Firewood vs cants

[Neil_B]

I need some math done. I'm trying to figure out if processing 7 and 8" x 8' straight firewood timber is more profitable as 6" cants or as just firewood.
Is there formula somewhere that would tell me how many 8" logs would make up a bush cord of wood?

6x6x8' sells for 3.80 per piece or $380/mbdft
1 bush cord firewood sells for $150
Takes 42 6x6 to make up 1000bdft, therefore 42 logs.
How many 8" logs to make up a cord??

Just looking at the numbers, the 6x6 is more profitable but is it really when you factor in the waste and such with sawing. There is less work involved with the cants as opposed to the cutting and splitting but if it only took 1/2 as many logs to make up a cord as it does to make 6x6 then the numbers change drastically.

 ??? ??? ??? ???

[ARKANSAWYER]

  Math! I like Math!  After Cal III you would be amazied what I can do with numbers.
 A cord of 8" round logs would be 6 high and 12 long (about) that would make 72 4 ft logs or 36 8 ft logs.  So lets say that it take 42 logs to make 1,000 bdft of 6x6 cants or one cord of fire wood.  If you get $3.80 for the cants that is just a tad over $0.15 a bdft.  If you get $150 for the fire wood then you get about half as much but do not have to saw or move slabs or shovel saw dust or wear out blades and a chain saw will use less gas making fire wood.  I would guess depending on your mill take a day or so to saw up the 6x6's and I can saw and split up a cord of fire wood by lunch.  
  I get at least $7.50 for the 6x6's and sell the slabs for fire wood and can cut 50 a day.
  So depending on what you pay for the logs I do not see much profit either way.  If they are free then I would make fire wood out of what you can sell or use and saw the rest up so that you will not be board. ;D
ARKANSAWYER

[Neil_B]

Thanks Arky,
I'm paying about 75/cord in log length + or - and these 8 inchers are the straighter pieces in the pile. The only thing I'm thinking of is less handling with the 6X6 than the firewood and of course I can always sell the slabs as well. Where do you get 7.50 for them? Maybe I should be looking elsewhere for a market for that rather than a pallet mill.
Neil

[Ron Wenrich]

Better check your math a little bit better.  If you're getting $3.80 per piece, you're only getting $158/Mbf.  If you're getting $380/Mbf, then you're getting $9.12 per piece.  24 bf in a 6x6x8.

$380/Mbf isn't too bad.  We're getting $340/Mbf for our pallet stock.  All our waste gets sold as either chips or sawdust.

I'm coming up with a cubic foot volume of about 2.8 cu ft/ 8" log.  A cord of stacked wood has about 90-95 cu ft of wood.  The rest is airspace.  So, you need about 34 logs per cord.

34 logs would gross you $310 when sawed.  To saw, you would end up with a gross profit of $235.  For firewood, you would end up with a gross profit of $75.  

To figure your net profit, you have to reduce it by your costs.  That would depend on the cost/minute of operation and how many minutes it would take to work up the same amount of logs.  

A lot would depend on how much of a demand you have for firewood.  Right now, things have been a little flat.  To keep cash flowing, then you should be selling pallet stock.  Come this fall, things could change, depending on oil prices.  

[Stephen]

My grandfather once said it takes about 2 cords to make 1000 bdft (Depends on species, size, etc. but he was not too far off).
If your logs are 7-8", they will not make a 6X6, a 6X6 is 8.5" corner to corner.
Arky's figures are the same as mine for price ($3.80 each = 159.60/mbft) which equates to about $80/cord.
The economics would say make firewood, as a sawmill owner, I cut boards from anything I can get on the mill. The slabs go to firewood. If you could sell a few boards from the larger logs for a price better than $0.15/ft (I get $1.20 to $3 for hardwood), saw them up.
As for less labour, when the chainsaw is running, it will take less to block it than it will to load it on the mill.

My two cents, Stephen.

