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sliding barn door construction

Started by ljmathias, March 31, 2008, 05:35:23 AM

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ljmathias

This is kinda of topic for this forum but I'm not sure who else to ask.  I'm working on a fairly good sized barn for sawmilling and timber framing- engineered trusses are 56X60 and sit on 12' walls 30' wide.  This gives me a 30X60' enclosed area for timber framing and work in general with two 12X60' shed-like wings on both sides.  Beauty of this design is that the wings don't have to have posts (although I'm putting some in at various locations for added support) and I have most of one side dedicated to the sawmill and side-door for bringing timbers inside the enclosed space.  I also have a 12X16' opening on one gable end for equipment access and repair.  Problem is this: I've never built a sliding door this big before and I'm stumped on how to go about it.

Here's my thoughts on options.  Option one: put up the 32' of box track, put up the top of the door with hangers installed and build the door down from there adding vertical studs for hanging support and horizontal girts for screwing metal siding to.  Option two: build the entire door on the floor of the barn and lift it into place somehow, probable using a combination of front end loader and sons strong arms.

Option one I can do more or less by myself (sons and sons-in-laws all have full time jobs that keep them tied up all week and most of the weekend- can't get them away from their families for extended help time (and don't want to really- they should spend off time with them)).  Option two will require a concerted 'raising' as it were and considerable difficulty it seems to me in lining up the hangers in the tracks or inserting the hanger bolts into the top of the door.  I guess inserting the hanger bolts into the door makes the most sense but this requires a coordinated alignment and gradual lifting of the door up into place.

Anyone done this who's willing to share their secrets for success?  I'm open to any suggestions or comments.  Also, I'm not sure on design.  The instructions from National (company that makes the rails and hangers) indicate two main designs but with no comparison of pros and cons: one involves a door that is just one 2X6 thick (frame is 2X6's laid flat with vertical and horizontal boards tied together with strongtie type of metal T's and L's I guess.  The other design involves two layers of 2X6 with a half inch piece of plywood between, making the door more sturdy but much thicker and much, much heavier.

Question on design options involves weight and inertia- weight to lift into place and inertia on starting and stopping it on opening.  Any with experience on either of these designs, or something better than these?  I've thought about several other options- 2 2X4's with 1/2" ply between with a 2X4 attached perpendicular to strengthen but haven't seen this in the company literature as an option.

Thanks for your help on this.

Lj
LT40, Long tractor with FEL and backhoe, lots of TF tools, beautiful wife of 50 years plus 4 kids, 5 grandsons AND TWO GRANDDAUGHTERS all healthy plus too many ideas and plans and not enough time and energy

Faron

I build mine on sawhorses and set them in place.   You can buy aluminum door sides and bottoms that work very well.  The sides are a channel.  They are full length for the door, and the 2 x4s fit inside them and are secured by screws.  Use a 2x6 at the bottom. The bottom piece  covers it, and has a shelf for the metal to sit on.  Below the metal is a flat area designed for a roller to keep the door in place while it is open, and being opened.  Install a bracket to hold the door at the other end to hold it  while it is open.
We built five for our sawmill building.  One 14 by 16, two 14 x12, and two 14x10.  I think we transported ours outside with the forklift, then set them in place by hand.  Place a couple of blocks on the ground to get the door close to the right height and use a bar to jack it up.  One guy on a ladder guides the rollers into the track, as two others lift and move the door at his command.  The biggest issue is not scratching the barn siding, if you have metal sides.
The aluminum parts are not cheap, but well worth the cost, I think, in strength and also making the door lighter.
Be sure you get the tapered side track rather than the old style flat bottom track.  It rolls easier and does not collect dust.
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for dinner.  Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote. - Ben Franklin

ljmathias

Wow, Thanks, Faron, exactly what I needed.  Now the follow-on questions- where do you get the aluminum door framing materials, Lowes or special order?  Also, do you have any pictures (I hate to ask because I know it takes time, but as the saying goes here, we do love pictures!)  More questions later maybe after I locate the door framing.

