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New shop planer

Started by Norwiscutter, April 05, 2008, 10:46:49 AM

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Norwiscutter




I am in the market for a new shop planer and have been examining the market pretty hard, but wanted to get the opinion of the people here before I make a commitment.

My budget is in the neighborhood of around 4000- 4500.
18-24 inch capacity.
segmented infeed for uneven stock.
stealth/Byrd/ etc. cutterhead is desirable although a used machine could be without.
If three phase, we need to subtract the cost of the converter from the budget. IE 3500 planer + 1000-1500 for converter

I have been going back and forth with the used verses new options
some models I have been looking at...
Powermatic 180 (used)
Baker planers (new)
All the grizzly stuff
Extrema 20+24 inch
any delta, Powermatic, bridgewood, general, etc. that would fit the bill

limitations:
Planer can not weigh over 1600 lbs as that is the limit of my skidloader with an expensive piece of equipment on the forks ;)

I like the baker quite a bit, but it doesn't have a sectional infeed. Any thoughts on if this will slow me down much?

Anyone have any experience with the extrema's? Square-D components and a Baldor motor seam hard to beat.


I also like the idea of picking up a heavy built used machine, but the idea of changing out babits etc. has me a bit nervous. The older machines though are just so much better looking than the new ones. When I win the Lotto, I am decking out the shop in Northfield stuff.

Thanks in advance.
Si vis pacem, para bellum.

woodhick

I have a Powermatic 225.  24" capacity ,segmented infeed, variable feed speed.  I love it, however it outweighs your skidsteer limit.  Mine weighs 3200#   The 180 is built the same way only smaller in width and doesn't have powered bed rolls.  I used a 20" import for several years and couldn't complain but the older cast iron machines are a lot nicer.  Good luck in whichever one you get.
Woodmizer LT40 Super 42hp Kubota, and more heavy iron woodworking equipment than I have room for.

Norwiscutter

I guess if I could find a good deal on a bigger, older planer I could accomidate the weight issue.

3200# would be pushing it though..
Si vis pacem, para bellum.

Ironwood

I have had many planers. My current everyday user is a 225 Powermatic (Green, not gold stick with greeen if you buy one of the Powermatics). I also have a whopper Oliver 361 30" machine (10,000lbs) and a Buss 40" machine, both in storage. Stick to the older stuff if you like high quality and don't mind fine tuning things. Stay away from old Cresent B series (B-18 and B-24, they had rubber infeed bushings that are obsolete). ALWAYS get ball bearing and round head (not round clamshell), babbit is fine AND smooth but not likely worth the hassel unless it is scrap cheap. I can look around for you if you have a model in mind (I am a "finder" as one friend says). All American iron from 1940's-1970's is GOOD AND PRIME. If you are patient you can find a good one reasonable. Watch "online" stuff. It can look great in a photo and be complete junk (I just had a gold 180 repaired for a friend, he bought it online, it looked great but complete crappola). $2000 he spent (plus shipping) and he should have had another $1200 in the repair. Hear it run, see it used, LOOK closely, things like jack screws, gibs and the like can be just barely usable and unit sells for top dollar. Many shops today have no clue how to maintain machines and over torque and ruin machined parts.

Ironwood
There is no scarcity of opportunity to make a living at what you love to do, there is only scarcity of resolve to make it happen.- Wayne Dyer

BBTom

Two woodworkers I know of bought fancy 26" extrema planers.  One sent his back, the other one just uses his for light finish planing.   Seems they will not feed a board thru if you try to take off more than 1/16" in a pass.  Might have been a coincedence, but those are the only two extrema planers I have any knowlege of.
2001 LT40HDD42RA with lubemizer, debarker, laser, accuset. Retired, but building a new shop and home in Missouri.

David Freed

BBTom,

This is a basic question, and I am guessing there is another problem but, were they waxing the bed on their planers? All of the planers I have used would not feed right unless you kept the bed slick.

Norwiscutter

Reid,

You mention some of the things that have me concerned about a used machine. There is really no way to know if something is any good just looking at it over the internet, causing me to lean towards a new machine for customer service reasons. If you have a line on anything used that looks good, please let me know. I don't mind doing a bit a work on something to make it work if I know that in the end i will end up with a better machine. PM me if you have any ideas.
My shop is only 30x44 so I think we might have to count out the 5 ton options despite how much fun they would be to have.

BBTom, That is not a very good report on the Extremas, even if subjective in nature.  I thought they might be a bit better than the other Asian products available, but apparently not so.

Thanks for the great information so far.
Si vis pacem, para bellum.

