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Caught in a Crack ?Bottle Necks? Getting more efficiency with Swing mills

Started by fencerowphil (Phil L.), March 29, 2008, 06:57:35 PM

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fencerowphil (Phil L.)

I am sure that many have faced this issue in various ways
and solved it in as many differing ways:

You realize that you need to get the jobs done quicker.  In
other words, some of the jobs are taking too many trips to
the site with too many gallons of driving fuel being burned.

What was your "bottleneck" and what did you do about it?
What was the solution to a higher productivity?

Phil L.
Bi-VacAtional:  Piano tuner and sawyer.  (Use one to take a vacation from the other.) Have two Stihl 090s, one Stihl 075, Echo CS8000, Echo 346,  two Homely-ite 27AVs, Peterson 10" Swingblade Winch Production Frame, 36" and 54"Alaskan mills, and a sore back.

logwalker

I try to only work at home. I know that isn't possible for a lot of people but it is what worked for me.
Let's all be careful out there tomorrow. Lt40hd, 22' Kenworth Flatbed rollback dump, MM45B Mitsubishi trackhoe, Clark5000lb Forklift, Kubota L2850 tractor

fencerowphil (Phil L.)

I see that rollback flatbed among your equipment list.   
Bet that helps get some logs to your place, huh?
Bi-VacAtional:  Piano tuner and sawyer.  (Use one to take a vacation from the other.) Have two Stihl 090s, one Stihl 075, Echo CS8000, Echo 346,  two Homely-ite 27AVs, Peterson 10" Swingblade Winch Production Frame, 36" and 54"Alaskan mills, and a sore back.

logwalker

Yes, Phil. I pulled in 5 loads of D.Fir and Cedar with my KW on Wednesday. I will custom saw them for a new neighbor. I live on an island that requires a ferry ride to get on/off. He had an offer of about $300 by the time they were hauled to the mainland. Log prices are very low right now. I am hauling about 16,000 lbs. of logs per trip. I am guessing that it hauls a little less than half a log truck. Joe
Let's all be careful out there tomorrow. Lt40hd, 22' Kenworth Flatbed rollback dump, MM45B Mitsubishi trackhoe, Clark5000lb Forklift, Kubota L2850 tractor

Skip

I use my F-350 to get mill and supplies to the site then commute in KIA Sportage easier on gas but not more productive. My other solution is to hire some help , if it can eliminate a couple trips to site it is sometimes worth it . Only other solution is to raise prices like everybody else  :( .

Bibbyman

Years and years ago I started a topic on "How to increase your band sawmill production".

We got quite a bit of input.  I sifted out the tangents and sidetracks to food and such and put the rendered down information in the Knowledge base.  There may be some ideas there that can help you.

https://forestryforum.com/tips/tips.cgi?display:1048166748-10029.txt

Wood-Mizer LT40HDE25 Super 25hp 3ph with Command Control and Accuset.
Sawing since '94

fencerowphil (Phil L.)

Thanks, Bibby

By cutting the rabbit chasing, you probably saved me a couple hours reading, huh?

Since I am using a swingblade without the advantage of hydraulics, I will throw in
one thing that has helped us.   Since we usually depend upon the customer for log
handling,  we now set up a simple log deck.  Log pegs with V-notches hold the rails for
the deck.   With a carefully done set-up, we have actually had three layers of logs
on one deck.  That lets us cut for at least a full day without having to be slowed by
lack of log handling help.  Carefull chocking of the logs is a must.

To emphasize:   The real advantage of this is to never have to wait on a tractor to
move more logs during a given day.   The disadvantage is the considerable danger of
multiple layers of logs, unless you 1) stay out of the log rolling path, and 2) continue
to re-chock layers of logs as they are rolled.

As system to stop these high energy logs is a must, when you roll one off the top!

Phil L.
Bi-VacAtional:  Piano tuner and sawyer.  (Use one to take a vacation from the other.) Have two Stihl 090s, one Stihl 075, Echo CS8000, Echo 346,  two Homely-ite 27AVs, Peterson 10" Swingblade Winch Production Frame, 36" and 54"Alaskan mills, and a sore back.

Dan_Shade

my highest productivity jobs are when I go in and logs are stacked over my head, but those multiple layer stacks do scare me.  I keep the log pile as stable as possible by nocking the logs down every chance I get, but you have to keep your wits about you...
Woodmizer LT40HDG25 / Stihl 066 alaskan
lots of dull bands and chains

There's a fine line between turning firewood into beautiful things and beautiful things into firewood.

fencerowphil (Phil L.)

Skip mentioned hired help.  He is on target, of course.

