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Indiana Gray Bat

Started by wesdor, April 10, 2008, 06:54:29 PM

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wesdor

I just got off the phone from talking with a forester that has helps me manage our timber.  He shared with me that anyone with an approved Forestry Plan in Illinois is forbidden to cut timber of any kind (unless it is on the ground), between March 1 and November 1.  That includes snags and dead trees.

Does anyone know more information about this?  That is quite a bite if true.

Furby

Cedarman knows about that and has mentioned it before, so I'd belive it to be true.

Tom

That falls right in line with what I've been hearing of Illinois and the Governor's views on Forestry and timber harvest.   I may not be right, but, Illinois is getting quite a reputation.  I think the state might be a retirement community for Californians.

submarinesailor

Maybe we should start talked about Illinois the way we talk about Maryland, calling it the "Peoples Republic of Illinois". 

WDH

That is a sad erosion of landowner's rights by the masses who want us to shoulder the burden of producing products for their benefit at our cost without understanding the consequences.  The ignorant can be stupid as well.  I pity that :).  We are not stoopid cows. 

The civilized pampered suburbians really scare me.  We have to fight these ill-informed laws and regulations tooth and nail.  Please, join your state forestry association to give them the strength to stand up to this type of government regulation that erodes our rights as landowners.
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Gary_C

Quote from: WDH on April 10, 2008, 07:44:36 PM

The civilized pampered suburbians really scare me. 

I see a far bigger threat from the large paper buyers like Time, Inc. who are beginning to erode our rights thru their purchasing departments. They now have extended their green policies into some of the paper mills and are dictating forest management plans with their enormous purchasing power.

I just recently had to sign a certification for a large pulp mill that specifies where I cannot cut wood for supply to their mill. One of the restrictions is no wood from woodlands that are being converted to other uses. It's ironic that one of my next jobs is thinning a pine plantation for the DNR that is controlled by the Scientific and Natural people and their original demand was to clear cut the whole tract so they could convert it to grasslands. The foresters have refused their demands so far, but if they did allow it all to be cut, the state could lose their FSC certification and the wood may not be salable.  ::)

These behind the scenes efforts to control forestry and logging are really frightening because the people doing it are flying under the radar.  :(
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

WDH

Quote from: Gary_C on April 10, 2008, 08:37:56 PM
The foresters have refused their demands so far, but if they did allow it all to be cut, the state could lose their FSC certification and the wood may not be salable.  ::)

I am not aware of any US state that is FSC certified.  Are you sure?  That would be a first in the US.  FSC is not popular in the US.
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

SwampDonkey

Here neither, the large companies rejected it for other types of certification. They even wrote FSC standards for the Maritimes and as far as I can see no one has followed it.

http://www.fsccanada.org/Maritimes.htm

However, I did receive an envelope the other day from Toyota that was made from FSC wood sources.

As far as Markets yes, certification can effect that. But, as far as price on the wood products, don't expect a better price.  ::)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Gary_C

From the MN DNR website:

http://www.dnr.state.mn.us/forestry/certification/index.html

This has been in effect for about two years now. On all state sales we are required to fill out chain of custody receipts for all loads and deposit stubs in a lock box plus the one large mill also has their chain of custody receipt to be submitted for all loads.

The pulp (paper) mills are under strong pressure from their sales departments to record the amount of certified wood they are buying under pressure from buyers of coated papers, especially Time, Inc. and all those upscale magazines like OPRAH.

As the guy in charge of compliance with certification at Sappi told me when I inquired about Tree Farm wood, which currently has no certification, he said it is not a question of price. They will simply not buy coated papers from any source that does not buy from some percent of certified sources. I am not sure the percent, it may be fifty. This new certificate goes even further, requiring that I as a supplier will not buy wood from non approved sources like land that is being converted to crop or other uses.
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

Tom

My wood is not for sale to mills or buyers of coated paper, or anyone else who tries to lever their whim with my business.   They can rot in "the other place" for all I care.  My trees store well on the stump and there is no entity that can force me to  harvest short of a court of law.  My trees are mature when I say they are mature.   If I sell my land it's because I made the decision to do it, not because some other business black listed my product.

They can stick their micro managing controls in their ear.

