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reforestation and wood heat...

Started by joespruce, March 04, 2008, 06:39:10 PM

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joespruce

Hello Group!

My name is Joe and I am posting for the first time.  I am writing with several questions all of which share a common origin. 

My intention is to purchase some land in upstate NY this year (20 or more acres) and among other things use part of the land to heat my home.  I will be building a very energy efficient house approximately 1000 square feet.  Roughly how much wood do you think I will require? and how do I assess a wood lot to determine what a likely sustainable annual harvest might be?

The other half of my inquiry is in regards to a specific piece of land which I have an interest in.  This land consists of 24 rolling acres with very few trees.  There are trees on the property but probably about 1 acre total.  My question is this, if I wanted to reforest part of the property with native trees in order to have a wood lot in the future what would be involved?  How much work? Cost?  How many years before I could begin to harvest lumber?

Last, I have known people living in rural area who were able to heat with wood despite not having any woods of their own.  To some of you with considerable country experience, is it common practice to allow neighbors to harvest modest amounts of wood in exchange for other goods or services?

I realize that this post encompasses a lot.  I will appreciate any input at all that the members of this forum can provide.

Thanks,
Joe

stonebroke

Where in upstate NY, It is a large and very diverse place. What is the elevation of your land? What are the soil types and how well cared for was it? Is it in the midst of the Adirnodacks or on the lake plain? It makes a big difference in what will grow and how fast. I live in the Catskills.

Stonebroke

joespruce

Stonebrook,
The place I am refering to is in Schoharie County near the Otsego border.  I am not sure of the elevation but I can check the survey tomorrow.  I'll have to wait until spring to have the soil tested but it appears to have been used as hay fields most recently.

Joe

stonebroke

I forgot, Welcome to the forestry forum. What a small world , I live in Schoharie County. I reside on the top of Warnerville Hill just outside of Cobleskill.
wher is the land you are looking at.

Stonebroke

stonebroke

Also in answer to your second question, I let my welder cut all the wood he wants, ity is a very good thing for a farmer to stay on the good side of his welder. I also am letting another friend who has a part  time firewood business start to cut.  You should also check out log length it is a very common practice in Schoharie County.

Stonebroke


joespruce

Stonebrook,
Small world indeed.  The place I am looking at is near Sharon Springs.  What do you mean
log length"?

Joe

ohsoloco

Log length firewood means you would buy a truckload of logs from a logger, and cut and split it yourself.  It's much cheaper than buying it cut, split, and/or seasoned. 

Regarding wood consumption, I live in an 816 sq. ft. home with a full basement.  The woodstove is in the basment, and I rely on opening and closing my basement door to regulate how warm it gets upstairs...no fans or anything involved.  I usually burn between four and five cords a year.

WDH

I think that growing wood on your land and using it as a source of energy is smart and will give you an advantage that the apartment and condo dwellers will not have.  Energy prices in the future will not likely go down; what has gone down in the last 100 years?

It is a long process to reforest and grow a crop of trees to a useful size, so getting started now will be paramount.  You can plant suitable species for your area, and that is the fastest way to go.  Or, you can let nature reforest it naturally, but that will take much more time and the species will be colonizing trees with light seeds that do not produce the most desireable wood in most cases (cherry excepted).

If it is old pasture, you will likely need to rip a furrow about 20" to 24" deep to break through the plow pan created by cultivating the soil.  Ripping will promote better survival and prepare a planting site for your seedlings.  The first year after planting, it is advisable to spray herbicide in a band along the furrows to control the grass that will likely choke out the seedlings.

If you plant them a little thick, then you could plan to begin taking out some in a pre-commercial thinning and use the wood for heating your home in about 10 years or so after planting (maybe more, maybe less depending on your site).  The wood will be small, but thinning will promote vigor and faster growth on the residual trees.

It will also provide you with a interesting and challenging project for your spare time ;D.

Life is short.........Go for it. 
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

beenthere

joespruce
Welcome to the forum.
Good questions.
I'm thinking red maple might grow well in your area...but seeking local forester help would be best to confirm that thought.

A friend of mine figured out that a soft maple plantation would work well in Wisconsin on good crop land, and he would need 6 acres to provide 6 full cords a year for heating his home. I'd take these figures as ball-park guesses but may lead you to asking the right questions of the local experts. He had a good plantation going before being taken by the cancer bug, and not seeing his ideas through to a payoff.

As well, listen to the advice from many experts on this Forum...there is a wealth of knowledge that you can sift through to give you answers.  Wish you well...hope you hang in there and make it happen.  :) :)
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

stonebroke

Joespruce

So are looking up in the hills right next to the county border or are you down in the karst land?