One good off-bearer increases my production by about 50% - well worth the money!
When cutting really heavy stuff, you need two helpers, but they have to be a matched
team.   If one of the pair drags along, then the other guy is hamstrung.  My best helper is faster
alone than when his "buddy" comes along to "help."

Phil L.
Bi-VacAtional:  Piano tuner and sawyer.  (Use one to take a vacation from the other.) Have two Stihl 090s, one Stihl 075, Echo CS8000, Echo 346,  two Homely-ite 27AVs, Peterson 10" Swingblade Winch Production Frame, 36" and 54"Alaskan mills, and a sore back.

ErikC

  I run a log deck at times, with small logs. I call it a "hillbilly infeed", its just a couple logs 20' long about 6-8" on notched blocks. I never tried more than 1 layer though, it holds almost 1/2 days sawing as it is.
It is faster than firing up the loader, unless the logs are fairly big. I can cut about 10-12 more logs in the same time when they are 10-12". It moves things along a little. I confess to using the loader if they are heavy enough to need a peavy for rolling them though. I guess this saves on fuel costs as well, doesn't it? :)

Erik
Peterson 8" with 33' tracks, JCB 1550 4x4 loader backhoe, several stihl chainsaws

fencerowphil (Phil L.)

I suppose that here the technical term for our log deck
set-up would be "redneck deck."  Our last job had a good
bit of 20" to 28" stuff 22' long - the two-peavey stuff.

Phil L.
Bi-VacAtional:  Piano tuner and sawyer.  (Use one to take a vacation from the other.) Have two Stihl 090s, one Stihl 075, Echo CS8000, Echo 346,  two Homely-ite 27AVs, Peterson 10" Swingblade Winch Production Frame, 36" and 54"Alaskan mills, and a sore back.

fencerowphil (Phil L.)

Maybe we can get some more particulars from swingmillers?
Bi-VacAtional:  Piano tuner and sawyer.  (Use one to take a vacation from the other.) Have two Stihl 090s, one Stihl 075, Echo CS8000, Echo 346,  two Homely-ite 27AVs, Peterson 10" Swingblade Winch Production Frame, 36" and 54"Alaskan mills, and a sore back.

scsmith42

Phil, I have 66' of track, and will run a three person crew.  One sawyer, one off-bearer, and one person setting up the next log in a different location along the track, helping with the big boards, moving the slabs, etc.

My sawmill is set up adjacent to my kiln, and we off-bear from the sawmill directly onto the kiln carts.

When sawing for volume, I'll have at least three sets of bunks, and some of them are holding two logs side by side.

The sawmill runs almost constantly, save time for water, fuel and sharpening.

Scott
Peterson 10" WPF with 65' of track
Smith - Gallagher dedicated slabber
Tom's 3638D Baker band mill
and a mix of log handling heavy equipment.

LOGDOG

Do you have any pics of your set up Scott? We could use some eye candy.  ;D

LOGDOG

fencerowphil (Phil L.)

Scott,


I like it.   Yep, I LIKE it!
What kind of dogging/bunk set-up do you use?

I have only set up that way one time.  Since I saw mostly portable,
the time to set-up "full size" you might say, is only worthwhile when
I have enough logs at that location - a rare situation.  (We spent about
15 man hours to fully set up that one time, due to the double sets
of triple bunks.)

The option of permanent saw set-up is more and more appealing.

Phil L.
Bi-VacAtional:  Piano tuner and sawyer.  (Use one to take a vacation from the other.) Have two Stihl 090s, one Stihl 075, Echo CS8000, Echo 346,  two Homely-ite 27AVs, Peterson 10" Swingblade Winch Production Frame, 36" and 54"Alaskan mills, and a sore back.

scsmith42

Landon, sorry - no eye candy today!  I'll try to take some pix the next time that I'm milling multiple logs (probably next week).

Phil, I use the Craig Blake "Captain" style of log bunks - ie 4" x 6" square edge notches cut into some 8 x 8 bunks - no dogs. 

My least favorite part of milling is the time spent on log setup; this is one area where I envy the bandmill guys with their log decks and hydraulic log turners!  One of these days I'll probably take the time to incorporate some type of log deck into the Peterson (that allows me to quickly and hydraulically set the log height, placement, turn it for the best opening face, etc).

Scott

Peterson 10" WPF with 65' of track
Smith - Gallagher dedicated slabber
Tom's 3638D Baker band mill
and a mix of log handling heavy equipment.

hansbaba

I was just thinking the same thing today Scott. It seems that the bunks are the weak point with the swingmills. I admit they work fantastic, but compared to a log deck like on a bandmill it seems a bit rough.

