PTO/ Jackshaft power for edger?

LOGDOG · February 24, 2008, 09:32:11 PM

Hey All,

Yesterday I drove up to northern Arkansas and bought a second hand Morgan Extended Champ edger. Really a nice heavy duty machine. It's got a 20 hp 3 phase motor on it which the former owner says really sends the boards through it. I don't have 3 phase. I do have a phase converter though and will likely hook it up to this unit when I wrap up this custom job I'm doing. To take this edger out to the job I initially thought I'd have Morgan wire up a plug that I could use with a three phase generator and rent the generator for the week to try and knock the job out. Then I think, "why do I want to throw money down the drain on renting a generator? Maybe I ought to have them build me a jackshaft to run off the pto on my 47 hp ford tractor." It would have plenty of power. Still be relatively portable and the parts for the jackshaft should be relatively inexpensive I would think. Couple bearings, pulley, shaft, bolts, nuts ...?

Have any of you ever run an edger this way? Good, bad or other thoughts? It may be a couple months before I hook the electric up to this machine and put it in the new shop. It would save me spending a good chunk of change on renting a generator or buying a gas motor with sufficient power to run this unit.

Good, heavy edger though. Morgan really builds their stuff heavy. Wish they'd sponsor the forum.

LOGDOG

Bro. Noble · February 24, 2008, 09:45:13 PM

We run a Morgan Scragg mill with a tractor PTO. We've used tractors from 54 to 136 hp on it and it works well. We power an old Corley 3 saw edger with a VAC Case and a belt pully, while it's a little underpowered, it gets the job done and is fine for 1 1/8 in oak. We,ve loooked into buying the shaft etc. to run it off of a PTO because the tractors we have with belt pullys are all old and fairly small.

I sure don't see any reason why you can't do it.

LOGDOG · February 24, 2008, 09:55:14 PM

Any "guesstimate" on what a jackshaft may cost to have built these days? I have been searching the i-net for jackshaft prints or components and come up dry. I know Morgan will do it but thought it would be beneficial to go in knowing what it should cost.

LOGDOG

Dave Shepard · February 24, 2008, 10:22:55 PM

I bet you could do it for about $300, assuming you could scrounge some parts. The driveline you could buy directly from TSC, probably for about $100. Although one off an old rotary mower, or some other farm junk, with a slip clutch would be better. Then you would need a piece of shafting that was the same size as the driveline. Some pto's use keyed shafts at the implement end, and some are splined, I'd stay away from splines, key slots are cheaper to have machined. I don't know what the edger looks like, but you would have to have somewhere to mount the shaft in a couple of pillow blocks, and a sheave to go up to the edger. A machine shop should charge too much to cut a keyway on each end of the shaft for you, they might also be a good place to buy the shafting, if you can't scrounge it. You will need a pretty big sheave on the drive side to make up for the rpm difference of the electric motor. If the electric motor was 1725 rpms, you will need a drive sheave 3.22 times larger to get the same rpms using the tractor.

How is your supply of farm junk? A good supply and a little machine work can make for some cheap modifications.

Dave

bandmiller2 · February 25, 2008, 06:27:28 AM

Logdog,it very practical to run the edger with your tractor,especially if you only use it once in a wile.Big hitch is getting the speed up to what you need.Remember a manual transmission driven backwards will give you a healthy speed increse,but belts are better if you can do it that way.I run a small plainer with a tractor hooks right on three point hitch.PTO drives trans. output,input shaft has a large pulley belts to small pulley on plainer.Frank C.

mike_van · February 25, 2008, 06:30:41 AM

Also make sure the pto turns in the direction [cw - ccw] that you need!

LOGDOG · February 25, 2008, 06:25:33 PM

Update on this: I went up to the Morgan shop today to see about them putting a jackshaft on the machine. He thought it'd be about a $1000.00 to fabricate it and set it up. On my way up I had called my local rental outfit and they said they'd rent me a 20KW generator for $175.00/day or $415.00/ week or a 70KW for $275.00 day or $650.00/week. With those I'd just hardire the 3 phase electric motor on the edger to the generator and I'd be set to run.

I figure $1000.00 is a lot to spend on a temporary fix. I can be a tightwad and mill all my flitches on this job, set them aside, and then rent the generator for a day and blitz them with the edger. What would you guys do?

LOGDOG

Dave Shepard · February 25, 2008, 06:40:58 PM

How often do you need to run the edger? How often do you edge away from home base? The 20 KW is enough to run the 20 HP edger motor. If you had to rent it an awful lot, I would look for one to own. I found when renting equipment that I spent more time fetching and returning, and arguing about the functionality of the equipment was too much hassle, unless it was something I wasn't going to use but once in a while. You may have better rental houses in your area though. If you plan on running it off the converter, and aren't going to be moving it very often, I would rent. Too much hassle to do the jack shaft for a limited basis, and then to have to convert it back to electric when you are done. Is there enough (or any) single phase where you are going to use it to run the converter? Just my rambling opinion, as usual. :

Dave

LOGDOG · February 25, 2008, 07:10:13 PM

Dave,

I've been busy with the "day job" so I haven't been sawing as much as I like lately. This job is about 45 miles away both directions. If the logs were here I'd chip away at them when I have a couple hours here and there. Once I finish this job the mill is coming home and staying home. That's where I'll tap into my power and use the converter. They have power out there but the thought of tapping into there's and an electrician etc. makes me think that the temporary convenience of the rental generator is a better fit. Even if I need it for a week to edge as I go it'll still pay for itself in time saved. I did drop the hint to my wife tonight though ... "sure would be nice if I had a generator ... it'd sure come in handy from time." We'll see where that one goes.