Hope I don't have to deal with that socialism here. >:(

woodtroll

Back to the bat deal...
It only affects practices covered (paid for by) the federal USDA EQIP program.
It mainly affects TSI and burning.
It is to prevent harm to the Indiana Brown bat and the Gray bat, both protected.

It is an example of property rights sold for cost share. You want help to pay for the work you have to play by their rules.
The restrictions seem to be written by pencil pushers who have no idea about on the ground forestry, with input from foresters who spend their time reading reports written by pencil pushers.
I have not heard any out cry from forestry groups. I have been told if I do not like it don't sign up for the program.
This directly affects my business as a forester.
It directly affects my income.
So needless to say this is just firing me up.
But you can still cut timber, anytime just don't have cost share to do it.
This is a slippery slope.

Gary_C

Actually there are a number of states and even some counties in Minnesota that have FSC certification. Here is the current list from the FSC site.

http://www.fsc.org/keepout/en/content_areas/92/1/files/2008_03_31_FSC_Certified_Forests.pdf
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

Tom

The last cost share I used was to site-prep for a planting.  I did it to get the Fed's name on my papers to hopefully keep the local taxman off my butt.  I thought it would give me some validity.  The money was so little that it wasn't worth the 10 years of having my hands tied behind my back.  I won't do it again.  My freedom is worth more than the government is willing to pay for it.  No  more cost share for me.

OneWithWood

The State Forests of Indiana are FSC certified.  Landowners who are members of the American Tree Farm System in the state are certified through AFTS.  Therefore a good deal of the lumber in the state is certified.

I have cost share through WHIP for invasive pest control (Autumn olive, japanese honeysuckle, ailanthus, multi flora rose, etc.)  I did not see any restrictions on when I could harvest in the contract I signed.  I am in prime habitat for the Indiana Brown Bat.  I try to do the bulk of any harvesting during late August through December when the ground is dry. 
One With Wood
LT40HDG25, Woodmizer DH4000 Kiln

wesdor

Woodtroll,

Thanks for the information.  I do have a forestry plan - but that is basically to keep the taxes a bit lower and also to help me do a better job of managing the timber.

If I read this correctly, as long as I do NOT accept money for improvements, the Bat concerns do not pertain to me.

BTW - I do not plan to do any clear cuts.  Basically TSI taking out the really bad trees.

Tom - you seem to have a higher opinion of the Illinois Governor than most citizens here - including Democrats.  Unfortunately, you are probably correct about the bad reputation Illinois is getting.



SwampDonkey

When we do silviculture cost share it is assumed that the owner will have that land in forest production for a minimum of ten years. On small lots, 12 acres, the owner signs an agreement to not develop the lot into housing lots or make a field of it. But, nothing is enforceable and nobody will be checking. I've seen a couple spruce plantations about 20-50 acres each become potato fields after 10 years. One guy was in his 20's and bought a 25 year old plantation and said 30 years was too long to wait for returns so he made it into a spud field. Most likely got a farm development loan to clear it.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Faron

I learned last spring that once a mining permit has been applied for on a tract  in Indiana, no logging can happen between April and November because of those bats.  The logger I was talking to wanted to make sure he got the job done before the permitting process started.
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for dinner.  Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote. - Ben Franklin

woodtroll

wesdor
The restrictions are only tied to EQIP not FDA money. EQIP is a federal program through the NRCS office and your district forester. FDA is state forestry money (most likely not available). Currently FDA amounts are not as high.
Just remember it has nothing to do with harvesting.
That is not to say it won't change.
It is still a slippery slope.

Cedarman

For state owned timber in southern Indiana the logging dates are from Nov 15 to Mar 31.  If the timber is cut and yarded, the logs can be removed from the yard as long as it is in the contract time period.  The Feds are probably the same.  I can log anytime I want on my own property as far as I know.

I personally feel the damage done to the woods in winter logging outweighs the gains from any bat that might have to move when a tree falls.  But what do I know.

Its nice to log cedar in Oklahoma where it is considered a pest and people and government pay us to get rid of it.  It is amazing the grass that comes up in one year after a stand of cedars are removed. 
I am in the pink when sawing cedar.

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