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Tongue & groove fit

Started by David Freed, February 25, 2008, 12:21:57 PM

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David Freed

     I have always had the understanding that the tongue on a t & g floor was supposed to fit snuggly into the groove to hold everything firmly in place and get a smooth surface. I have a carpenter telling me that it is supposed to be a loose fit to allow a very slight amount of up and down movement. I would like to here your opinions. Thanks,

                                David

beenthere

Snug will be harder to lay (slight warp from wood movement since moulding the flooring), whereas loose will be easier to lay....so, you can take your pick as to the one you want.  I can see the carpenter wanting the "easier" to lay and not being so concerned about the slight movement later on.
  :) :)
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

flip

That's always what I look for in a wood floor, some up and down movement ??? ::) ??? ::)  The wavyness is neat under my feet.  Serious though, sound like someone is feeding you a line of scrappola.  What ever the cutters are set up for is what it should be IMHO. :)
Timberking B-20, Hydraulics make me board quick

David Freed

The knives are what brought this subject up. The set I've had for a while were not quite as snug as I thought they should be, but it was so slight I didn't say anything. I ordered a second set to have a spare set and the fit is looser than the first set on top of being a 1/4" shorter, which means when we change knives we have to reset the fence. I don't think they are being very accurate when they make them. The type of knives I am using is bullnose tongue and wedge shaped groove so installation isn't a problem. I should rephrase my original post also. He didn't actually say he thought the floor should move. He said he thought the 1/32" to 3/64" of slop was alright.

Brian_Rhoad

When the floors he installed start squeeking, I hope his customers force him to replace the floor for free! Thats on of the problems today. Nobody cares about quality anymore. Sloppy work and take the money and run.

Justin L

When I check a short sample, the fit is a bit loose. When I try 3-4' long pcs, it is more snug due to slight bow. I'll measure tomorrow(if I remember:) but I'll bet my tounge is about 1/64-3/128" (OK, less than 1/32) thinner than the groove. 1/32" of slop would be too much IMO.

Mine is also a round tounge with a wedge groove. I set it up so the tounge will hold the grooved pc tight to the floor when put installed- the bottom of the tounge is tight against the bottom of the groove. Not too tight, or the tops don't line up and it's hard to install.

Are you using pairs of knives? If they are missaligned they will make the groove bigger or the tounge smaller. I use a straight edge against the cutterhead to push the knife into place, and check it after they are tightened(mine move sometimes when tightening)

I know you believe you understand what you think I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant! :)

Dave Shepard

I had this conversation last week with a friend who is a carpenter. The groove to tongue was very sloppy. It was v-groove that they were using for flooring, lumberyard said they only carry v-groove, just flip it over for flooring. Quality was poor in other regards, but all that is available. How much cup is normal after running through the moulder? These boards were noticeably cupped. They were white pine. I got the usual statement that paying a little more for a better product would be worthwhile to him, saves time in the long run. I have talked to many people that feel the same way about not being able to get the quality they want, sounds like there is a void in the market. ;)


Dave
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

David Freed

Justin,

     I am using pairs of knives in a Logosol side head. There are holes in the knives that slide onto pins on the head. If the knives aren't right, you can't move them. These knives are not from Logosol either. They don't have this type of t&g.

Cedarman

On our moulder, small Dominion Midas 2x6, I can adjust the knives to where ever I want them.  It takes about an hour to tweak the knives to get just the right fit.  For flooring, I want the boards to fit snugly, not where you have to hammer them together, but also not movement up or down.  A short 1 foot piece should go together easily, but not require pushing hard.  For paneling, I let them be just a tad more loose.  Also, your knives will wear on the edges, just a little.  This will cause the groove to get a little narrower and the tongue to get a little wider.  Check your boards periodically during the run to make sure things don't change.  A diamond hone is very helpful.

I am in the pink when sawing cedar.

David Freed

With our first set of knives the flooring slid together very easy and there was no noticable movement on pieces longer than a foot or two. Since we sell long length flooring ,that was ok. This second set of knives is not as tight, and I tend to be picky about things like that. I am trying to sell better quality flooring than a lot of the stuff on the market now, but a lot of the time when someone sees that quality means more money, you never hear from them again.
I realize that the knives will wear and change the fit slightly, and we do spot checks as we are running, but it hasn't changed enough to cause a problem. We hit a staple and had to switch knives and that is what started the whole problem. I just assumed two sets of knives with the same part # would be identical.

raycon

I was told .020" cutter tolerance was to loose.
Trying .005-.010 next run. Which won't be for a bit--P&Z issue to resolve.
Lot of stuff..

jdtuttle

As a carpenter & one who has installed a few T&G floors it has been my experience a little play is a good thing. I have seen floors installed that were tight on installation. On one repair job I did the boards were not allowed to acclamate properly before installation. After a couple months down the boards acclamated and all the T&G joints buckled. If there was room for expansion (loose joint) the flooring would have been OK. Total tear out and re-do.
jim
Have a great day

woodworker9

I hate to contradict anyone here, but I'm going to have to.  On a T&G floor, you want the fit to be snug.  It should need to be tapped in, but no pounded in.  If the tongue is skinnier than the groove, and allows for vertical slop, then the quality of flooring is poor.  The whole purpose of only nailing one side (tongue) is that the groove will hold the adjacent piece solidly to the floor. 

The floor is going to move across the width of the boards.  There is nothing you can do about that.  They're wood!!! ;) ;)  That's why it is so important for the flooring to be properly acclimated to the room it's being installed in.  There are a million and one shortcuts to take by flooring installers, and most of them lead to trouble.  If the joints are loose, you're going to have a squeeky floor that talks to you for the rest of it's life.  A properly acclimated product with a proper installation with tight tolerances leaves a professional job that will last a long time.   Anything else you're being told is all a bunch of balogni.