Thanks again.

Lj
LT40, Long tractor with FEL and backhoe, lots of TF tools, beautiful wife of 50 years plus 4 kids, 5 grandsons AND TWO GRANDDAUGHTERS all healthy plus too many ideas and plans and not enough time and energy

moonhill

Here is a totally different solution.  Aircraft hanger doors.  Sorry I don't have a link.  They bi-fold up and act as an over head door on the outside of the building.  Mine are 30' x 16', one on both ends of the 60' buiding.  Tim B.
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Faron

We bought ours from a local building supplier.  Lowes or HD may have it, I don't know.  I will get some pics for you.
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for dinner.  Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote. - Ben Franklin

Dale Hatfield

Im with Faron. Thats the best way to put one together. If you get it all laid out You can build it hanging , just make sure that its all square before you hang the metal
My problem with building them on the ground is machines will usually cause some kind of damage. 2 their is usually a lack of lifting hands on site when ya need them the most.
Game Of Logging trainer,  College instructor of logging/Tree Care
Chainsaw Carver

Bibbyman

 

Mary and I have made 5 pairs of sliding doors for the sawshed.  We get a little better each time.  We put up the tube and hardware.  Then we build the door frame "on the ground".  We use the log deck as a work table. We built them out of ERC to cut down on weight (we don't have pine - besuides, cedar does not warp or srink.) We install the roller hangers to the frame but leave them loose for final adjustment.  Then we used the Terex to lift the door fame into place.  We wiggle and giggle the rollers into the tube and then adjust the door for height, etc.  Then we put the tin and trim on the door.

We've always work together to hang and panel the doors but the two key points are... we don't put the tin on until its hung and we use the Terex to hold the door frame in place to install it in the tubes.
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Sawing since '94

HOOF-ER

I build the frame, hang and put the tin on after,just like Bibby. I built a set of doors for a large pole barn and used 2x4 on edge ( so the door is 4 inches thick instead of 1 1/2")  special ordered the aluminum channels from tin supplier. Much stiffer heavier (not weight) doors that way if this method is used on a large door the 2xs will sag in the middle be sure to square them up when putting the tin on.
Home built swing mill, 27hp Kawasaki

Woodchuck53

I work by my self 90% of the time so had to build mine lighter. I frame both halves out of 2x3 rough cut. I cut the ends to total length and lapped them on all corners. The doors are 16" so built both 6" wider to over lap jamb opening. Took scrap 1/2" plywood and glued screwed 15 degree gussets in all 4 corners. All inter locking pieces were also plywood reinforced. Hung the doors, plumped and squared with the rollers and track. Then nailed precut siding to match the board and batten layout of the building. Made a latch for each side and a drop bar for the middle. Whole thing is well with end the weight for the rollers to carry. In fact my 8 year old grandson closes them all the time for me. Have a good one. Chuck
Case 1030 w/ Ford FEL, NH 3930 w/Ford FEL, Ford 801 backhoe/loader, TMC 4000# forklift, Stihl 090G-60" bar, 039AV, and 038, Corley 52" circle saw, 15" AMT planer Corley edger, F-350 1 ton, Ford 8000, 20' deck for loader and hauling, F-800 40' bucket truck, C60 Chevy 6 yd. dump truck.

ljmathias

Hoof-er: thanks but I'm not quite getting it.  You order the channel from a supplier (who?) and that's for the end pieces or the girts?  Just one 2X4 top and bottom?  Why not two or three- one like you describe and two plus a 1/2" ply in between for eliminating sag?

Woodchuck53: now you're talking about what I planned to do but didn't have all the pieces in mind.  You put the gussets on the inside face with siding on the outside?  Each door is 16' wide or the two together, making each one 8'?  how many girts do you use- 24 or 32" on center?  Any other uprights for support in the middle?

