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Is too much water possible?

Started by james04, February 26, 2008, 03:32:10 PM

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james04

I am in the process of milling red oak for floor boards and was just wondering if it is possible to use too much water on the blade. In my mind I would think more water would mean more lubrication and longer blade life. However in my very short experience it seem if I use more than a slow drip. A slurry of saw dust is created and goes full circle around with the band and back into the kerf. I noticed I was getting some head shake but was feeding very slow. This was a 15" cant. So I tried some less water and was able to feed a little faster. Not only that but there was not saw dust building up on the band wheel belts. Am I imagining this performance increase?

James
Norwood LM2000   

Tom

The water is to wet the band long enough for the centrifugal force at the band wheel to get rid of the sap and sawdust before it sticks.   Yes you can use too much.  It does form mud.  Sometimes too much will cause the band to hydroplane not ride on the bandwheels.  There is an art to adjusting the water flow to that "just right" amount.   It's difficult for someone else to tell you what is too much because  amount is dependent on sawyer, speed, species and other nonsensical things like the quarter of the moon, or the position of Pices (As the dreamer your key phrase is: "I imagine". )

Usually the best place to start is a slight trickle, just a little more than a drop, drop, but not as much as a pour.

Some woods require a pour and that is dependent on the blade being used too.   Just try to find what works without making a big mess.  :D

raycon

I don't use but a few drops milling oaks at the moment.
The drops come on when I see gumming on the band. Loading a log I'll hit the band with a whiff of WD-40 to clear it. Do the same when taking the band off.

Tom or anyone else. If you're reading this what do you recommend for milling high sap/pitch content wood like tamarack? Band, Hook angle and lubricant? I have quite a few tamarack logs to get through next week. I sharpen my own blades and have the cams for 9 and 10 degrees. Was thinking of drying the 2 other extremes 4 and 12 or 13. Trying the 13 with increased set. Increased to what is the question? (36hp).
Lot of stuff..

Brad_S.

I usually use diesel, but I switch to water for tamarack. And I use plenty of it. Diesel doesn't do much to tamarack pitch, water does but only in large quantity. And still the blade gums up. Pretty wood but a pain to mill. I use a "universal" angle of 10° and have no complaints, never tried other angles though to be honest.
"Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans." J. Lennon

ladylake

Same here, lots of water for tamarack, cuts easy then.   Steve
Timberking B20  18000  hours +  Case75xt grapple + forks+8" snow bucket + dirt bucket   770 Oliver   Lots(too many) of chainsaws, Like the Echo saws and the Stihl and Husky     W5  Case loader   1  trailers  Wright sharpener     Suffolk  setter Volvo MCT125c skid loader

james04

Quote from: raycon on February 26, 2008, 03:57:14 PM
I don't use but a few drops milling oaks at the moment.
The drops come on when I see gumming on the band. Loading a log I'll hit the band with a whiff of WD-40 to clear it. Do the same when taking the band off.

Tom or anyone else. If you're reading this what do you recommend for milling high sap/pitch content wood like tamarack? Band, Hook angle and lubricant? I have quite a few tamarack logs to get through next week. I sharpen my own blades and have the cams for 9 and 10 degrees. Was thinking of drying the 2 other extremes 4 and 12 or 13. Trying the 13 with increased set. Increased to what is the question? (36hp).

I like the idea of the WD40. I am getting some pitch build up on the outside (dry side) of the band. However Norwood advises against the use of any petroleum based lubricants claiming it will degrade the band wheel V belts and cause slipping.

James

ladylake

In cold wheather I run diesel, just a drop every 5 seconds or so. Haven't had any problem with slippage and the belts have been on a long time. A couple of days ago I was running water with a small amount of washer fluid (35 above so no problem  getting it through the pipe) the mill didn't sound right and cut one little wave. I looked at the boards coming off , looked like the water was freezing soon as it hit the frozen log causing the blade to bind some. Switched to diesel and it cut great again, white oak like usual.   
Timberking B20  18000  hours +  Case75xt grapple + forks+8" snow bucket + dirt bucket   770 Oliver   Lots(too many) of chainsaws, Like the Echo saws and the Stihl and Husky     W5  Case loader   1  trailers  Wright sharpener     Suffolk  setter Volvo MCT125c skid loader

bandmiller2

We don't use any lube,mizer lt70 11/2 wm .055 blades,never a problem and its cleaner around the mill.Frank C.
A man armed with common sense is packing a big piece

mike_van

I don't use any lube either, few times I've had some huge pine knots that needed a shot of water, WD40 or something to clean the blade off.
I was the smartest 16 year old I ever knew.