BTW, I installed hardwood floors professionally for about 12 years.  Not that it matters....
03' LT40HD25 Kohler hydraulic w/ accuset
MS 441, MS 290, New Holland L185

Justin L

Wouldn't it just be easier to pull the staples out first? Sorry :) I planed a 4 foot board for a guy lately, made my $5 bucks & then noticed a line on all the boards from then on...

I use carbide for T&G since the runs are usually longer and I don't want to have them wear out before the run is over, or sharpen them each run. That may not have helped the staple though...

I'll try again TOMORROW to measure my T&G fit :-[

I think I'd have the send the knives back if they don't fit right

To defend my honor(or pride, whichever) I do want the tongue side of the flooring to hold the groove side down tight to the subfloor when being installed. Maybe I need to look a little closer at it...

In a way, the bottom part of the groove is a tongue that fits into the space below the tongue. :-\
I know you believe you understand what you think I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant! :)

Cedarman

On our moulder, I run 2 knives per head.  I have the knives that make the groove to make it smaller than the knives that make the bead.  If I left them this way, I can not slide the two pieces together.  I can slide one of the groove knives off center to make a slightly wider groove.  With trial and error I can make the fit too tight, snug, or loose.  Snug for flooring, lightly snug or a hair loose for paneling.  It is amazing what .01" will do for snugness.

The guy that make our flooring back in 92 made it way too snug.  They had to be pounded together which slightly raised the edge.  We had to sand the floor a lot to get it right.  But we have never had a squeak either.
I am in the pink when sawing cedar.

woodworker9

Cederman

You are dead right about the .01 measurement!  I'll tell you this from experience.  The last thing in the world you want to do when installing T&G is to need to use a shoulder plane on every stinkin' tongue to get it to fit without splitting the groove on the adjacent piece.  I finished that job out of sheer stubbornness and personal pride.  Cost me an extra day of labor.  And, I never bought flooring from that co. again. >:( :-X

03' LT40HD25 Kohler hydraulic w/ accuset
MS 441, MS 290, New Holland L185

Cedarman

We messed up one time too.  We took a router table and got the right size bit and slid every board across to enlarge the groove.  What a PITA!  Made sure we double checked from then on.
I am in the pink when sawing cedar.

David Freed

Thanks for all the replies. As far as the tongue swelling after installation, I would think that if moisture was going to be able to reach the tongue of one board, it would also get to the grooved board that the tongue is in and they would both expand the same. As some of you have already said, that is one of the arguements for a snug fit. I am going to see what my resharpened knives look like before I call the company again. Thanks again.

treenail

Have installed thousands of feet of tongue and groove flooring, and I have always liked working with it a lot better if it is just lightly snug. It is noticable after a while, that my matched molding cutters do wear after a while, when producing flooring and that can change the fit from time to time regardless of good intentions. 
Norwood Lumbermate 2000 sawmill , Ford 4wd tractor,Grimm/Leader maple sugaring equipment, Ford F-350 12' flatbed truck

Handy Andy

  I like my fits tight enough they just pop together.  The next floor I lay, plan to run a bead of glue along the bottom side of the groove.  Then the floor will be glued together, and won't be able to gap after you have been running your furnace most of the winter.  Makes the floor into a solid piece.
My name's Jim, I like wood.

beenthere

Handy Andy
So when your floor dries out (from furnace running in the winter and the wood shrinks), you will expect the entire floor to shrink as a single unit?  Apparently you are not going to nail it down in the tongue on each board. That should be interesting.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

flip

I was watching an episod of This Old House a few weeks ago and they were showing a restoration of a stage.  The company was using hard maple and trying to reproduce the stage exactly as it was for "accoustical" correctness.  They were nailing down with cut nails as the original was and they showed one of the workers putting a nail in the tongue.  You can well imagine what happens when you put a wedge shaped nail in the same direction as the grain, ker-split.  They calimed it was ok because the original was cracked too.  I can't see how they could get the floor to lay properly with split tongues and cracks in the flooring, yuck.
Timberking B-20, Hydraulics make me board quick

Handy Andy

  As to the glue, I would nail as usual, but it does make the wood contract differently, and holds out the cracks.  I have installed manufactured floors that recommended glueing, so figure it will just basically make it into one sheet of wood nailed securely to the floor. 
My name's Jim, I like wood.

beenthere

If you mean by "manufactured floors", the flooring product made up of reconstituted wood or laminated plys, then that gluing may work.

Rather strong doubts it will work on strip solid-wood floors that this thread seems to be talking about. I suspect the tension will build and large cracks will form rather than miniscule cracks between each strip. But you can let us know how it works out. I'm curious to know  :)
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

woodworker9

Handy Andy

I don't want to be contradictory, but your plan to glue AND nail a solid hardwood floor is destined for failure, for the same reasons why you wouldn't want to attach a table top to it's leg base with solid fasteners.  The wood is going to move, no matter what you do.  If you glue the boards together, and then nail it down, the glue or the wood is going to fail.  It's usually the wood, and it's always in the form of cracks.

I'd hate for you to go through all that hard work to end up with a floor you'll need to remove, anyway.

As beenthere has stated, manufactured floors are layered, and built like plywood.  While they still do move a 'wee' bit, they are stable enough to glue together, and the stability of cross dimensional grain lamination keeps the floor from buckling, which is why it is allowed to float without failure.

Sure hope this post isn't thought of as out of line.  I'm just trying to help.

WW9
03' LT40HD25 Kohler hydraulic w/ accuset
MS 441, MS 290, New Holland L185

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