Alright All You Swing Bladers

[Fla._Deadheader]

Educate me. In case you haven't read it yet, I posted in "Andy builds a Mill" thread, about my possible Dual-Purpose Sawmill, to include a Swing Blade set-up. Lets have all the pros and cons. Also, where you buy your blades, and ANY other ideas or advice or "if I had one, I would", comments. Lay it on me !!!!
  Anybody got a gearbox laying around?? High speed?? Won't take much to get this going !! : ;D

[Tillaway]

What do I know? ;) ;D

If I could buy one and could get anything I wanted.

12" cut in one pass.

72" log diameter capacity, we get some big ones around here.

40' cut length.

Log dogging system.

Ability to dog multiple small logs <12".

Toe boards, one log ability would be sufficient.

Production frame similar to Peterson or Brand X.

Bandsaw carriage for frame with 50" or better cut capacity to use for slabbing and specialty stuff.

Blade sharpener attached.

Options

Electric motor.

Abilty to add power head travel, blade flip, and board drag backs.

Laser system?

Big shaper (router?) type thing for cutting curves for arches.  Maybe a verticle bandsaw for the same purpose. I dunno. ???

Deck (screen) to walk on for ease of movement.

The stuff I listed first is what I would want to cut around here.  Needless to say portabilty is not really something I would be looking for around here.

[Fla._Deadheader]

(^@$^)^$&^&^^%  Stinkin Keyboard !!
  As I was typin, Before I was rudely cut off;  
  Piece a Cake, Till.  : : :D :D :D :D
  What I would really like to know is, How do the swing bladers cut several 3½" X 12" cants out of a large log with a blade that reaches 8" into the log ??????

[KiwiJake]

PETERSON ASM (automated swing mill) patent pending.

Board drag back or forward (while it cuts the next board in the same process).

Blade flip at the flick of a switch (unique non-hydraulic 100% lock type system).

10" capacity single run (double width 20" boards in two runs with out moving or entering the milling area).

Complete Electric setworks for all sizing.

Automated carriage feed.

Clip on slabber with 50" throat capacity (Automated, this is a good one as it's hard nacker using a bar).

Can dog 3-4x 12" logs at a time.

Standard 1.6 meter log diameter.

1x hand carried power pack for carriage so portabillity is relatively similar.

Missing the lazers and a few misc others but it's almost got you covered tillaway.

Check out the video clip on petersonsawmills.com (automated preview).

[Vermonter]

fla_; The 3.5" is the thickness, once you cut one, you can drop down for the next one.
ASM;  I have seen a bit more video than the website has, and this thing is indeed impressive.
Petersons is also working on filling a container with WPF's and ATS mills to the U.S., talk to them if you or someone you know is interested.
http://www.petersonmills.com

[Fla._Deadheader]

Andrew, if 3½" is the thickness, and the log is 20" dia. How do you get the 12" cut, without taking side lumber down to 12" cant?? There would be 1 beam on the side that you can't get ????

[hiya]

Harold;
I am working on plans to make a saw with a horz. blade. It will be like a swing blade only not swing up to the vertical position. I will put it on the other end of my band saw to do the slabs, I will just row the log like the with the band. I finaly got my band saw going I took the trans axel apart and made something that looks like what you  have.

[Fla._Deadheader]

Where's the pics ???? :

[hiya]

Been looken at cameras. I took some with a instant camera but the resulation us so low on the computer they look like they went through the wash.

[ADfields]

Harold, why do you need it to swing?   I think a 2 or 3 blade setup like a M/D would be less trouble to build.   Fixed drive train looks a hole lot less trouble then one blade swing up and down.   To me the reason for the swinger mill is so a guy can move it in and out of remote woods so it's made as light as they can get it but you have a trailer to pack the stuff in the M/D type mill.              
Andy        

[KiwiJake]

Swingers cut faster under the same horse power because there is only one blade being powered.
" can double cut 10x20" boards
" can cut 10" vertical and 10" horizontal (deeper cuts).
" thin kerf
" feather boards.
" can release tension in a log easily by cutting verticals first.
" can cut as long as trees can grow
" can be set up any where
" can quarter saw equally
" don't need to turn the log to get good grade recovery
" achieves all this with out waisting a single run (ie returning to make the next cut)
" ultimate flexabillity in the cutting process
" (and they are light enough to be carried into the bush)

Just some extra points to maybe why a swinger is coool.