Stonebroke

snowman

Hi joe, my advice would be, unless this land is very cheap or your in love with it for one reason or another, don't buy it. Buy land with trees even if it's dog hair you will have a start. People rarely consider the value of firewood into their land purchase but it can really add up. Lets say you burn 6 cord a year, a modest amount really.At 200 a cord you have made 1200 a year.Subtract that from your land payments and smile. Also your trees grow more every year and before you know it you won't be able to keep up for personel use and youll be selling firewood , maybe even logs. I bought 10 acres 25 years ago that was a mess, so thick with junky missletoe larch you couldn't walk through it and there was nothing that would make a log. I've heated my home all these years cleaning up and last winter logged a couple loads of nice timber to open up my view which I lost as the trees grew. Now I have a beautiful parked out forest with nice healthy trees with a 15"dbh average.Timbered land is a good investment and great fun!

joespruce

Thanks Everyone!
Is $200/cord a reasonable expectation for log length firewood?  How can I find local foresters to speak with?

Stonebrook,
I am looking all over the area for suitable land.  The parcel I refered to in earlier posts is up in the hills near the county line.  If you know of any parcels fro sale by owner I'd love to hear from you.

Thanks for all the information,
Joe

stonebroke

For 200$ a full cord you can buy it cut split and delivered all day long in Schoharie. 100$ a cord in log length is about top dollar. Do you ever get up here? We could go ridding around if you want. PM me.

Stonebroke

rebocardo

Welcome Joe!

> Roughly how much wood do you think I will require?

Assuming you will build a house with a basement and will plan on a newer EPA stove downstairs (that can draw air from outside if needed) near a stairwell so it can draft up by itself with no fan, along with a non-EPA stove (soapstone with a glass door for atmosphere) upstairs in the living area, about four cords of wood should do it.

You can easily burn dry pine in the newer EPA stoves (see below).

> how do I assess a wood lot to determine what a likely sustainable annual harvest might be?

Existing woods = forester. They will be able to tell you how much you have, how much you can take out if you prune what they mark, and how much it will deliver in the future. Also, what to plant and what the likely harvest would be in ten years in pulp.

> I wanted to reforest part of the property with native trees in order to have a wood lot in the future what would be involved? 

Pine, pine, and more pine. It is the only tree with some heat value you will likely be able to use for firewood within 20 years. I would plants 1000s and 1000s of them. As you thin the plantings, you can burn the sticks.

> How much work?

A lot of manual labor.

> Cost? 

Depends if you can get free trees from your state. Many states you can. If you plant it as a forest or use it as farm land, you can get great tax breaks. Pumpkins and blueberries anyone?

> How many years before I could begin to harvest lumber?

20 for pine, 40 for hardwood as a general rule. NY is not the ideal state for fast growing timber, especially hardwoods.

> is it common practice to allow neighbors to harvest modest amounts of wood in exchange for other goods or services?

No. If the person is poor you do allow them to have it for free. If you are rich (or rich enough to build a dream house) and they are poor, offer to buy their firewood or pay them to cut and deliver.

If I was starting from scratch here is what I would do

1) ICF with six inch concrete walls with a true basement.

2) insulated metal roof

3) large EPA wood stove good for 8+ hour burn or a wood furnance that could heat the house with hot water and be a hot water heater in the summer.

4) smaller non-EPA stove upstairs with glass doors

5) geo-thermal heatpump for the heat and A/C system

6) design the house for solar panels even if you do not install them now. design for both roof and backyard.

7) design the house so a well and septic can be added easily later

8) design for rainbarrels and a two cisterns.

9) large exterior garage along with a two car garage attached to the house.

Why? Bringing wood into the house from an attached garage is much nicer then going outside for it.

For the basement heater, you want to store at least 1/4 of a cord inside to keep the stove going for a few days durng a blizzard, without being a fire hazard or bringing a ton of bugs inside to thaw out.

That being said, design the house so you can drive a truck down into or near the basement to unload your wood. This usually means a gravel or cement driveway around your house.

I would design a new house to use as much wood as possible (cheapest heating solution) along with as much solar as possible both for electric and water heating. I certainly would put in common utility stuff where possible (city gas, water, electric) in case I wanted to sell the house.

If I had to spend a bunch of money anywhere, after the two wood stoves, it would be facing the house the right way for solar and a heat pump for geo-thermal energy because the heat pump can both cool and heat your house for cheap. Especially if the pump runs off solar electrical.

Oil, gas, and electric prices are going nowhere other then up$.

bull

fence row or boundry line forestry, is not new........ If you intend to grow for fuel wood, don't waste your money on planting anything.....   Natural regeneration is very fast in the northeastern states and newengland states......... birch and red maple will have small roundwood fire wood with in 5 years, 6-8 years for single split 10 plus years for saleable production during this time other species will show ash,cherry,oak ..... every species has an amount of BTU's as the years go buy and the better hardwoods gro you will have to cut less wood to heat your home...what are your present fence row or boundryline conditions...... Keep maintaining the field and crop it, yourself or rent it out to a local farm.  leave 8-10 of growth off the wall,fence row or boundry line..... in farm speak don't cut the back swath you will be growing trees in no time............... we have about 25,000 lineal feet of stone wall field boundry and we crop firewood within 3 feet of the wall once around the block takes about five years and will produce upwards 5 cords a year  mostly single split or no split 6 inch and under wood. last year I started my 5th trip around,I cleared about 2200, feet and took out 6 cords which i sold...