Does Captain's set up have notches cut in the 4x6 that the 8x8's actually set in.
My main issue is I am always setting up in the woods. I always make the mill pretty close to level but, I wind up having to accomodate the 8x8 bunks on all kinds of 2x4, 4x6, or 1x material to get the log just right. Once I'm set up its alright. but it seems for just about every log I need to shift a bunk an inch or two this way or that. This means down on the hands and knees in the saw dust.
Also, I usually saw 16' lengths so I put an extra bunk in the center. I set the log in the two end bunks and then have to place the 3rd bunk in the center each time. I then have to use a block or two and a wedge to put a little pressure under the middle.
I want to emphasize, I'm not complaining here as the bunks do work great. It just seems with all the saw heads on this site, a better more universal system could be created without having to have all the hydraulics and steel, etc.

scsmith42

Hans,

The "Captain's" setup is an 8" x 8" bunk, with a notch 4" deep and 6" wide cut into it for the log to sit in.

Some bunks would have a pair of notches cut into them, allowing you to place two mid-sized logs adjacent to one another on the bunks.

If you have to space the bunks upward, usually you would stack 2 x 10s or 1 x 10s underneath them in order to obtain the proper height.

I too use additional bunks on longer logs.

Scott
Peterson 10" WPF with 65' of track
Smith - Gallagher dedicated slabber
Tom's 3638D Baker band mill
and a mix of log handling heavy equipment.

fencerowphil (Phil L.)

I have used the notched bunks - even with a combination of sizes
which permit three logs at the time, but I more often use wedge dogs.
These little wedge blocks are simply screwed to the wooden bunk with
a T25 3"X9ga. screw in each one.  By using smaller or larger wedge dogs
and by varying how close they are spaced,  a log can be adjusted for
taper very well.

They are made of Pecan or Hickory or Live Oak.  Maple would also
do the trick, but we don't have the hard Maples down here.

Will try to get a pic or sketch.  Can't seem to get my cheap (old) cad
program to talk to anything up to date. >:(

Phil L.
Bi-VacAtional:  Piano tuner and sawyer.  (Use one to take a vacation from the other.) Have two Stihl 090s, one Stihl 075, Echo CS8000, Echo 346,  two Homely-ite 27AVs, Peterson 10" Swingblade Winch Production Frame, 36" and 54"Alaskan mills, and a sore back.

fencerowphil (Phil L.)

 

Here is the dog I had described.  Big end goes against the log.  Notice that the screw is lower than the
biting corner of the dog.  (Helps save them carbides!)  The hard Pecan, etc. holds up well.  What
wears ours out is not the log, but the blade cutting into them when we go down low to get that last board.

We keep a plastic tub near the mill.  It has two sizes of the Torx deck screws,
a couple dozen various sizes of these dogs, and a DeWalt rechargeable drill.

We can either "guestimate" the log and pre-set these on each bunk, or we
can clear the bunks in short order to reset all of the dogs.  If a log has considerable
taper,  I often slap a shim board on top of the bunk on the low end of the log,
then screw the dogs to that shim.  The other option is to use larger wedge/dogs
and move them closer together before the log is rolled in.   Laying a scrap down
often helps to roll the log into the "jaws" of these dogs.

Phil L.         P.S. to hansbaba:   A pair of these would work well on that middle
                                                bunk you mentioned.  Good problem solvers.
Bi-VacAtional:  Piano tuner and sawyer.  (Use one to take a vacation from the other.) Have two Stihl 090s, one Stihl 075, Echo CS8000, Echo 346,  two Homely-ite 27AVs, Peterson 10" Swingblade Winch Production Frame, 36" and 54"Alaskan mills, and a sore back.

hansbaba

Phil,
Those dogs seem like they would work pretty good, but it still seems like a lot of time(energy) screwing and unscrewing for each log.

Scott,
you mentioned putting some 2x or 1x under the bunks to adjust for taper or just get the log adjusted right. This is exactly the situation that I am trying to improve upon.

Here is a typical example: I have a log say 16' long, 24" on one end and 28" on the other. Before setting it on the bunks with a loader, I eyeball the bunks and try to adjust one end or the other to accomodate the taper and to center the log. After placing the log on the bunks (hopefully without crushing my rails.) I inevitably have to do some fine tuning. Sometimes I'm lucky and just a little shove 1" or two with the logrite takes care of it. Usually however, its get the ol hi-lift jack, jack up an end of the log and either place or remove a 2x or 1x block. 
All this only takes 5min or so but it is tedious.

