Just terrible news.....

[DouginUtah]

I guess my point is, that the "extra stuff" is actually coming from the air and is actually already there before the fuel is burned.

Exactly! The oxygen in the air combines with the carbon in the gasoline when it combusts in the cylinder. And here comes that nasty CO₂ out the tailpipe.  :D

[Gary_C]

Doug is right, although I don't know if it is really an important number. Carbon dioxide is 27.27 % carbon by weight so 19.2 lbs of CO2 from the combustion of gasoline would contain about 5.24 lbs of carbon and that is probably how much carbon is in a gallon of gasoline.

This on the cover of Time Magazine....

The Clean Energy Scam

Do not believe everything you read in Time Magazine. They are using their size and buying power to force their environmental views on all pulp and paper mills. Because of that I have learned to distrust their writings as biased. A good example is found in the cited article.

Corn ethanol, always environmentally suspect, turns out to be environmentally disastrous.

No facts to support their claim are offered.

[Gary_C]

I do feel guilty and ashamed for getting into these discussions on global warming. The truth is I feel they are a waste of time and energy. Not because global warming or manmade global warming is or is not a problem, but because these discussions divert our attention from the real problem. And the real problem is we are burning and wasting energy at alarming rates.

I could take issue with Doug's assertions that we are running out of crude oil, but again that is not the issue we need to be concerned about. We need to find and develop more renewable energy sources, improve our energy efficiency and stop wasting so much of what we have, and get back to building nuclear power plants. The rest of the world including China is switching to nuclear power but we seem more intent on blocking certain countries from building anything nuclear out of fear.

A good example is Friday night on PBS, the program NOW had a piece on the city of Cambridge, MA efforts to reduce its energy consumption. They have tried the walking, biking, and other efforts to reduce vehicle energy consumptions for the past years with no measurable results. So finally they went to a large consulting firm and asked for advice. The city was told that something like 70 % of the energy consumed and wasted in the city was in the businesses and buildings in the city, not in the vehicles. So they started a program to have an energy consulting team that could go to businesses, houses, and other buildings and give them an energy audit with recommendations, price for the improvements, payback time, and a simplified loan application for a low interest loan to do the improvements. This is exactly the kind of efforts we need and there are tremendous improvments that can be made in energy efficiency.

So we need to focus our efforts on energy conservation along with renewable energy sources and stop wasting our time and efforts bickering over trying to predict the future.

And we DanG sure don't need some stupid carbon tax to make progress.   

[Warbird]

ps.  Did you check out or pick up a copy of that book I told you about?  It's worth your while.

After putting in a nine-hour day of mostly hard labor, the answer is NO. I did however, put the reference into my Quicknotes file.

If I suggested to you that you go out and buy "An Inconvenient Truth" would you jump right on it?

---

Respectfully, I ask you for cites to back that claim up.  You might want to look into why they started banning CFC's and the like back in the 70's while you are at it.  I'm quite certain it went far beyond "popular press".

Google is your friend.     ice age 1970s peer reviewed journal

http://www.wmconnolley.org.uk/sci/iceage/

Yes, Google is my friend and you didn't answer the question on the CFC scare.  I'll give you the "imminent ice age" terminology.  So let's call it a "cooling scare", instead.  I like how the guy says, "Naturally, there is a kernel of truth behind it all."  Hmmmm.....

There is a kernel of truth to global warming, too (like..  it's normal!  *gasp*).  Now look at what it has become.  The same thing happened in the 70's, just on a different scale.  Why the difference?  No Internet.  And people have become a lot more fickle.

So we have, just in my lifetime, the whole global cooling scare back in the 70's, the CFC scare (80's?), and now this whole global warming scare (90's to present).  My point is that all of this fear mongering about the global environment is being used to generate (and waste) billions upon billions of dollars.  Further, it is being used to manipulate the public... "Consumerism makes you the devil", "If you don't recycle the way we tell you to, you are bad".  It has practically gotten to the point of: "Just by living and breathing, you are destroying the planet and that makes you an evil virus!".

I'm sick and tired of all the misinformation and general brainwashing.  I'm also tired of all the "PC" crappola and living in a world where my dog, the trees in my yard, and the polar bears at the North Pole all have more human rights than I do.  It's rubbish.

Oh, and no, I will not go and buy Al Gore's masterpiece.  Here is why:  On the one hand, you claim the 70's stuff was "popular press", while on the other hand you are pimping that insipid piece of work.  Talk about popular press...  it doesn't get much worse than that movie. 

I like what this site has to say about Gore's latest rumblings: http://junkscience.com/Greenhouse/index.html.  You might want to read the other postings there, as well.  It's free.  And reputable.

Okay.  That turned into a bit of a rant.  Think I'll sit out of this topic for a while and cool off.

[SwampDonkey]

Doug's formula is certainly balanced, even added the catalyst to the equation, in this case the 0₂, 25 moles worth. ;D


Moles, vial nasty little creatures aren't they?  ;)

Yup, they teach chemistry to foresters also.

[snowman]

Just to illustrate how absurd these algore types can get, they now blame cow farts for global warming too. It's just another way to attack another evil industry. They seem to forget that pre man, buffallos roamed the continent in herds so vast they they were uncountable. Guess buffs don't fart huh.