[Neil_B]

Excellent points!! I did goof in the math for the pricing per 1000. It was 4x4 that I can get that price for. For some reason the 4x4 are around 370/mbdft and the 6x6 and 4x6 is 150/mbdft. Can't figure that one! So it looks like I'd be better off selling it as firewood (getting lots of calls for it now). Or I could pull 4 slabs off and make 4x4's as I could use a bunch around here anyway. I don't think that with the points you guys made that 6x is going to be worth the trouble to sell to this one company.
I can however make 6x's out of them and keep them for my pallet stock as the other company I deal with takes 5 1/2 wide stock for a much better price. Thats cut to thickness and lengths though but still average about 500+/mbdft.

[ARKANSAWYER]

  When it comes to ciphering coin in a deal like this a man has got to add the right figures together.   If you pay $1 for watermelons and sell them in Little Rock for $0.75 getting a bigger truck to haul more at one time is not going to help you make more money. :D  
   Looking around for markets to get rid of what you produce is the best way.  But you have to watch how much you invest to get rid of it.  How long it takes you to saw and the cost of sawing have to come into play some where.  I get $0.20 bdft to saw so I figure when I saw any thing to sell that it is at least the price of the log + sawing to make at least break even.    So if You are paying $75 a cord and can get $380 mbdft for the cants that is about $0.31 bdft for sawing.  Or you could do some of that fuzzy math and keep the investors putting in money and it will look like profit coming in.  Now if I could get a CEO job at an ENRON type place for $100 million a year I could take up sawing in style after just a few years of work.   I can move money around with the best of them as my banker and wife think that I am making money even though the tax man and I understand that is really just a big loss every year.  It is just where you are standing when you look at the check book i guess.
ARKANSAWYER

[Neil_B]

I keep trying to say to  myself that I'm making money but then I remember all the fuel and other costs I'm paying out and I wonder why I'm doing this. Then it comes down to how much I enjoy doing it so the losses go out the window.
Time for me at this point isn't really a big deal, as long as I make something by the end of the day I'm happy. Whether it's $50 or 300, as long as something is there at the end after the costs are paid, I'm happy. That's the difference between doing something you enjoy and working for someone you don't. But sooner or later I know debt is going to catch up with me if I don't start managing a little better.
I also gotta work on my math ;D
thanks for the pointers guys.

[Ron Wenrich]

Although a flat sawing rate is a simple way of approaching sawing costs, it usually doesn't reflect your true costs.

If you look at how long it takes to saw different sized logs, and what the yield is, you'll find that there are some logs that just ain't worth the time to roll onto the headblocks.  Logs that are too big or too small will be produced at a loss.  It doesn't matter what type of operation.

I always figured that it is more worthwhile to saw logs that produce a profit and find a home for those that don't.  That means that big logs go to a mill that can handle them better and small logs go to either firewood, scragg mill, shaving mill, or paper mill.

As long as you keep on sawing more logs that are profitable vs those that aren't, you'll keep your head above water, but won't make too much money.  Custom sawing at a set price per hour is also an alternative.  

The size of a profitable log will depend on log costs, lumber values and mfg costs.  

[Neil_B]

It's going to be tough the first little while figuring out what to charge. I started off with an hourly charge but realized that until I FULLY become accustomed to the mill and my own abilities, I'd better charge by the board foot. Even that is difficult to charge accordingly because like everywhere else there are some charging next to nothing and others that are way high. So somewhere in the middle is where I'll go and if they don't like it they will find someone else I'm sure.

An example with firewood. I'm gaining a lot of customers to the west of me because the prices around there are upwards of $190/cord. I charge 150 plus .35 cents per kilometer for the delivery. Some customers are 180 kilometers round trip but they are still getting a decent price in their eyes as I do give a good load of wood. That price per kilometer is on a 1 or 2 cord load regardless.
Yesterday I had someone call south of me. He told me he pays $200/cord (for 3-4 cord) to have it delivered and piled in his box, but I couldn't dump it out of the truck because it would ruin his asphalt. Told him my price and it would be about $40 for delivery as he was at least 120 kiliometers away. He would have no part in paying me that much for delivering. I said that's fine and " take care, goodbye". Then I get another call to the west and they were more than willing to pay $60 for delivery( on a 2 cord load).
It's much the same with the pallet stock as well. The one company pays $150/m whereas the other will pay over $500/m for cut to size. Still not alot of money but keeps me busy and gets rid of a lot of scrap so to speak.

