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Learned a good lesson in the school of hard life today. New chapter!

Started by Kelvin, February 23, 2008, 07:17:20 PM

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Kelvin

Well i had given an offer on this guys woods that a torando had ripped up.  It was mostly small cherry on the ground with some soft maples i wasn't interested in as they were low grade and busted up, plus i got tons.  Anyhow i told him i'd pay $.25 for the cherry as there were some decent pieces that were still standing but obviously in bad shape, and that i'd push the brush off his yard.  When i told him how many board feet were in the logs on the ground he was dissapointed, and i added that $.25 was for the logs.  There were a lot of uppers that werevery marginal, and i would pay $.10 for these to see what good they might be.  Well, he was disappointed and i could tell was thinking it was real valuable as it was "cherry"  Most of what was on the ground was hard to see as there were branches all over.  We looked at a lot of trees, and he seemed like he was going to keep looking for someone to give him the big bucks.  Mind you most of these logs were quite knotty and small 8"-10"  i also told him i would trade for the lumber.  Saw them on shares, or trade for cleanup.

Well 3 months later he calls back after i forgot about it, and wants to talk about selling them again.  I went over and we discussed options when he asked if i had workmans comp and was worried about me hurting myself.  I have company liablity, but am self employed and don't have any comp.  He said he'd talk with his attorney about what we could do for me picking up the logs.  He called back saying it would be best if i didn't get paid, and traded work for the logs cleaning up, and making firewood.  Just do enough work to balance the value of the logs.  We had come up with a guess at $500 at the time, but when we settled on the deal he felt the logs were valueless and decided not to cut the remaining damaged trees that we had used in estimating the board footage.  It was a mess so coulding quite tell what was what so i guess we all know what happens next.  As its 20 miles drive each way i just kept my tractor there and took logs home with me as i cleaned up.  I was getting disappointed by the quality, they were really knotty, more open grown then i had hoped by first looking.  THe grade was really bad, but to get to them i had to clean up, so i spent 20 hours there doing tractor work which i charge about $50 an hour for, so $1,000.00 of my labor and when i was done with what logs there were i had 692 bd ft of bascially firewood!  That is at my price of $.10-$.25 about $152 worth of logs.  What a deal!!!!  I spent over $80 in diesel, gas for the truck and consumables for the chainsaws on top, which would be the value of the logs.

Here is where we are, what would you do?  I feel dumb asking the guy, but i left a note that said we didn't get all the trees we talked about, the value of the logs is low grade and very small.  I understand it was a deal, that i should have stopped working on cleanup when i hit $150 worth, or 3 hours, but i didn't exactly know what was under all the crappola.  I said in my note that i won't hold him to it, but if we could even out the deal some it would help me out for my time.  What do you guys think?  What would you say?  I may ask for the original trees that were part of the $500 guess as they would help and will blow down shortly, but they are hard to cut and will make bigger messes in the lawn and are low grade themselves, but its the best i can think of.  Look at my pics of these logs.  I can't believe i got into this!  I just wanted to save the cherry from firewood, but of all the logs only 3 are 4 sided clear, a few 3 sided, and 1/2 and 1/2 of the rest totally knotty. I only took them b/c they might be the only thing of value i would get.  I might get $.10 to del as firewood logs, and then they are so knotty them might not fly there.  I hate doing tons of work, then trying to saw the crappy logs into crappy lumber to try get some of my money back.  Ughhh.  I guess this is my tution, i won't do this again.  Everytime i get into these things people are so worried that you will steal from them they make you do all their work first, they kept saying do ours, do ours.  They didn't even think i should stop when i  found out i was paying $2 a bd ft for their cherry.  I just sold 400 bd ft of knotty cherry kiln dried for $200 to get rid of it.  I might get some of my time back at that, but really 1/2 of it should be sent to the firewood pile.

Well, it helps to tell you guys about it, and warn others with my dumb mistakes.  I have so many people after me to get these jobs done i don't protect myself from them enough.  I should have said no, i won't do all your work first and then see what is left for me.  You know nothing about logs and all cherry isn't worth money, especially this cherry!!!!  It killed me to see what i had done.  Its been two days since i left my note with them, and they have not called me back.  Maybe i should call them but wanted them to come up with some ideas.  Man i did them a big favor removing the stuff, i don't know how much a tree service would have charged them.  I'm a sucker.  I let you know if they end up offering me anything to make up for the work, but does it seem like i don't have any say in that our deal was for "what is fair" 

If you guys have any good ideas about what to suggest or do i'd appreciate hearing about it.  THey don't have any other trees on the lot that have any value.  I was trying to think of things to trade, but they might not be interested.  They might be hiding and trying to ditch me.  Hard to say how it will turn out, but doesn't look good so far.  Got to protect myself better from now on.  I guess it was a good lesson to learn, but i thought i've learned this one too many times in the past.

