY I am going that direction.  My local pro saw shop has all the precision grinders to true up any misalemnets in the chain groove and offered their help. The guy who runs it fell on the floor when his distributor gave him the price. I am just looking for input, wisdom, experience. Got any? Thanks

         Ironwood

[Tom]

Since there is more to a bar than length and the shape of a bar is usually not conducive to butt jointing one to the other, I would look for a specialty bar company that makes harvester and chainsaw bars and price  having one built.  Talladega Machinary Sales usually has an ad in their catalogue for at least one company.

http://www.tms-sales.com/

[Ironwood]

Tom,

Thanks for the response Tom.

But, that is my point. I "went" there, TRY $3200 for a an10'er through Bailey's. No offense to them (YUP, thanked everyone I spoke to there for sponsoring the FF ;D), But YOY! AND 4 months wait, THAT's FOUR MONTH'S. Yeah I checked it out, and I'de rather waste my money TRYING to weld to together. I have tons of machinist, and CNCguys around me that could easily make one custom and likely beat the price AND certainly beat the time frame. Part of it is the exchange rate, Bailey's gets their's from Canada (Cannon),  so I understand the issue there (as did they). I checked w/ Granberg ( Eric Granberg is getting back w/ me the first of the week), his supplier is somewhere in Oregon. So, we'll see. Everyone has been great in trying to figure this out, I am just a "full steam ahead", "*DanG the torpedos" kiinda guy. I WILL MAKE THIS WORK.  ;D

Ironwood

[sharp edge]

Iron
Are you going to cut trees lengthways? Forget welding. Have a machine shop make one out of 4140 pre hard use a .062 slot. If the thing gets out of shape hammer it like us circle miller do to keep our saws flat.
SE

[Ironwood]

Sharp edge,

Yes, lengthwise. The advantage of a CNC is I could have the second one made much cheaper once it is in the program. I will have to check w/ my machinst about the prehardened steel, I do know sometimes that has been an issue. A couple of local machinsts love the off the wall stuff I throw at them (I always get a smile), "what are you doing now?", "your building a WHAT?" I always tell them if the dimensions go below 1/16 th of an inch, I don't what that is! I'm a wood guy!!

Thanks for your input


Ironwood

[Fla._Deadheader]

I knew 2 guys, in Arkansas, that welded bars together, to cut trees down. No reason it can't be done.

[Ironwood]

FLH,

Thanks, Anything unusual about how they did it that you remember?


Ironwood

[Ironwood]

Tom,

After rereading your post, I do remember a co. that made blue and yellow (not Baker) that made a cantilevered breakdown saw for massive logs that had a long bar on it. I will have to look in my back issues of TMS to see if I can find it. Good idea.

Ironwood

[scsmith42]

Reid, contact Captain at Timberpro.  He may be able to get you a better deal.

Personally I like the idea of machining a bar versus welding two together. 

[low_48]

I wonder about laminating the bar out of three pieces of stock, then either plug or spot weld, or even rivets. Heck, autobody shops are using more adhesive all the time to glue body panels together. The center could be laser cut and not require machining. If you used alignment holes or rivets, the outside two plates wouldn't need much to dress it to square.

[dancan]

don't forget to post pictures   

[Nate Surveyor]

Nate Blathers:

I think that saw bars are laminated out of 2 grades, and types of metal.
The core is strong, and springy, but not too hard.
The outsides are REAL HARD, and brittle.

Typical bars are built this way, to make them last.

So, to do what you are doing, maybe find somebody that can heat, and oil temper the edges of the machined bar, to get them hard enough.

Just Nate Blathering on a subject he only thinks he knows a little about!

Nate

[timberfaller390]

There is no reason you can't weld 2 or 3 or even 10 together. Possible problems are burning through the bar while welding, weld spatter in the groove, and lining up every thing properly. The way I would do it is take several bars the same length/width, start with bar #1 and cut it off at the begining of the widest part geting rid of the mounting end. take #2 and a set of calipers and cut out the middle section where each end matches the width of the cut end of #1, do the same with as many bars as it takes to get the right length then take one of the cast off mounting ends and weld it to your project bar. Find a good welder that can tig it for you grind the welds down smooth then find a good blacksmith to re-temper it for you as cutting/welding/grinding will definatly take the temper out of the steel and you should have a workable bar for alot less than 3200 bucks. Just how I would do it (and I have a degree in appalachian backwoods engineering).

[Ironwood]

Timberfeller, Nate,

Thanks, I too have a degree in Appalacian backwoods engineering, and a minor in tenacity. Your suggestion is good, one of my concerns is symmetry as most MONSTER bars tend to widen significantly at their appex. It is due (I believe ) to the chain speed and tendency to "throw" itself from just plain velocity and the associated stretch under heat. The expansion during periods of "heating" is more than likely VERY siginficant for a chain of this length. My 6' hardnosed bar I have noticed the stretch.. This may be the biggest challenge. I have the spatter thing down, and the grinding in the groove is no problem (local saw shop has a machine and has offered). I thought the TIG may be the way to go as well (more of a fusing than a welding). The blacksmith thing, well, I am well networked in that community, one challenge is a consistant heat over the length 8'+. This will need to be dealt with and solved.