My current idea is to have the typical 8x8 bunks, with 4x6 beams running perpendicular to them. either the 4x6 or the 8x8 will have a notch cut to sort of lock the 4 pieces of wood together. at all 4 corners I could put some sort of jack screw that can hopefully quickly raise or lower each corner independently. The biggest downfall I see to this is how to accomodate various lengths of logs??  Also, its more stuff to load into the already packed truck!

hans.

ErikC

  Our method on smaller logs is this-We use a 6x8 bunk with a square notch cut out, About 4" wide by 2 deep. It holds rock solid. This sits on a couple 4x6 blocks, one under each end with the wide side down so it won't tip easily. It puts the logs a little higher, which is easier to work at. When we want to adjust the log side to side a little, the 6x8 slides across the 4x6 blocks if you bump it, and the notches always hold tight. A 2x6 on top of the 4x6 blocks at either end can adjust for taper and takes a couple seconds to slip in. It is rarely needed though. While I count the lumber from the last log, the offbearer can roll in another from the "hillbilly infeed", measure the distance from rail to center of the log and adjust it if necessary, and when I am done counting it's time to saw again. About 1-2 miniutes between logs if you are cutting small stuff. Of course bigger logs take two people to handle so this is only real efficient on the small logs.
Works good for us.

Erik
Peterson 8" with 33' tracks, JCB 1550 4x4 loader backhoe, several stihl chainsaws

fencerowphil (Phil L.)

hansbaba,

Twenty five years ago I had the bright idea of building my own veneer press,
so I ordered a bunch of veneer press screws - 1" diameter acme thread with
a forged threaded insert and a 1-1/2" square shoe on the end.   The crank handle
is a forged handle.  I bet your idea could be handled by a couple of these.

We normally arrange our logs with the big ends all turned the same way.
That lets us anticipate the taper to a degree by leaving one bunk as the low
one and one the high.  If there is a middle bunk, it is kept about the same amount
"low" as the low end bunk.  Also,  these wedges are most often used for logs
that yield 300 bd. ft. each.   For small logs we use the notched bunks with the
three sets of notches.  Just roll 'em and pound 'em in with a whack of a sledge
hammer.

I am amazed at how similarly we are approaching the bunk issue.  Still want faster.
I have imagined going more elaborate, but as you say, how much do you want
to add to the truck AND add to the set-up time.


Redneck Deck with toss-away bridge shown.  Protects the rails in fine style!
Phil L.
Bi-VacAtional:  Piano tuner and sawyer.  (Use one to take a vacation from the other.) Have two Stihl 090s, one Stihl 075, Echo CS8000, Echo 346,  two Homely-ite 27AVs, Peterson 10" Swingblade Winch Production Frame, 36" and 54"Alaskan mills, and a sore back.

fencerowphil (Phil L.)

 
                         54"          39"             19"
Distances of notches from
the right hand bead of
Peterson track

This is the basic idea of the triple log bunks which we have used at times.
The idea was to have a couple of smaller logs to the left and a bigger notch
for logs up to 22" or so on the right.  Notches were roughly 6", 7", 8" wide
and about 3" deep.   I did cut some "liners" of pecan to serve as replacement
corners for the notches, but don't think I ever used any.

This does keep the saw in wood more, but I still like even better Scott's idea of the
multiple SETS of bunks with an extra long track set-up .  On the other hand,
the triple-log bunk system above is not hard to repeatedly set up and tear down in
portable applications.  If you don't have any big logs, you can install a hardwood
strip in the right hand notch to reduce its width.

Phil L.
Bi-VacAtional:  Piano tuner and sawyer.  (Use one to take a vacation from the other.) Have two Stihl 090s, one Stihl 075, Echo CS8000, Echo 346,  two Homely-ite 27AVs, Peterson 10" Swingblade Winch Production Frame, 36" and 54"Alaskan mills, and a sore back.

solidwoods

Quote from: fencerowphil  (Phil L.) on March 29, 2008, 08:18:16 PM
I see that rollback flatbed among your equipment list.   
Bet that helps get some logs to your place, huh?

Crunch the #'s for setting your mill up at home.
Then run the business as you or customer brings the logs to the mill.
Yes it requires equipment but while you are fetching logs, a hired person is milling making you $, and your equip at home can have other efficiencies helpers like edger or my favorite a band resaw (cut double thick and feed it to a resaw = almost 2x the daily output)

If you go with a knuckle boom truck and trailer, the knuckle boom can be used at home to load.
jim
Ret. US Army
Kasco II B Band mill
Woodworking since 83
I mill & kiln dry lumber, build custom furniture, artworks, flooring, etc.
If you mill, you'll be interested in some of my work in one way or another.
We ship from our showroom.
N. Central TN.

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