brianJ

Aww Bull.................Yeah that is excellent advice.   A lot of NY farmers I know would gladly let you keep their hedgerows trimmed back.    In fact hedgerows are my source of 20 cords of wood a year.    Seems I am getting behind at that rate.    Anyhow I been able to work for the guy the past bunch of crop seasons and get to use the loader tractor from time to time as well as oil for the chainsaw

livemusic

Interesting and good info in the thread, and it's 11 years old!
~~~
Bill

krusty

I know a few local folks who will say keep half of what you cut and split on someone elses land. Problem is most times the person takes their half home before finishing it all and never comes back!

John Mc

Quote from: krusty on July 29, 2019, 09:02:11 PM
I know a few local folks who will say keep half of what you cut and split on someone elses land. Problem is most times the person takes their half home before finishing it all and never comes back!

If you are going halves on firewood (one person owns the trees, another converts the standing trees into firewood) the person doing the work is getting ripped off. Around here, standing trees that are going for firewood sell for about $5 - $10 per cord -  maybe $20 if you're lucky.  Firewood cut split and delivered easily goes for $250, and often more than that. Almost all of the value is in the expertise, equipment, and labor used to convert it from a standing tree into firewood.
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

TKehl

Well old thread, but there is interest.

I've always heard 10 acres should easily provide heating for a house.  I think that could be reduced with coppicing or pollarding.

For us, if we know you, you can come cut deadfall free.  150 acres and more rots than is used.  If someone offers to clean up fence rows or shoot some coyotes to, they are very welcome at our place!

Things that get you cut off:
Cutting future sawlogs.
Going muddin'
Your dog is welcome, unless it chases livestock...
Leaving a gate open that was shut.
Shutting a gate that was open.  
Leaving trash behind.
Stealing.
Drugs.
Drunkeness.  (Not a prude, but chainsaws and alcohal don't mix!)

We prefer brush to be stacked and letting us know when you'll be there, where you will be, and when you leave.  
In the long run, you make your own luck – good, bad, or indifferent. Loretta Lynn

BluenoseLogger

The rule of thumb I've seen a number of times in forestry service publications and similar is 3-4 acres of decent woods cover for every sustainable cord. By "decent" we'd mean just that - good drainage, good soil, not a climatic extreme, good forest management practices.

I generate 3 cords a year from one personal woodlot of mixed Acadian (Nova Scotian) forest of about 20 acres, and I've been doing that long enough to tell that not only could I do it indefinitely (while improving the tree growth as I go) but I could certainly up my harvest by another couple of cords, and stay sustainable.

As others have mentioned, always keep your eyes peeled for other sources too. Here in Nova Scotia there are frequently roadside cutbacks to keep power lines clear or to open up sightlines for crossing deer (motorist safety). This can result in long stretches of roadside cut and limbed softwood and hardwood logs, which are generally free for the taking.

I also have local farmer neighbours that clear woodlot sections for new fields. The process starts more with bulldozing trees than it does with any amount of felling trees. So you end up with hundreds of yards long lines of heaped slash. Provided that you approach the job with care, after getting permission, these lines of slash are a source for a number of years of trees that are hanging mostly in the air and seasoning nicely. The tricky bit is that many are under significant tension and/or compression, and you also have got to resist the temptation to clamber up on the tree piles.

If you're planning to do something like this seriously, get a consultation from a local forestry operation, I deal with guys from the North Nova Forest Owners Co-op Ltd for example. Odds are with a new woodlot you'll be managing it, to steer its growth towards something better, and you really want professional advice.
And become familiar with sources like https://ucanr.edu/sites/placernevadasmallfarms/files/76320.pdf, like that link advises don't wait until you've finished your cutting, splitting and stacking to figure out how many cords you have, you should do it before you ever start felling trees.

John Mc

Interesting rule of thumb. I suspect what part of the country you are in has an effect. Some time ago, my forester estimated about 1/2 a cord per acre of firewood per year on a typical, reasonably productive site in our area. I guess our growing season might be a bit longer than yours.

I'll have to touch base with him and see if he has modified that estimate over the years.
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

BluenoseLogger

John McC, I have also read that 2 acres to a cord guideline, along with the 3-4 acres per cord, and some time back I even read a rule of thumb that suggested one sustainable cord per acre from *properly managed" forest.

My gut feeling is that the 3-4 acres per cord is pretty conservative if you have anywhere close to a good woodlot in much of North America. It's absolutely a safe rule of thumb if you are not intending to maximize use of your woodlot, possibly for commercial firewood production, and simply want to ensure you are not over-cutting. My suspicion is that 1/2 cord per acre is potentially doable if the woodlot were managed towards that end. That would mean, conceptually, harvesting ten 6" trees per acre per year, sustainable. I've done a fair bit of personal research over the years, based on forest studies and articles, and adding that to empirical observation of local forests including my own woodlot, I'm quite certain this is an achievable target.

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