BBTom

I believe they tried teflon spray.  This machine has powered rollers top and bottom.  When the machine started to get a load, the rollers just stopped.

The dealer picked up the machine and worked on it for a week, then shipped it back to distributor.  Distributor replaced everything in the drive system but could not get it to push though a board while taking a decent "bite". 

That is when dealer called another person he sold one of the same model to.  That person told him that they only used it for light finish cuts, because it would not drive on heavier cuts.  Dealer refunded purchase price.

I personally think there MUST have been a setup problem or a bad variable speed drive.  I did not get to spend any time alone with the machine, to see if I could "talk its language". 

The same person who got refunded on the planer has an extrema SLR and jump saw.  They seem to work fine with no major problems. 

2001 LT40HDD42RA with lubemizer, debarker, laser, accuset. Retired, but building a new shop and home in Missouri.

Ironwood

I think what I would do, if you don't / aren't willing to "buy a pig iin a poke" (sometimes you luck out sometimes not) is to look for an older machine that you know the folks will let you run it see it operate, and talk to the guy who does their maintanence so to speak. If you buy from a reputable reseller, like ,well look around, I wont mention any here. But they are out there, share your concerns. Let them know your concerns and ask for a money back guarrentte if you are not happy. The folks who will offer this will be selling machines at retail market prices, the up side to the higher price will be that most machines will have been "gone through" and checked out. I would not recommend many of the new machines, I have little experience with them, and many DON'T impress me. Go for heavy SIMPLE machines, less parts, less to go wrong. The Powermatic 225 is a good choice, ANY Olivers are good, the 299 comes to mind as does the 199. The Yates B series are good, Sniff around the OWWM.com  site a bit, get on their .org chat room. There are more , I can't think of now.



  Ironwood
There is no scarcity of opportunity to make a living at what you love to do, there is only scarcity of resolve to make it happen.- Wayne Dyer

Norwiscutter

Reid,

Are you of the opinion that the new olivers are quality machines as well? Or are they grouped in with your acessment of most of the newer planers?

Thanks for the great information by the way.
Si vis pacem, para bellum.

jason.weir

Here is a nice 24" Oliver - shipping might be prohibitive..

http://www.owwm.org/viewtopic.php?t=27432

-Jason

Norwiscutter

Jason I can't get in there without setting up an account. Can you give me some specifics?
Si vis pacem, para bellum.

jason.weir

I've copied the ad - in a later post he indicated he would pallet the planer and get it to a freight depot.  I know of this guy but don't know him personally, actually I'll be down at his place this weekend picking up a 20hp 3phase motor... Its located in NH.  His email address is bill@williamthomas-furniture.com

-Jason

Quote
As some of you have guessed, I am selling my Oliver 199 planer, ca. 1927, ser # 34443, 24" wide, with sectional feed, three knife gibbed cutterhead. I just finished putting new bearings in the cutterhead, and replaced the motor bearings just a few hours of running time ago. This is a belt drive machine with a 10hp 3ph open frame motor. It comes with a dust hood and 7" blast gate. There are three sets of knives with it.









I am asking $2500 for it. I can't get involved in shipping it since I don't have a fork lift, and my tractor isn't heavy enough to lift it. Pick up is in Rindge, NH. Any other arrangements would be a matter of negotiation and possible extra expense.

Bill Thomas


Ironwood

The "NEW " Olivers are NOT what the old ones where. The name was sold to someone out of Seattle, Wa. They are imports, of what quality I do not know, so group them w/ the rest. As far as the Oliver above, looks fine, The 2 Oliver 199's I have sold where newer, one being an absolutely cherry late madel "red tag" which I sold for $3200 as I recall, the other $1800(needed painted) . I will PM with the nations Oliver guru and you can ask him about this older model. The table appears to have little wear ,as the original grind marks are still visible. It certainly should be considered.

Ironwood
There is no scarcity of opportunity to make a living at what you love to do, there is only scarcity of resolve to make it happen.- Wayne Dyer

Norwiscutter

Jason and Reid, Much thanks.  ;D
Si vis pacem, para bellum.

Norwiscutter

Should I consider to the powermatic 160 to be in the same boat quality wise as the 180 version? I have found a couple that might merit consideration.

Thanks again for all the help.
Si vis pacem, para bellum.