I think I'll enjoy the electric. I'd like to get everything switched over by this summer.

LOGDOG

Greg Cook · February 25, 2008, 07:42:27 PM

I've been pondering something along these same lines for a bit, and without a suitable solution, but Bro. Noble has "done flung a cravin' on me", to quote Jerry Clower.
His mention of running the edger with a belt off a VAC Case made me instantly think how nice it would be to hear and old John Deere poppin' real hard whlie running a batch of boards through an edger.

If there's a REAL need for the JD, she'd let me buy one, surely.....

I think.

Thanks for the hope!

Greg

LOGDOG · February 25, 2008, 08:27:11 PM

Actually Greg, my first experience milling was helping an old guy run a Belsaw mill with the flat belt run to the edger. As crude as it was, seeing those Spruce 1x12x16' come off those logs one after the other set in motion a "cravin" I still can't seem to get rid of 17 years later. Gotta love milling.

On that 3 phase wire ...I wonder what gauge wire would be suitable ?

LOGDOG

mike_van · February 26, 2008, 02:04:26 PM

For the wire size, you need to know full load amps & the length of the run.

firecord · February 26, 2008, 09:09:29 PM

Hey neighbor
#8 should be fine for a short run of 20 feet or so. True there are formulas for wire run if you post the numbers I'll calculate it for you.
Ricky

LOGDOG · February 26, 2008, 10:09:44 PM

Hey Ricky,

Long time no hear. Thanks for the tip. I'll check the max amps tomorrow and post it. 20' should be fine as I'll likely pull the generator right up near the edger when I run it. How's your mill coming along Ricky?

LOGDOG

LOGDOG · February 27, 2008, 05:59:05 PM

On the motor plate next to amps it has 47/23.5 then 47 in one other place referencing the amps. I'm guessing 47 is the max amps it would draw? Which number wire for a 20' run and those amps?

Thank ya!

LOGDOG

StorminN · February 27, 2008, 06:24:11 PM

Hey Logdog,

What voltage is it wired for now, and what do you plan on running it at?

Sounds like the 47A is for 240V and the 23.5A would be for 480V...

The higher the voltage, the smaller the wire you need since it draws less Amps. Don't quote me on this, but I think at 47A it would call for #6 wire, and at 23.5A you might even be able to get away with #10, but it depends on the distance and if you want to de-rate the wire 20%, etc. so #8 would be safe, like firecord said.

-Norm.

LOGDOG · February 27, 2008, 06:30:05 PM

I believe I have 208/230? So would #6 maybe be better?

LOGDOG

StorminN · February 27, 2008, 06:40:08 PM

Logdog,

If you don't know for sure what voltage the motor is wired for, I'd be willing to bet if you took the cover off of the wiring junction box on the motor, it will have a schematic on the inside of the cover... I've only done a couple of these, but if memory serves me correctly, there are 9 wires that come from the windings on the motor, each wire is numbered, and if you join them up in one way, the motor is set for 480V 3phase supply, and if you join them another way, the motor is set for 240V 3 phase supply.

As far as I can remember, the 208V 3phase is a slightly different animal, as it has a "wild leg" that has a higher voltage than the other two, because it's produced with a different style transformer.

My disclaimer is I've only just dabbled in the 3 phase stuff. I don't want to confuse you, but I don't want you to burn anything up, either... so hopefully someone that really knows what they are talking about will get on here and help you... Sorry.

-Norm.

LOGDOG · February 27, 2008, 07:14:46 PM

Thanks Norm. I won't rush off into it just yet.

LOGDOG

DouginUtah · February 27, 2008, 07:47:18 PM

Quote from: StorminN on February 27, 2008, 06:40:08 PM
Logdog,

As far as I can remember, the 208V 3phase is a slightly different animal, as it has a "wild leg" that has a higher voltage than the other two, because it's produced with a different style transformer.

-Norm.

Sorry Norm but you have it backwards. It is the 240 V. which has the wild leg.

Dave Shepard · February 27, 2008, 07:49:18 PM

I don't think you have a 208 motor, as it would give you another amp reading, you only gave amps for low/high voltage, the 47/23.5 number. I am running a 220 motor on a 208 genset, no problems, just a slight HP loss. When I get it moved back to my house, I am going to reset the voltage regulator and overexcite the generator and make 220, only problem will be my 120 will be more like 140+

Dave

StorminN · February 27, 2008, 07:54:42 PM

Thanks Doug for the correction! Most of our stuff here is 480V...

-Norm.

LOGDOG · February 27, 2008, 08:57:17 PM

The 208/230 that I referred to is actually the power coming in on the lines. I'll have to look at the motor again to see what it says.

LOGDOG

bandmiller2 · February 28, 2008, 06:09:09 AM

Logdog,do you have room to mount a small gasoline engine where the motor sits now??If so you could use it and then put electric back on for the shop,and use the gas engine for somthing else.Frank C.

LOGDOG · February 28, 2008, 07:35:49 AM

Bandmiller2,

This edger actually was set up to have a gas engine on it initially. But then the owner converted it over to electric. I had thoughts of taking my 24 h.p. Onan off my LT30HD and putting it on the edger, then buying a new 38 h.p. Kohler on the mill. But ..... then I think "why?". If my intent is to stay home with the mill and I've already got a motor for each I figure I can spend the couple thousand dollars that new motor would cost on something else.

Maybe a biodiesel system. ;D

LOGDOG