Also i a pick of my most expensive log buy yet.  $330 for this walnut log and about 3 trips and 5 hours cleaning up branches.  Got one good 8' but log, a nice branch group about 5' long for crotches and a couple of big branches.  Might be 30" on the small end.








See ya all,
KP

LeeB

Mywife got me into a deal of removing a big old burled mullberry from an old mans yard once. Free wood huh? After I was done I had a  couple of crap logs that were mostly heart rotted, $250 to rent a backhoe to load it, had to fix the fence I trashed when a 12" dia branch bounced up on it and then back on top of my saw from there plus all my time. Not free at all. Very little good lumber. The only consulation I had was there was one really big branch about to fall on the old man's roof if i hadn't cut every thing down for him and he surely had no money for any kind of repairs. :( :(
I say walk away from it with lesson learned and stay away from "free" logs. I know I haven't been in the tree removal service ever again after my little lesson.
'98 LT40HDD/Lombardini, Case 580L, Cat D4C, JD 3032 tractor, JD 5410 tractor, Husky 346, 372 and 562XP's. Stihl MS180 and MS361, 1998 and 2006 3/4 Ton 5.9 Cummins 4x4's, 1989 Dodge D100 w/ 318, and a 1966 Chevy C60 w/ dump bed.

Dan_Shade

I think we all have some of those stories, Kelvin.  It sucks when you get in deeper than you realized :(

Woodmizer LT40HDG25 / Stihl 066 alaskan
lots of dull bands and chains

There's a fine line between turning firewood into beautiful things and beautiful things into firewood.

New Brunswick

 I think how much you value your word is how much or how little you do. Some people spend, years and thousands of $$ on University education. Take away that you cleaned up the mess as you said and learned a lesson at a fraction of what some people spend.   :P

ARKANSAWYER

  I say "a deal is a deal."  Sometimes you just lose on the deal.  I also say "no good dead goes unpunished."  I would not go back and ask for any thing else.  Just the next time look at what you are stepping into.  You should have trusted you gut feeling the first time.  You should have also known that if it took them that long to get back to you, that you were the best deal for them.  We had a bad storm the 5th of Feb. and I have  burned alot of diesel looking at damanged trees.  The people with out insurance are looking to cash in on all that "valuable timber" that is laying all over their property.  Those with insurance just want to "give" me the timber and while I am there just clean up as I go.  They are going to pocket the insurance coin.  So far to date not a single log has come in.  I can not afford to spend the time and fuel to clean up the firewood mess while paying high grade log prices.  It does hurt to know that alot of it was good and will end up being pushed up and burned or allowed to lay and rot.  Folks do not understand that just because the logs are already laying down that it is not easy logging.  It is harder to do and the logs maybe cracked and you not know it till the saw cuts it loose.
 Just know that you are on you way to having a PHD in the University of Hard Knocks.
ARKANSAWYER

ErikC

     Don't feel too bad, a lot of us have wasted time, energy and money in similar endeavors. Good for keeping your word, and hopefully it won't happen to you again. I am glad to say though, I've never gotten it as bad as you just told. The bright side-maybe someone will hear what a good job you did and hire you for pay :D

Erik
Peterson 8" with 33' tracks, JCB 1550 4x4 loader backhoe, several stihl chainsaws

zopi

yep...pretty much everybody who has actually done anything in life has had deals like that...

I've been around the block...but I was kicked around it.. ;D

i'd just let it go..
Got Wood?
LT-15G GO chassis added.
WM sharpener and setter
And lots of junk.

SwampDonkey

I think I'd just let it go to. On the buying end though, you'll learn some day that if you can't see the log enough to grade it, then walk away. Unless your in the firewood or hog fuel or pulpwood business, $50/cord for the tangled mess.  ;D

I've noticed some places I traveled that folks like homes right in under trees. Most folks here only want a few yard trees away from the house. They want to see the view. ;D
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

J_T

Bet a bunch of us been down that road  ::) Wind blown trees come under a different deal all way around if you ask me . Have worked large tracks in the past lots will be twisted apart an no good . Got a man just busting at the seams to give me a big walnut and couple big oaks they still standing must clean up brush . Soon as he lets me buy some his trees in his big woods i'll think about it  8) 8)
Jim Holloway

Dave Shepard

You are basically in the tree business when you go to cleanup storm damage, or take down trees for logs, you should charge accordingly. The formula should be (cleanup cost)-(log value)=customers bill. If you meet with someone about a tree and they have the mindset that they are going to get a free cleanup, that isn't good for you. A tree service is going to charge top dollar for the cleanup, and charge a disposal fee to get rid of those logs. Unless the logs are extremely valuable and exceed the cleanup cost, you should always be taking home some cash for your efforts, the logs are just a bonus.