How do you all air-seal the ends, if you do?  I keep trying to visualize a 1" overlap of two boards or posts, one on the door and one on the frame, that meet up when the door is closed to cut air flow around the ends.

Thanks, all- finally coming together in my head (dense and slow so it takes a while).

Lj

Checked into metal door frames on line- only quote so far is over $1100 just for the frame and shipping.  That includes just two channel ends and 7 girts that form the top and bottom plus five spaced in the middle.  Also included are the rails and hangers, but you supply the siding.
LT40, Long tractor with FEL and backhoe, lots of TF tools, beautiful wife of 50 years plus 4 kids, 5 grandsons AND TWO GRANDDAUGHTERS all healthy plus too many ideas and plans and not enough time and energy

Faron

I took some pictures yesterday, but haven't processed them yet.  I will get them for you.  The system I have is two side channels and one bottom piece.  You supply the 2x6's for the top and bottom and how ever many 2x4's you need for nailers.  Not cheap, but certainly not $1100.
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for dinner.  Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote. - Ben Franklin

stonebroke

I built a 14 by 16door for my shop. Use 2by4 on edge. I put polycarbonate on it instead of wood so I would have more light also it is not nearly as heavy. Use national's track with the built in weatherstripping it is much more rigid. Put the track up on a 2by 6 or 2by 8 lagged into the building. Also use national's bottom door track and their inside latches. I built mind as one door. One less crack to worry about.


Stonebroke

HOOF-ER

If I remember  it was from a amish machine shop. He sells tin ,mostly seconds and most of these companies have the aluminum extrusions for the bottoms and sides of doors. Don't know where he gets it from , sorry. The upper hanger has to be made up like you said , like header so your hangers are solid. 2  2x's with 1/2" between then 2x (or ply) on the bottom of header so it is solid for the bolt heads. The nailers on the rest are just  one 2x4 on edge for the 3 1/2'' thick door. This is a much sturdier door than standing all the nailers on edge and having a 1 1/2" door.
The aluminum extrusion on the bottom has a track for small roller to keep the door from swinging when open. The extrusions where the doors meet (If you are using 2 doors for large opening) fit one into another for a nice tight fit
Home built swing mill, 27hp Kawasaki

SwampDonkey

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Don_Papenburg

My Advice it that you use CannonBall or Combo track .  It is a round tube track that is self cleaning !  No flat bottoms to collect gunk. The extruded frames are nice .  makes for a finnished end before you start.
Frick saw mill  '58   820 John Deere power. Diamond T trucks

Woodchuck53

Evening Purvis. I have a lot of scrap flat belting around my mill. An old circular operation has a lot of treasures according to my wife, anyway a 3" pc. is flexible enough to open and close the doors with out any problem. And they just lay up against the frame edge to keep the critters out. I really don't notice a little wind seepage. Of course we live in the south and don't have near the extremes our friends up north do. Works well. I made the frames 8' 6"x 12' with a 1x6 screwed on one door vertically for a lap in the middle. Yes all the gussets are 45 degree in the corners and on the 2 horizontal pcs. roughly a diamond shape flush with the edges. Glued and screewed will last with the staining on the siding I do every time I restain the rough cut cypress on the house. Pine and cypress matches just fine for me. Hope this clears up my design for you. The doors aren't that heavy. Have a great one. Chuck
Case 1030 w/ Ford FEL, NH 3930 w/Ford FEL, Ford 801 backhoe/loader, TMC 4000# forklift, Stihl 090G-60" bar, 039AV, and 038, Corley 52" circle saw, 15" AMT planer Corley edger, F-350 1 ton, Ford 8000, 20' deck for loader and hauling, F-800 40' bucket truck, C60 Chevy 6 yd. dump truck.