I'm sure I'll get it figured out eventually, hopefully before my head goes under water.

[Tom]

It's difficult to find a way to charge for on-site custom sawing work because "by-the-hour" and the customer thinks you can't work fast enough; "by-the-board foot" you take a beating on some of the large and small logs or the labor.  The good thing about Board Foot charging is that you can write up a loss as good advertising most of the time whereas it's hard to write up a disgruntled customer from hourly charges as anything but a loss.  I've found that Board Foot charges have been the fairest as long as both parties hold up their end of the deal.

[Neil_B]

Does it seem to get any easier to charge by the hour with these "fully hydraulic" mills? Or is the general consensus with people still the board foot rate? I get the idea that my mill is more of a piece of machinery than it is labourous(sp) and can therefore push the hourly rate a little easier much like bringing in a backhoe instead of a shovel.
I suppose too it's a matter of feeling the market and maybe offer both rates or base it on the type of job on hand. Lots of small logs, hourly , big ones, board foot.
I've started out telling people it's by the foot but if I have lots of extra work to do then it's hourly for that work. I've heard that that is a good mix for charging.

[Brian_Bailey]

I've never felt comfortable charging by the hour.  I sense the customer feels cheated if you stop to wipe the sweat from your brow.  By the board foot, I'll stop and take a long pull from the water bottle an not feel guilty one bit  ;) .  

On figuring your costs, don't forget the tax man, it sure hurts when the ol' boy reaches in an grabs .... !

[Tom]

As you have so aptly guessed, the limitations aren't necessarily with the mill. Most of the newer hydraulic and set-works operated mills can run circles around 3 or 4 people.  That's why the subject of labor comes up so frequently.  The sawing of the log is the fun part.  Blade maintenance, machine maintenance, log handling and board stacking are the things that eat up productive time. Waste can be a problem too. Slabs will soon take over a saw site and sawdust needs shoveling.  Bark will accumulate under and around the mill and need to be removed.  These are the things that make the sawmill (as a piece of machinery) stop.

You can saw faster than an off-loader can work, especially after he's been at it for 5 or 6 hours.  When you look into his eyes after a week of it, you can't help but have some compassion.

One of the most dangerous things an Army can do is outrun its supply lines.  A smart foe may just stand in the shadows and let a trained and well-equipped army advance until it has no choice but to stop or starve.  Then they can kill it.

A sawmill is much the same kind of animal.  We get so concerned with the amount of product we can produce in a shift that it's easy to forget that the limiting factors are really the human ability to keep up.  

What makes a Board Foot rate so fair for the customer and the sawyer is that the money is dependent on the quantity of wood in the log and the sawyer's ability to harvest it.  It doesn't matter whether it takes an hour or a week, the money remains the same.  If the sawyer can minimize the time he makes more by the hour.  The problem is that there is little incentive for the customer to help.  It becomes a psychological game for the sawyer to get folks to work without pushing them so hard that they rebel.

If the sawyer has help that is also Board Foot oriented, then it becomes easier to manage the job. If the help is hourly, then the sawyer must treat himself as if he were hourly to keep the job on the customer's schedule.  When your customer is thinking on the Hourly wage level, you will notice that there are fewer breaks, thicker slabs and little effort for one person to help another.  Everyone goes home whipped and some don't show up tomorrow.  Even the customer doesn't like being pushed by the Damocles Sword of hourly charges once he realizes the work involved.

On the other side of the coin is the customer who will take advantage of a sawyer who works by the board foot.  Some will drag up pulp wood sized blocks and sit in the shade drinking their iced tea while you bust your butt trying to make a day.  Some will show you an oversized log and then disappear for hours on the cell phone until you have to do it yourself.  It's a real downer to get on the job and find that the trees haven't been bucked and are lying right where they were felled.  