How is your relationship with the local tree services? Have you been able to make any alliances with them? I know when I was in the business, I wouldn't look too highly upon someone doing free cleanups. (Although that would be their business, not mine). Harvesting urban timber seems to be a fine line between being a sawmill operator, and a tree service. My initial interest in sawmills was to utilize the many good yard trees that I saw going to waste, or being sawn into firewood, now I want to focus on sawmilling.

Dave

edit: If you leave a sofa on the sidewalk with a FREE sign on it, it will be there for months, put $25 on it, someone will steel it that night. People always think value is related to cost, if you are offering them a "free" way to get their yard cleaned up, they aren't going to value you to much. I didn't make this post to discourage you. I think that if you marketed yourself in a different light, you could make some money doing the cleanup, and get some logs.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

abatol

well I've eaten some jobs before reminds me of a time I tore a house down for the lumber.  lost my a__ on that but the high side is that the customer altered the deal first. So just pick up your equipment and call it a lesson . If I read your post correctly that is. He had a quagmire and so a nice guy coming. next time get paid for the clean up and take the logs as a favor to him or stack them and buy only the ones that you really want. Private me if you need some workmans comp fairly cheap.
It doesn't matter what shape the board is as long as it's a rectangle. Smiley   Stolen Quote Thanks TOM

AusLJW

Hello
Keep your chin up.  Hopefully one bad deal won't ruin you.  It would be good to talk to the guy but if he does not want to know then you have no real comeback.
I have done those complicated deals to try and please a landowner but now I don't.
I operate a sawmill.  I buy the best logs I can at the best price I can delivered to me. I think I'm fairy efficient at milling but when it comes to logging, cartage or tree services, well, I'm just not efficient so I leave to the guys who are set up for it.
That sort of goes against the mobile sawmill ethic but I reckon that the mobility of a woodmizer isn't its main attribute.  Its flexibility.  It can cut  a wide range of products with out monumental changes in set up.
All the best and regards

AusLJW

solidwoods

When you work for people, charge them.

What you should have done was process all that lumber sitting outside.  Lumber sitting on sticks outside looses value everyday.
IRS auction has some nice 4 side molders coming up on auction.
jim
Ret. US Army
Kasco II B Band mill
Woodworking since 83
I mill & kiln dry lumber, build custom furniture, artworks, flooring, etc.
If you mill, you'll be interested in some of my work in one way or another.
We ship from our showroom.
N. Central TN.

Captain

I've been burned on a couple of those myself.  I exercise a bit more caution now.

Captain

fencerowphil (Phil L.)

I suppose that, if I had more equipment to do a job like the one you just experienced,
then I would have gotten into a similar mess by now, also.  I will third the previous motion...
"just let it go."  I keep a file called "Hard Lessons."  I will write down the experience along
with the particular lesson(s) I hope to keep in mind for the future and put it in that file.

As LJW in Australia said, I'm just not efficient at logging and not efficient even on log-moving for
most projects, so that keeps me out of trouble in many ways.

Abatol's advice on the "next time" is right on target.

It looks like the advice you got on your December 30 post about this situation was on target, also.
                  ?
Back when I was doing the sawing trips to Mississippi after hurricane Katrina,  I drove up to meet
a guy for a big job.  When I first looked into his eyes that very first ten seconds, something said
to me, "this may not go well."  Well, I ignored that little voice, and sure enough, it did not go well.
In short, that "big job" seemed to get smaller and smaller and I never did get to saw the large
piles of nice logs he initially showed me.  Instead, he bought lumpy crooked logs from much closer
to the saw site.  Keep in mind that I had travelled 800 miles in that case.  After about three days
of those, followed by a cessation of logs arriving, I got my check and packed up for the next site
about 70 miles even farther from home.

Phil L.                                 
Bi-VacAtional:  Piano tuner and sawyer.  (Use one to take a vacation from the other.) Have two Stihl 090s, one Stihl 075, Echo CS8000, Echo 346,  two Homely-ite 27AVs, Peterson 10" Swingblade Winch Production Frame, 36" and 54"Alaskan mills, and a sore back.

Ron Wenrich

Sometimes I think we get blinded by what we think is potential, without really looking at the broader picture.  Afterall, this is cherry, and cherry is really valuable.  Right?