[Fla._Deadheader]

OK Jake. So far, the largest blade I can find is 21". I've never seen a Swinger, so, how do you get a 10" cut with a 21" blade? Isn't there some kind of collar to bolt the blade to??
  The reason I want to do this, I THINK, is so I can cut this DanG hard Aus. Pine. I figure I can interchange the Band head with the Swinger head in about 2 hours.
   All I would have to build is the Cantilevered swing frame to hold the Sawhead. It would have an attached horizontal feed and the 90° swing bracket. The engine would be interchangable with the band head, 4 bolts.
   The mill already has the power feed, and up-down. A dog system could be devised to fit over the log stops and one to fit on the clamp. No need to re-design those things.
   A drag back would be added, but, I use an offbearer. The logs are not really big,(30") or smaller, so, don't need the lighter main frame work.
  I can't see a big deal with mounting the gearbox. It would just swivel 90°, and still be in alignment with the engine pulley?? Seems pretty easy to me ??

[Vermonter]

Fla_;
One way to get that other cant is to spin the log.  When we say you don't have to spin the log, it doesn't mean you cant  :D
On one super big log I posted a picture of a few months ago, I double cut from the top, squared the edge, and flopped it down counter-clockwise.  This left a finished edge on the left side, so pretty much the whole thing ended up as 1" x 16" boards.  Slower for this operation? you bet.  But, the log was too big to move very far, and I couldn't have put a trailer mounted mill into the backyard where the log was, especially one that was long enough for a 20' log.  I also couldn't afford a hydraulic mill that was big enough to lift and spin a log of this size.  
I don't get a lot of these logs, but the mills around here don't take them anymore, and there is a lot of board footage in them.  I just got another one this weekend, and the price was right.
I seriously considered building a swinger, but buying one that existed made more sense to me.  There is a bit more complication than a band mill, but looking at your mill, I suspect you could handle it.  Has woodmizer ever hassled you for use of the cantilever idea?  I would doubt it would be an issue, but just wondering.
Another point over the MD, (which is actually a really nice mill,)the swing mill allows you to cut wood in both directions, so there is no "backing up" or return, but the blade is engaged on the return.  

[Fla._Deadheader]

Andrew. Really appreciate the input. Why do you think that it would be more complicated to build a swinger??
  WM had a patent on the cantilever. It may have expired (17 years), but, no one has said anything. If I went into production, that might be another story, but, I believe the patent is a moot point??
  I realize turning the log is an option on my mill bed.
  The MD mill cuts a 4 sided board on each cut, so, I don't think a swinger has an advantage there.
   I would think? that if you make a 6" horizontal cut with the swinger, then you could make 1" vertical cuts forward and back, correct??
   What is the kerf size on your mill blade??
  Could you explain or furnish a picture of the blade collar on the shaft, and if the blade has countersunk holes for the bolts, so it has a clean surface?? That would help a bunch.
   Thanks

[Vermonter]

Let's see, I'm not trashing the MD, cause all mills have their niche, but I can't let the "no advantage" comment go without a polite answer  ;)  I think the MD would be great for someone who did this more full time than I do, could hire a helper or two, and could move around to larger jobs than I do.  I think that would justify buying one.  I just couldn't afford the investment.
The MD cuts 3 sides at a time, not 4.  This needs a lot more moving parts than a swinger.  MD is also trailer mounted.  The kerf size is also less, as a soldered carbide tipped blade has a thinner kerf than a replacement claw (although you can get the claw type blade for the Petersons, and I'm not really sure if MD makes a soldered blade, as I have never seen one on the 12 or so MD's I've looked at).  
On my Peterson, you can cut either 1 x 6 or 6 x 1, makes no difference, you can also raise the carriage on an accurate index, so you can saw 6 x 1, raise and cut a 4 x 4  and a 2 x 4 (lowering another notch or two to make up for kerf) and then cut 1x6 again.  This is what makes it possible to quartersaw.
Kerf size for the 8" cut is anywhere between 5.0 mm to 6.0mm, you choose.  I run 5.5 mm for general purpose, most of the hardwood millers go for the 5.0mm.  Doesn't seem like much, but is easier on the miller.  The loss to kerf more than makes up for itself in easier sawing, lower blade cost, being able to cut dirty logs, and less time spent sharpening or changing blades.  About the only thing I notice about the kerf is that I have a marketable sawdust, as it is mostly shavings and the horse folks love the stuff.  It's not like I lose very much, as I pick up quite a bit of lumber in the taper of a log, something that many folks with edgers can't do.
Yes the blade has countersunk screws and locknuts.
Why do I think it is harder to build one?  The pivot and drive are not the biggest complication, but that you will need to make an up/down like you did on your mill, but you will also need a side to side scale and apparatus as well.
Any chance you might make it north a little bit?
Hope that helps,