Dan_Shade

I notice my tension dropping way off when I don't use water, do any of you guys that don't use anything notice this?
Woodmizer LT40HDG25 / Stihl 066 alaskan
lots of dull bands and chains

There's a fine line between turning firewood into beautiful things and beautiful things into firewood.

james04

Thank you all for your input. Seems like a debatable subject. I think Ill try a steady drip with a shot of wd now and then.

James

raycon

Normally I use wind shield wiper fluid ,water and pine sol. Every now and then I smoke a band. Happened in Tamarack last time I milled some. Band went South while I was watching the scenery-pitch build up and large hard knot high feed speed.
Tamarack I've been using 10° hook will start there again maybe bumping the set on the second band another .016" to see if anything changes.
Lot of stuff..

ely

james04, i run a lm2000 also and i use the water ,soap, windshield washer fluid, and now even a little pine-sol in the mix. i don't think it helped any adding the pine sol but it is still early in that experiment. i only use the washer fluid in the winter to keep it all fluid. in the summer it is only soap and water.
every now and then i get a particular pitchy pine log and will shut the water off entirely, i keep a pump sprayer setting around with deisel in it, right now it has linseed oil and thompsons water seal in it. basically any petroleum based substance. when the band gets to gathering too much sap i saw a few boards while dad squirts the blade. it all cleans up nice and saws perfect. those belts are cheaper to me if i ever do ruin one with the oil, than sawing bad lumber, and like i say it is only occasionally.

james04

Ely,

You make a good point about the belts vs. quality cuts. By the way. I recall when I used to do pressure washing that the soap would raise the freezing point of the water. I am not sure if that is true with dish washing liquid but, it sure made life though when trying to drag a line around a truck when the black top was iced over with soapy water. Are you using dish washing liquid or some other soap?

James

Tom

Quote from: Dan_Shade on February 27, 2008, 08:10:43 AM
I notice my tension dropping way off when I don't use water, do any of you guys that don't use anything notice this?


losing band tension may just be a matter of heat.  As the band gets hot, it stretches and the tension drops.  That's something to pay attention to on hydraulic tensioners that you don't have to worry about on spring tensioners.


Quote from: raycon on February 26, 2008, 03:57:14 PM

Tom or anyone else. If you're reading this what do you recommend for milling high sap/pitch content wood like tamarack? Band, Hook angle and lubricant? I have quite a few tamarack logs to get through next week. I sharpen my own blades and have the cams for 9 and 10 degrees. Was thinking of drying the 2 other extremes 4 and 12 or 13. Trying the 13 with increased set. Increased to what is the question? (36hp).


I just use water for a lube.  sometimes, when the sap problem is greatest, I use a bit of liquid dish soap.

Rule of thumb, the softer the wood, the more aggressive the blade.  I don't cut tamarack,but, on Southern Yellow Pine, I use a 7/8 pitch with 21-22 degrees of set and a 13 degree hook.  I make sure it is real sharp.

As the wood becomes harder (knots) I lessen the rake to 10 and then, if need be, start changing the set toward 18.

ladylake

Don't know how some of you get by with no lube, I might be able to in some wood but not tamarack or white oak.   Steve
Timberking B20  18000  hours +  Case75xt grapple + forks+8" snow bucket + dirt bucket   770 Oliver   Lots(too many) of chainsaws, Like the Echo saws and the Stihl and Husky     W5  Case loader   1  trailers  Wright sharpener     Suffolk  setter Volvo MCT125c skid loader

Furby

White Oak cuts great with no lube, the the stuff I've cut anyways.
I had a little build up on the blade with White Pine, but I just scrapped it off once in a while, wasn't in any hurry.

ely

james04, i use a liquid soap that we got in bulk somewhere in a deal, i want to say i got it in an auction one time. it was in 5 gallon buckets and looks like the stuff in restrooms. i was bidding on what i thought was a 5 gal. pail and what i bought was a pallett of 5 gal. pails ::) oh well the price was right. we use it for everything from washing hogs down to sawmill lube. great stuff greater price!
i am certain any type of liquid soap will work.