Well, good cherry is valuable.  Marginal cherry still has value, just not as much.  I've seen the same thing when oak was hot, and we'll be hearing more about walnut, I'm sure.

The first thing you must look at is the value of the logs.  If they don't warrant the work, then walk away.  I've been on many a wild goose chase to look at trees.  When I talk to a landowner on the phone, you've got some answer to questions before you get there.

For me, the first one is can you put your arms around your trees?  If yes, then do your finger tips meet?  If they do, that tells me the trees are less than 18" dbh.  That also means no veneer value.  If they don't meet, then they're over 18" and are probably worth a better look at.

Another question is when was the last time it was logged.  I'm not interested in cleaning up someone else's mess.  Same goes with storm damage.  I'll pick up the logs, but clean up is something else.  I'm not in the clean up business, so if I have to do it, its more.

All you have to do is get your priorities straight. 
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

fencerowphil (Phil L.)

Another way to look at this, Kelvin, is that when we "quit doing that,"
namely, stop having to learn life's hard lessons,  we are probably either
dead or close to it.  Hope we all have plenty of life and vigor left for the lessons!

Phil L.            8)
Bi-VacAtional:  Piano tuner and sawyer.  (Use one to take a vacation from the other.) Have two Stihl 090s, one Stihl 075, Echo CS8000, Echo 346,  two Homely-ite 27AVs, Peterson 10" Swingblade Winch Production Frame, 36" and 54"Alaskan mills, and a sore back.

Left Coast Chris

We have had a couple of wind storms that tore up alot of people's trees.  Ive recently been out to clean up two sites.  Im just a hobby wood sawer so it did not hurt too much and they were people I knew and wanted to help.  But when I was done I was exhausted and realized how much the work was actually worth.

What may help is doing some calculations to estimate and write down what the work will actually entail before agreeing to do it.  For people I want to help, no big deal.  But aproaching it from a itemized break down stand point would help the "reality check" before agreeing to do the work..... at least in my case. :P :)
Home built cantilever head, 24 HP honda mill, Case 580D, MF 135 and one Squirel Dog Jack Russel Mix -- Crickett

MikeH

 Kelvin, I know how you can make a few bucks. Take all of you're  posts from the last few years and make a book  :P. It is some very funny reading, only because most of us can relate. Keep up the good work and keep us posted.
Mike

lord_kenwolf


   a deal is a deal as my dad and granddad always said. sometimes the deal is good for you other times it isnt. their is no way i would go back on my word and ask for money or compensation after the job was done cause i made a mistake and valued the logs wrong.  that is  just something you need to take and grin about it and learn a lesson from it.

   when we sawed some cherry a couple years ago we sold the slabs and parts of the tree that wern't worth nothing to a BBQ  business a couple towns away. he gave us a nice price for them and said if we ever had any more that he would be more then willing to trade some nice BBQ them.  if worse comes to worse you can always have some nice tasting cheese bergers from the cherry you got.

Tom

Pack up and go home.  When he calls wanting to know if you want the rest, tell him you can't affore anymore.

Don't give him the opportunity to be able to say that he stuck it to you.  Just smile and leave.

Some of these folks do business by not leaving a spare penny on the table.  Don't let it be you.  It's reprehensile.  If you can sleep good tonight, then the wood you have is worth it.  Saw it, dry it, stock it and consider it inventory.  It's as good as most cherry we see around here.  You might even find a buyer that will pull the fat from the fire.

You don't win them all, but you don't win any if you don't try.  :)

SwampDonkey

Quote from: Tom on February 25, 2008, 08:37:01 PM
Pack up and go home. When he calls wanting to know if you want the rest, tell him you can't afford anymore.

:D :D :D
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

ely

everyone has done the same thing, like was said before i have got into this tearing down old houses and buildings for lumber. then i got real smart and bought myself a sawmill............no more scrouging for lumber now by golly...... but it did open me up to a whole new world of people that want to jam it to me in a different way, still feels the same, that jamming part i mean. keep your head up and keep on keeping on.

and kelvin when you get good and sick of us all laughing at your excapades, you are more than welcome to come down and hang out at my space, i am sure you will find that amusing, i am just not printing up all the crazy stuff i get into :D

raycon

I'm hoping I turned the corner on the "will work for logs"...but doubt it.



Lot of stuff..

big_sid

Tom is right pack up and forget it. some people want something for nothing, and this guy is one. the more you try to deal with him the worse it will be on you. you should have seen the red flag right off when he was trying to tell you his logs were made of gold, then would have been the time to walk away.
never been so happy to be so broke

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