        Thanks Agian, Ironwood

[Dave Shepard]

You are going to need a giant heat treatment oven to get it right. I don't know of any 12' ovens around. :D You could make your own pipe forge to do it, but such a thin piece is sure to distort during the quenching processes. I say go for it, keeping in mind that there is a reason they cost what they do.


Dave

[Jeff]

Have you considered the possibilities of a bar-less chainsaw?  Rather then running the chain on the horizontal, run it up and down. Use a spring loaded sprocket on one end to maintain tension. Approach sawing the log like they would sawing something much much harder. Stone.

Quarry saws use diamond rope.

LINK

[Firebass]

Welding 4140 is done all the time. I'm one of those machinest guys you said you make smile ;D ;D.   If you are a good welder  grind the butt joint till a good root weld can be made, preheat the bar over a large area.  Multiple smaller welds are better than one or two bigger ones.  weld one side then the other and repeat until vee is fully welded.  Make a test on a couple of old bars and do a stress test on it.  if it doent snap in two pieces or bend too easily you've got it lick'd...   If it bends too easy or at the weld it will most likely still work it would just wear faster.

Firebass

[Jeff]

I found this reference

http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=16267680

[olyman]

heres the only ques id have--on the racesaws--with high hp---they have a huge jump in the height of the bar width at midsection--i believe to keep the chain from jumping--would that be a problem with two bars welded together??? and if you could find the right metals--and someone with a laser cutter, that would be the way to make a bar--just cut holes in the sides of the outer bar pieces to plug weld them to the inner core---and use the sprocket nose off one of the other bars---they could also cut the bar adjustment slots, and oil lube holes in the bars----and holes to get the roller mounted---for id think much less than 3200 !!!!!!!!!!

[Ironwood]

Olyman,

That is the symmetry I was speaking of.

Jeff,

Thanks for the links. My 6 year old and myself enjoyed THAT. The timber I am cutting will be VERY long and VERY wide so vertical cutting is out (and I have the 40' rail already built as well). But certainly a good approach if I could. I will attach some pictures of the rail and the kind of wood I'll be cutting.


WELL, I found some bars today , VERY reasonable, and all built in the USA, mostly on the west coast. L & M in Portland Oregon, makes cantilevered breakdown saws that use a chain saw bar, 8-9-10 footers $950-$1200. Madsens in Oregon, very comparable as well on what they had and they were going to call Cannon in Canada (told him, "ahhh, yeah, you may NOT want to do that"). So, Keith @ L & M is going to get my business. I MUST say everyone from Bailey's, L & M, to Madsens, was great and very helpful and understanding in the challenges of the weak dollar. I just need to talk to Captain about the oiler deal with the long bars, I may need to pressurize it for such a distance.

Here are some pictures of the "RAIL" and I am rebuilding the carriage hung from below. It will be power feed and power raise/ lower. There will be detachable bandsaw head on one side and a detatchable chainsaw bar on the other. The detatchable portions will be hung from a docking station on each end (one for chainsaw, one for bandsaw). Two 30" three groove bandsaw wheels. I am shootong for a 72" throat and 20" clearence above the blade. My machinist is just finishing the second wheel bearings and assembly.

Thanks for everyone's input.  Ironwood




         

[timberfaller390]

 I just need to talk to Captain about the oiler deal with the long bars, I may need to pressurize it for such a distance.

Could you not use a stinger handle and an auxillary oiler? I've seen them in the baileys book in the alaskan mill section

[Dave Shepard]

Jeff, I am helping a friend of mine build a wire saw to cut blocks of marble down to managable size so they can be cut with the rotary diamond saws. It has 2 meter wheels, and will cut up a 25 ton block of marble. We have a 50 ton P&H to load the blocks onto the car. The mechanicals are complete, just waiting on the control cabinet to be finished and installed.


Dave

[Ironwood]

Timberfeller,

Two power heads two oilers and may add some aux.. if needed.


Ironwood

[olyman]

iron. i just talked to a brother welder today--he fabricates also--he said he could get any thickness steel, and hardness, and he thought my idea of having a laser cutter cut it--and all necessary holes was spot on--and you said you have the person that has a bar dresser to true the top of the rails---------since it would be welded together--id almost think a few extra holes could be punched in the center piece--to lighten it a mite----

[Ironwood]

Well, all solved. MADSEN'S quoted me 8'-9'-10' for $469-$569-$729 respectively  :oWOW, That is what I'de hoped for. No welding here.


Thanks All, Ironwood

[bandmiller2]

Aw Ironwood you got us all excited then pooped out.Could be done just match the width of the bars and before you join them file a short lead in to the groove.Put a tight fitting piece in the grooves to align for welding.Frank C.