[Fla._Deadheader]

Thanks again, Andrew. The moving the blade in or out will not be difficult. I am more concerned about getting the blade to accurately meet in a cut from either side of the log. How smooth is the cut with a Swinger?
  You are correct about MD cutting 3 sides. I was referring to the fact that with each trip forward and back, both MD and a swinger will produce a finished board, so there is no real advantage, in that respect. I try to not find fault with any mill, other than the fact that some will do things others can not. If a mill works well, that's great.
  An MD would be nice, but, I have all the makings for doing the swinger, at a considerable savings, using my bed.
  I figured on using my Honda 24 HP on the swinger attachment. I have found a gearbox that is rated at 18 HP.
  How hard does the engine work on your swinger?? I realize that you can push into a log and bog down nearly any engine. How does yours fare and what size engine do you have?
  What was your reference to "up north" about ??

[Vermonter]

The 24 has lots of power, which is handy with a full 8" cut.  They are also spec'ing the 27 Kohler (until Honda goes bigger with their GX6xx range).  The main reason for the power is speed, as I tried the 13hp 8" in Bangor and found it cut well, just a bit slower than mine.  Peterson offers upgrades for any mill, so some folks buy the 13 to get started (and I don't know anyone here that has yet to upgrade).
By up north, I mean that I don't know anyone in FL that is heavily using their Peterson, but I know some folks in SC and Maryland that are really producing.  Is there anybody down there that I don't know about? Please reply.
I thought it might help if you saw one in action, that gives a better idea of reality than a shootout or video.  Most of the owners that I know are really knowledgeable about other mills, as most folks tend to research a lot before buying.
Also, do some math on your gearbox and clutch size to optimize blade speed, and remember to calculate that at the peak of the power curve rather than top speed, so that you can increase torque enough to reach optimal tooth speed at the motor rev that you are most likely to cut at.  I'm not sure that I explained that well, but if you design for top speed of your motor and your motor bogs slightly, you won't saw as fast, where if you design it right, it will spin a bit slower and maintain that speed.
As far as finish, I posted a pic a while back for Arkansawyer's competition that was 1/32" full length, with a beat up blade.  It is comparable to most mills, much smoother than an older circle, but flatter than most others.  To me, flatness is more important than smoothness.  It's kind of  hard to see the finish without feeling it for yourself, hence, the "up-north" comment.
Thanks for the chance to answer questions, I did not mean you were "badmouthing" a mill, but it's awfully hard to use the kind of sarcasm I like on a forum without offending someone.  Good thread, good questions, thoughtful remarks, thanks.

[Fla._Deadheader]

Andrew, is there a Dealer for the east coast, or any way to find swing blade owners, that you know of?? How did you obtain yours??  I would like to see one in action, for sure.
  I am running the Honda at 3200 RPM. It will maintain that speed well. You can tell by the sound of the Band Blade that it doesn't slow much, unless it is really dull or being fed too fast. Usually, that is when the blade will wander, for me.
  Can't think of any more questions, unless someone else has some input.

[Paul_H]

A swinger has a smoother finish,somewhere between a circle and a band mill.A MD,or a Mighty Mite will adjust to log taper.A MD will match a swinger on the VG.

We had a swinger come and cut up some Fir for us early last Spring.It did a nice job but the carbide didn't like the grit in the bark,and he didn't want to cut anymore.The stellite teeth the MD uses are quick to change,and or sharpen.

The other thing I noticed was he needed a off bearer because of the ties and timbers.On the MD I can cut a 6x8 x20',the dragback puts it on the rollers and I can start the next cut,then flip the 6x8 onto the pile and be ready for the next one to come off.
That being said,the swingers are a nice mill.I was really considering buying a Peterson before we bought our used MD.

Good Luck with your project Harold.I'm looking forward to seeing it's progress. 8)

[Percy]

I have worked alongside of a couple of "swingers" in the area,both Lucas 8/25 and am generally impressed with them. With a bobcat/forklift/tractor, you can make alot of lumber in a day. Making 12 foot 2X6's out of WRC(big ones) the boards were comming off at about 2 a miniute for a while and dodging defects was easy for the operator. I was,however not impressed with the "wide" boards(over 8 inches) they always had a ridge on them where the two cuts met. The one Lucas operator has since teamed up with a nother mill(LT40 Super) and when they are cutting hardwoods(Birch and Alder) they usually park the swinger as its no match for the bandmill on the grade cutting. When cutting the bigguns, its usually the other way around. Like Arky, Id sure like to get one as its the right tool for alot of jobs...So many toys, so little time....