[Max sawdust]

Methane that is it 8)
That is the solution to the energy crisis.  Eat more beans ;D  We can design self propelled vehicles.  Sit down and fart to go....The more you fart the faster you go .  Of course this will free up all the ethanol for drinking, so we can be drunk and not imbarresed by farting in public. ;)

The earth has appeared to warm in the past, ice caps were smaller and vast oceans covered much of the planet when the climate was warmer.  I doubt that was caused by Dino's burning fossil fuel while driving around in their Suvs :D  I understand methane was one of the suspected sources for those early warming periods.

My opinion on the buffalo's.....I suspect their are more cows now than buffalo's then. 
One goggle search said that in 1840 there were 60 Million buffalo. 
Another search said there are 1.5 Billon cows now!!!!
Look at the human population.  In 1900 the earths population was around 1.5 million in a hundred years it became 6 billion!   

(I AM NOT saying we do not need those cows to feed the population or anything bad about cows ;D)
smiley_airfreshener

[SwampDonkey]

This thread sure makes for some great reading, I don't know how anyone could hold their coffee and soda for long.  :D :D :D

[Bibbyman]

Just to illustrate how absurd these algore types can get, they now blame cow farts for global warming too. It's just another way to attack another evil industry. They seem to forget that pre man, buffallos roamed the continent in herds so vast they they were uncountable. Guess buffs don't fart huh.

I'm doing my part...  I'm eating as many cows as I can... :D

[snowman]

On 2nd thought,maybe these algores are right. Maybe the dinos farted themselves out of existence.I may be about to change sides here :D

[johncinquo]

I'm doing my part to keep grain prices high. 

If you start feeling all wound up over this topic, your all welcome to stop in and have a refreshment and relax a lil. 

[stonebroke]

As a beef farmer I thank you Bibbyman!

Stonebroke

[snowman]

I've recently been diagnosed with the gout and can't drink beer anymore >:( Life can be cruel!

[Gary_C]

This thread sure makes for some great reading, I don't know how anyone could hold their coffee and soda for long.  :D :D :D

Ya, but I think I've about run out of gas. Trying to predict the future climate based on cow farts is just a little too much for me. So I think I will just go down in the basement and get some of that Michelob and put it back in the refrigerator and see if I can contribute something to global warming. Spring just does not want to take hold here, so I'd better try to help it, even in a small way.  :

[Warbird]

You guys made me laugh.  Thanks.  ;D

[DanG]

Just a couple of thoughts before I go back to work; We are burning the big pottery kiln again this weekend, and I'm about to go back after having manned the night shift.  They are no doubt well into the second cord of wood, by now.  That probably accounts for several dozen carbon atoms that have been married to an equal number of O2(oxygen) molecules, and were exhausted into the atmosphere as CO2.  The same principle applies no matter what we are burning, like gasoline in an engine, etc.  It isn't the petroleum that creates the CO2, it is the combustion.  The trees are gonna love us for this, as we are putting more carbon into their environment for them to store as they grow.  They will glean the carbon from those molecules, then release them back as O2 molecules.  It seems that this simplified version of the concept is what most folks are missing.  None of this stuff is being consumed, it is just being borrowed, and then passed on to be borrowed again by some other user.  That next user may borrow it the very next second, or it may be stored for eons in the form of coal or oil.  The point is though, we are "creating" CO2 anytime we burn anything, as well as when we breathe.  I don't know that CO2 is a "greenhouse gas", or even if that class of gasses really exists.  I do know that Global Warming was a very convenient notion about which to write an inconvenient book.  As far as I know, none of it has either been proven or disproven, so it remains a theory.

My own opinion is that we caused the current warming trend by doing too good of a job of cleaning up the mess we made in the atmosphere, following the big Global Cooling scare. :  Mayhaps we have just returned the Earth to its normal schedule of warming and cooling, after having disrupted that schedule for a couple of hundred years of poor housekeeping.  Maybe so, maybe no.

[OneWithWood]

Wow!  Sorry about the left turn there. . . :D

Let's get back to beer.

Oh, BTW, none of this really matters because all the great forecasters who really know (Nostodamus, the Mayans, that guy that would go to sleep and predict stuff) all claim the world ends in 2012 so we don't need to worry about all this trivial stuff.   ;D

Might as well spend the time being productive by consuming mass quantities of beer, scotch, and other things proven to be good for you.   8) 8)

[farmerdoug]

I bet there will be alot of bankruptcies in 2013 if the world does not end in 2012. : :D :D

[OneWithWood]

Not to mention some sever hangovers  :D

[SeeSaw]

Well said DanG,

I did view the incompetent truth.  There are many misrepresented facts, and partial truths abound. Even though as you stated not much has been proven or disproven.  I do see someone making a lot of money writing and speaking about it.  Does that make it fact ?????

[sharp edge]

The last time the experts had no one on thier side. This time they have it easy there is a few people on thier side. This is about going from leaded gas to unleaded. Last time the U.S. was the leader, this time foreign countries have to do it.

Are all people that make money bad or just the ones  people want to cherry pick? :

SE

[johncinquo]

Hops he'a.  Hops he'a.  Get em while their on sale and available!   

Gotta keep this on track, of the important stuff! 

http://www.midwestsupplies.com/products/ProdByID.aspx?ProdID=7748
:D

[sharp edge]

I got a mrBeer kit for x-mass, didn't do anything with it yet. Plan to make ethonal for the cars some time. The quicker the better, or might get called developmentally delayed.
SE :