DPForumDog

I think we are using too much water as we have stream of water.   I just read thaw some people say they only allow a  drip every 2 seconds.  That doesnt seem like enough?

What problems would too much water cause?
What problems would too little water cause?

To date we have only been using plain water (no additives)

Thanks
Granny DP.
Granny DP
DP Forum Dog
lumber pro hd 36

Southside

Yes too much water will cause caking of your sawdust.  Are your boards coming off the mill packed with dust?  They should be very clean, just a light tap to knock off anything that is on there.  If you need to use a drywall knife to scrape off every board then the band is not doing it's job.  

The gullet portion of your band traps a pocket of air as it enters the cut, this pocket causes the sawdust to float in suspension and exit the log as the band exits carrying away the sawdust with it.  If you have too much water the sawdust can't float and gets packed onto the surface of the log, more and more as you continue to saw, eventually friction increases and band performance drops off and it may dip, dive, and dodge.  

A fresh log has plenty of moisture in it for the band to perform as designed.  The purpose of water or lube is not to cool the band or help it cut better, rather it is to prevent pitch from collecting on the band, band wheels, roller guides, etc.  When you don't have enough lube on your band pitch will build up on these surfaces and again cause the band performance to drop off, resulting in bands that dip, dive, dodge, and plain jump off.  

You want to see a nice, tight, stream of sawdust still in suspension as your band exits the cut ahead of any guides it may encounter.  The sawdust should look coarse and not fine like flour. If the later then your band is dull or you may have too much water entering the equation.

Using water alone often does not give you the desired results of keeping a band clean.  There is a whole lot to it, and I have tried about every formula out there.  Windshield washer fluid, RV anti-freeze, Pine Sol and dish soap, Cotton picker spindle cleaner, and diesel fuel.  There are pros and cons to each, and some work better than others in different conditions.  It's a never ending pursuit it seems, which has led me to develop a purpose made product that a few guys are testing out for me now since I am biased about how it performs. 
Franklin buncher and skidder
JD Processor
Woodmizer LT Super 70 and LT35 sawmill, KD250 kiln, BMS 250 sharpener and setter
Riehl Edger
Woodmaster 725 and 4000 planner and moulder
Enough cows to ensure there is no spare time.
White Oak Meadows

SawyerTed

When I started sawing I used far more water-lube than I do now. I learned the hard way that the primary function of the lube is to keep the blade clean.

Yesterday I sawed for 4 hours and made nearly 1000 bdft.  I started with about half a tank of lube and used only maybe 3 quarts or so.  I was sawing cherry and walnut so the amount of lube needed to keep the blade clean was minimal. The lube just dripped, no stream.  Most boards could just be bumped to remove most sawdust.  My customer scraped or brushed the rest off but that's just him.  

Sawing pine requires more lube than hardwood in my experience.  For most of my sawing I use Dawn dishwashing liquid and water.  The water needs to be near medium blue (1/2 to 3/4 cup).  

Sometimes a shot of diesel from a spray bottle directly on the blade is needed to supplement the water Dawn mixture.  Occasionally I flood the blade with lube prior to a cut to soften any build up then cut the lube back to start the cut.  Buildup is often gone in the first few inches of the cut.  In the worst cases I keep a long handle scrub brush and will flood the blade and scrub the buildup off the blade.

Too much of anything that cuts build up on the blade is not good for guide bearings.  The same reason mixtures cut build up causes the grease to wash out of bearings eventually.  Other issues caused by excessive lube are caking of sawdust in the blade housings, caking of sawdust on the wheels/belts, clogging the sawdust chute, wet gloves for off bearers and in bad cases discoloration of the lumber.

I've read your other posts and questions regarding blades, staining, finish/quality of cut, @DPForumDog.  I'm just guessing but it sounds like you might be having blade issues and possibly with the set of the teeth?   
Woodmizer LT50, WM BMS 250, WM BMT 250, Kubota MX5100, IH McCormick Farmall 140, Husqvarna 372XP, Husqvarna 455 Rancher

DPForumDog

Thank you so much for such a wonderfully detailed answer.  It was very helpful!
Granny DP
DPForumDog
Granny DP
DP Forum Dog
lumber pro hd 36

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