[ADfields]

  You are correct about MD cutting 3 sides. I was referring to the fact that with each trip forward and back, both MD and a swinger will produce a finished board, so there is no real advantage, in that respect.  

A M/D can bring back 2 finished boards on some of it's trips up and back!

What I was looking at is if you want to go swinger head on your saw bed you need to come up with some trick stuff to make it work like you want from what little I know.
  
#1 is a way to swing the blade and gearbox 90 degrees on the dot every time and a gear box that can oil at 90 degrees out of level?  

#2 You need to do that at the other end of the mill from your control station so you need a gear motor or what have you for that, or walk down there? ???

#3 you will need to lock the blade in the up and down so you need a servo to open and close the locks, or walk down there? ???
 
#4 the head rig will need to be shifted at the other end of the mill as well or are you walking? ???

#5 you will need to see the setworks from someplace to know what you are up to, right?   More walking? ???

With 2 or 3 fixed blades like the M/D you send the head down and back to your end of the millbed before you need to change things.   That puts it right in front of you with little or no walking and you can just turn a simple hand crank to slide the headrig over, like the up/down crank on a LT-15.   To power 2 blades from the Honda you have should be workable or what about a 12 horse lawn tractor motor to power the smaller blades and have no gearbox at all?   Can you tell I have put a bunch of thinking on this before you brung it up? :P :   I got nothing against swingers and would love to have one but for what you are up to a fixed looks better to me so y'all tell me what I'm not seeing hear??? :P???
Andy

[BW_Williams]

Harold, log handling of a WM with a swing blade?  Right on!!!!  I wish you weren't 3000 miles away.  One caution I can think of is you have to ensure the blade will not be physically able to contact the dogs.  Stops on the head or something.  I would like to put a laser on mine but don't have the time, cause I'm sawing as fast as I can find logs and not keeping up with orders!  Good luck, BWW

[Fla._Deadheader]

I was figuring on using a screw type actuator for the 90° swing. Run it stop to stop. It can't move with pressure on the threads, as it's geared.
  The head- side movement is easy enough. Just like the movable blade guide on a bandmill. Electric, again, rack and pinion, like the MD travel.
   I saw mostly 16' or shorter, so, seeing the settings should be OK, OR, a large dial with hands would be easier to see.
  Someone on the Forum was gonna design their own setworks. Who was that masked man, and, has it been accomplished???  That would be perfect for this set-up.
  OK, any more comments?? I'm not taking all this input lightly. I bounce things off you guys and then respond to your suggestions. If something I have figured won't work, let me know, and WHY. I like to know your reasoning for why you like or don't like something. Gives me something to study on, to see if I can overcome the problem.
  I plan on calling some gear companies to check on the oiling thing in both positions, for the gearbox. I had thought about installing a hose barb into the gearbox, and adding a small tank above the gearbox, to have it FULL all the time and allow a place for heated oil to expand into??

[KiwiJake]

Down drag of a blade is substantial! Good luck with the thread actuator idea (either two slow with a fine thread or not strong enough with a course thread, vibration will unscrew anything). ADfields is right. There's a real mix you'll need to come up with :P :. Eg lucas on there 8" has a strut to hold the blade... They have some kind of secondary locking mechanism because the strut just won't do it, also the handle extends out to give it real leverage when flipping.

You would probably be better off sticking with technology that is well known like a twin blade or band saw unless you have hours and hours of free time to really do some research and development. Or you could buy one that's already got all the features from Peterson. But good luck with your venture.

[ARKANSAWYER]

  I to have thought of putting a seperate carrage on my mill with a swinger head.  I hate to say this but it would be better on a 4 poster as the weight has to travel out across the bed as the cut progresses.  This is basicly like a Brand X mill.  It would be nice to have the hydralics and have a swing and band on the same mill.  I could park one head at the end of the mill and use the one I want.
  Next thought was to put a slabber on like the Peterson has.  The weight would stay on the side and I could slab logs up to 5 ft across and then when I got down to size I could put the band into play.  That would do me more good then a swing blade.  Just a thought.
ARKANSAWYER