Faron

In looking the doors over yesterday, I remembered we had built the frames, then put the metal on after they were hung, like the Bibbyman's did.  I have hung complete doors, but it takes more help than two or three guys. 
If you have a  farm type building supply business near you, they should be able to fix you up with all the pieces you need.  You do need to do some cutting and fitting to make the frames fit and cover like you want at the bottom of the door.
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for dinner.  Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote. - Ben Franklin

Kelvin

I've built them like Faron.  Local building supply has the aluminum pieces to make nice light doors.  I made mine in two pieces over a 16' opening.  They sell track this way, and you can make two lighter doors.  the slide past each other and stack up on the end.  mine was for lack of space where they were ending up.  The aluminum edges are nice.  Anyone who sells metal barn siding has got to stock them. 
KP

TblRxDave

I'm glad this subject came up. I'm at the point of constructing sliding barn doors for my barn/garage/workshop. My siding is green SYP board & batton. My plan is to asseble the doors the same way that SwampDonkey has done in his reply#13. My question is sould I shiplap the boards and let them shrink or just butt edge and caulk the gap after they have dried? I've been pricing the slider hardware and seems that it's all over the page. Any sujestions will be helpful.

Woodchuck53

Morning guys, just a thought on the way to nail wood siding. We build  board and batten on every thing here so it matches. We nail up 1x12's with a 3/8" shim between it top and bottom to keep the critters out. Then make nice 3 or 4" battens nailed good on one side. This lets things move as they dry  and prevents cracking. After a couple seasons during regular maintance staining what not then tack it down a little and your done. Works well with long needle pine and cypress that I use. I've been working on my mill rebuild nonstop 14 and 14 , you guys are giving me the itch to make some sawdust. Chuck
Case 1030 w/ Ford FEL, NH 3930 w/Ford FEL, Ford 801 backhoe/loader, TMC 4000# forklift, Stihl 090G-60" bar, 039AV, and 038, Corley 52" circle saw, 15" AMT planer Corley edger, F-350 1 ton, Ford 8000, 20' deck for loader and hauling, F-800 40' bucket truck, C60 Chevy 6 yd. dump truck.

ljmathias

Just came across a site that has great information- the Canada Plan Service at the address below:
http://www.cps.gov.on.ca/english/planmenu.htm

Look under "building engineering" for plan 9341 which details a barn sliding door.  Lots of other great information at this site and well worth bookmarking/saving.  I actually found this side over two years ago and then just forgot about it- had already downloaded the door plans but couldn't find it on my computer; so much for modern technology (or is it modern ability to multitask: the ability to do several things at the same time, all badly).

Lj
LT40, Long tractor with FEL and backhoe, lots of TF tools, beautiful wife of 50 years plus 4 kids, 5 grandsons AND TWO GRANDDAUGHTERS all healthy plus too many ideas and plans and not enough time and energy

thecfarm

That's just about how I do mine B and B too woodchuck.I use 10" boards and 4' batten.Looks real good.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

OneWithWood

I used the plans lj linked to.  To keep the doors light enough to hang by myself I left the skin boards off until the frame was in place.  Then I used 1/2" sassafrass to keep the weight to a minimum.
One With Wood
LT40HDG25, Woodmizer DH4000 Kiln

jpgreen

Here's a thought....

Why not make your own track out of pipe or box tubing?

I'm envisioning say 3"-4" rectangle tubing or pipe cut longer than the length you need for a track. Clamp a straight edge to it for a guide so you can cut a nice 1/2" slot out with your cutting torch, or plasma cutter. Make the track pipe longer than needed so your don't have to cut clear to the ends.

Before you cut, pre-drill holes every 16" or so (above where your internal rollers would run), and install a bolt and nut on the 32" holes so when you cut, it can't warp out of shape.  Then use the other holes to lag screw or bolt onto your building.

You could fabricate rollers with 5/16" diameter eye bolts, and the appropriate sized wheels that fit inside the pipe, bolted to each side of the eye bolt.

Maybe pre made track and hangers are cheaper than this.  I don't know as I've never bought them.
-95 Wood-Mizer LT40HD 27 Hp Kawasaki water cooled engine-

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