Some of these jobs are ready made for hourly charges.  Somebody needs to pay for the labor of accumulating the wood and sawing the under or oversized logs besides the sawyer.  It's especially important to realize that the oversized logs are difficult on equipment and the undersized logs are time consuming.  

Explaining that to a customer will often justify your job management and charges.  Many just don't know and after the first experience will be more apt to be sawyer friendly.  That's where the "advertising " part comes in.  You must be able to judge whether you are being taken advantage of or if it was an honest error.  I have eaten many small jobs because the advertisement value far outweighed the profit, if any, that I would get from tormenting the customer.  A customer who was squeezing blood from a turnip has also taken me in more than once.  You hold the keys in the long run though because you don't have to return.  

Unlike many stationary businesses where the front office is a fence between the customer and decision-making employees, portable sawyers are face to face with their customers.  Good Will is a real asset in any business, especially one that is a single proprietorship.  It only pays to be smart enough to negotiate so tightly that you don't leave a dime on the table if you will never be back at the same table again.  It's those nickels and dimes that you leave on the table for the customer to pick up that create your reputation.


I didn't mean to expound so vociferously but the damage is now done.

To answer your question:  If your work site and help is prepared properly, your board foot charges can earn you more money than a realistic hourly charge.

At $50 per hour you will gross $400 per eight hour day, maybe. You will be challenged by set-up time, maintenance time, whose clock you use, break time, lunch time and work speed.

On most jobs, you should average between 1300 and 2500 feet per day. Two thousand board feet will gross you $400 and you work at your own pace and in complete control of the job.  You may end up making more and you may make less but you will sleep better at night knowing that you did your best and weren't driven.

[Bibbyman]

Tom,  You can "expound so vociferously" if you feel the need.  

Just don't caught doing it in a public pool. :    Ok ???

[Neil_B]

Well put Tom!
Thanks

[woodmills1]

I charge $50/hour but lower that to $40 for customers who become repeats or for those in the wood business.  The temptation is to think a 10 hour day gives either $500 or $400 in profit, but as was stated above I have learned to remember how much time and money it took to be able to get that money.  When sawing at someones site I bring at least 10 blades, so factor in either the initial cost or the time or money to get them sharp and set.  Before I leave the house I check belt tension, clean and oil the air filter, grease the machine, and lube the electrical contacts.  Then there is the time to drive there and return.  I have had jobs where I stay on site for a few days and I would recon if I got paid for 40 hours I would have DanG near 50 or 60 hours invested, especially if I factor in the sharpening time.  BUT to be honest I love this wood stuff 8) and in three weeks there will no longer be the teacher Mills just the WOODMILLS.  Like this is just so cool, working in the rain yesterday as I peeled open a 26" hemlock butt that showed clear face all the way around.  $80 worth of 8/4 by 8" product along with 6 2x6 and only 2 pieces with one knot each.  It doesn't get any better than this.

[Neil_B]

Had an old timer tell me yesterday
"If you're too busy you're not charging enough, if you're not busy at all you're charging too much"
Goes without saying I guess. ???

Woodmills1, do you charge a setup fee for the mill to go with the hourly? Or do you start charging from the time you leave your place or when you get to the site?

btw, I've been sawing up the smaller logs for 4x4's anyway as I need them to build a few air dry sheds. Getting some nice heavy slabs out of them to sell with the firewood so should get a little bit for my time out of them.

[woodmills1]

No set up charge and no drive time charge for less than 20 miles, also no blade charge till the first metal hit, then all bets are off.  First hit is free then either they scan and pay $22 for every hit after or pay me to scan.

on those smaller logs when I cut 4x4 I get a lot of 1 by 3,4,5, and 6 that works well for fencing that i sell for between 25 and 45 cents a bd ft, helps with the bottem line.

by the way anyone else notice that even with all the rain the pine has been drying real nice.  good color and no stain or mold?