Ironwood

I don't know what to say about the 160, I haven't had one. Certainly would be a solid infeed to my knowlege. Also, the Oliver's I had were  399's NOT 199's sorry, Chuck H. straightened me out on that one, so many machines so little time.  ;D

Ironwood
There is no scarcity of opportunity to make a living at what you love to do, there is only scarcity of resolve to make it happen.- Wayne Dyer

Kelvin

I've seen two different powermatic planers go for about $1200 locally at auctions with knife grinder attachment. If i were to ever have a straight knife planer it would have to have a grinder with it.  I bought a 50's vintage Powermatic 221 or something 20" planer w/ a new byrd head and new 10hp head motor for $2700 on ebay a couple years ago.  Very nice, and after planing would for what seems eons i'm still on the first edges of the carbide. 

If anyone is looking for a nice planer i tell them to wait and find one at auction.  Another interesting one i just sent my friend to was a 18" Delta wedge bed planer 5hp for $650 near me.  I would check on auctions and wait.  Stick with ball bearings, there are plenty out there and no need to mess with babbit.  I'd buy used, you can set ebay to notify you of any planers up for auction in a given radius you are willing to drive from your house.  They will let you know when something comes up.  You'll spend half the money you have allocated unless you get something newer.

Good luck,
kelvin

Ironwood

Kelvin,

Have your buddy check the bull gear that redirects the table lowering mechanism on that wedge bed, they frequaently go bad, I believe it is bronze or brass. That is the weak link in that machine. 

Ironwood
There is no scarcity of opportunity to make a living at what you love to do, there is only scarcity of resolve to make it happen.- Wayne Dyer

Ironwood

Met an ole timer 92 years young, used to come to our place back in the 1940-1970's to "fix" the horses in what is now my woodshop. Neat guy, and sharp! I stopped by to ask about some logging near by and he said he needed t oget out his Oliver planer, and generator to plane 5 boards for a a friend's wife. Seems his friend died while waiting to get the boards planed, and DANG GUMIT he was still gonna gettem done for the widow. Gotta love that. Anyhow he IS my new buddy in the nieghborhood. So, his Oliver is exactly like the pictures above. Neat stuff, he takes it to the local tractor club days and planes wood for "show", he just leaves it bolted to the trailer and away he goes. Needless to say, his boards got planed at my place. He was fun. He kept saying "this just how people USED to do things" as he looked around at all my projects and resourcefullness. FUN! I think I kinda put the wind back in sails as far as "us younger folk being handy". His father was a local blacksmith, he learned the trade as well, you should have seen his face as I identified his father's anvil as a Peter Wright with in two minutes of seeing it. It was was one of my "personal treats" to myself, that is indulging myself the time to spend with him and show him around and sharing each of our "treasures". I told him in the end that he was going to pay dearly for having me plane those boards, "you gotta come tell my 6 year old some good stories about his homeplace". There is some good history here, our property was the site of the local slaughter house and bone grinding and fat rendering plant around the turn of the century. He knew all about the father dieing in the slaughter house in 1918, and one of the four children killing herself in our house, after the mother died here of natural causes (three deaths right here on our place) I need to get some more details, these are the only stories he NOT allowed to tell my son.

        Ironwood
There is no scarcity of opportunity to make a living at what you love to do, there is only scarcity of resolve to make it happen.- Wayne Dyer

Norwiscutter


I ended up finding a 399D from a guy named Robert Ivens in Milwaukee, and picked it up today.  All i can say is that if any one is in Milwuakee with time to kill, this is a must stop by kind of place.  Robert Ivens Machinery Company deals in all kinds of used woodworking and metal working equipment equipment. After stareing with my mouth open for about 30 minutes at the oliver 299 that he had just taken into the shop, I made the hard decision to go with the 399 because I felt that 1) the space/ weight issue of the heavier planer, 2) my wife would be very happy with me if I was able to come in under the approved budget rather than the usual 20% over.  ;) That being said however, if any one is looking for a beautiful 299, his asking price of $3500 is an absolute steal in my mind.

Anyways, I spent 3 hours talking with Mr. Ivens and making the decision between a mint powermatic 160 with grinder or the 399 I went with. He let me demo the the planers on site and offers a 90 day money back guarantee for whatever reason. I honestly am glad that my wife and kids were sitting in the truck waiting for me and that i didn't bring a trailer becuase the inventory was incredible and I would have spent way to much.

After loading up the planer and blower I bought, it was off to American Rotery in Port Washington where I picked up a 10 horse converter and 3 phase panel for the new shop. These also are great people to work with and make a great product.

I think that the 399 I bought will be the perfect product for my application and situation. That being said, I think that 299 was possibly the most beautiful machine I have ever scene.

Thanks to every one here for all the help.

Si vis pacem, para bellum.

Norwiscutter

Si vis pacem, para bellum.

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