Accurate scaling of long logs---best method?

[maineframer]

What is the best method for scaling tree length logs? Do you just use the standard scale rule? We use international scale in Maine. I have a logger offering me standing Hemlock and he is going to buck it any length I want but is concerned about taper and getting the correct measure. I am learning and welcome your advice.

[Ron Wenrich]

You could scale it before you cut it down.  If you have a tree count and timber estimate, then you could scale it as its standing.  Just pay on tree scale instead of log scale.  Taper is already accounted for by using the dbh.

If you don't have a tree count, then you could simply take a dbh, then figure how many logs after its felled.  Again, taper is accounted for.

Why not scale after its bucked?  How long of logs are we talking about?

[maineframer]

36' long would be the longest logs. 24 & 28s possibly.

[Ron Wenrich]

Another possible method is to scale the small end inside bark.  Then scale it outside bark to get your bark thickness.  Measure at midpoint with a caliper outside bark and deduct bark thickness.  That would give you diameters for 2 logs.  Figure your scale out, and see how it works out.

[SwampDonkey]

I don't know how huge your piles will be here. But, the acceptable method here on crown for large quantities of tree length is to measure the length of the tree length for the average size stick and then the depth of the pile and estimate the air space depending on how tight the stack is piled.These measurements are done the length of the roadside pile to get a good representative average. This is called "squaring up the pile" in the NB Scaling manual. I've use that method to measure production and to keep tabs on wood flow to compare with the mill scales. Worked well for me.

http://www.gnb.ca/0078/publications/Scaling_manual-e.pdf
page 27

On small quantities Ron's method sounds plausible.

[Tillaway]

Split scale (pencil buck) as described by Ron.  Set a maximum scaling segment length for example; Oregon West-side uses 40'plus trim as the maximum and East-side uses 20' plus trim.  A 40' log delivered to a mill using West-side scale the log will be scaled as one 40' segment but to an East-side mill the log would be "pencil bucked" and scaled as two 20' segments.  Actual taper or an agreed to formula determines the scaling diameter of the pencil bucked segment.

Long logs tend to have lower logging costs, at least out west, so keep that in mind during negotiations.

[oakiemac]

Good question main farmer, I've wondered the same thing myself.

Ron, I'm a little confused on you method "If you don't have a tree count, then you could simply take a dbh, then figure how many logs after its felled.  Again, taper is accounted for."
Are you saying to use the dbh for the diameter on a log scale (we use doyle) for all the logs in a tree? Say I have a standing tree dbh of 18" and it has 3 -8' logs so then I would have 3 logs with 98bf for total of 294bf? ???

[thecfarm]

When I sell logs it's by the international scale but I never had to figure out logs longer than 16 feet.I've always done it inside the bark and always go to the small measuement.I'm looking at a scale rule now.It does not show logs longer than 16 feet.But with a little math that could be solved.If I was selling the logs I would be concerned about losing money.If the hemlock does not have some size to it,taper is a factor.You're talking 24-28 lenght and 36.IMO 3-12 footers would scale out better than a 36 footer due to taper,IF there is alot of taper.I think you would gain boards,scale,on a 36 foot log due to taper.There would be more boards on the big end,than the small end you are measuring from.

[SwampDonkey]

cfarm, what about the softwood and those 24' and 32' logs? They pay more here for long logs per th, than for short ones. They slash them on the mill yard. You don't use Bangor rule on softwood?

The method I discussed is to estimate solid volume, logs are generally slashed out of the tree length at the mill or on some forest operations, they are piece scaled or weighed depending on the size of the operation. When weighed, the fir content drops the scale price because it's heavier than spruce (green).

[WH_Conley]

My Doyle rull just goes to 20'. I have scaled 20' logs and then cut them to 2 10' pieces and measued them again, very little difference.

When I fisrt started buying logs I had a logger bring a load in and I was going to cut them, he said "never mind, they won't gain anything, we did that before", these were low grade logs, ties mostly. I cut and remeasured again, very little difference.

There was not a lot of taper to these logs, low grade, the footage wouldn't have made much difference in load price, a little, but not a lot.

If I am buying tie logs double length I will give a little on the rule, can get some boards on the taper.

[thecfarm]

Swampdockey, have never sold logs longer than 16 foot.I know the market is there,but have always dealt with Irving and like the scale I get.I have scaled loads before and they came out with just about the same.This means alot to me.There is a logger that has made the rounds here.He cut my woods for me twice.He sells to Irving too.Same reason good scale.If asked me where I wanted the logs to go.I mentioned Irving,but was quick to say you should know better than me.I have heard many of the stories how a person made 1000's more by selling long logs and going here and there.I like the way they treat my loads.I have also never sold logs by weight.
My opinon was on logs with ALOT of taper.SMALL hemlock logs are REAL bad about taper.

[SwampDonkey]

Yeah hemlock tapers quicker than spruce, fir and pine.

Your experience with Irving is a lot different than here.  The problem is not scale, it's price. ;D Fraser's have always paid way more than Irving for wood.  :D :D In southern NB and NS they are really stick'n it to woodlot owners.  >:( We are lucky here where I live with the Maine markets. Irving doesn't buy 10 % of the volume sold off private ground here. They also haven't been able to acquire much ground in my county either. The biggest parcel was old rail road lands old KC got for chicken feed and most has never yet been cut off it out around Ayers Lake.

[Cedarman]

ERC is almost always measured in 8' lengths.  If 16 footers come in, the small end is measured and 1 1/2" is added to the measure for the second log.  Sometimes it adds an inch sometimes 2 inches.   A 9" top has 24', the second log either 30 or 36'
12 feet x 45 cents  is $5.40 cents extra for that stick.  50 sticks on a load could be $270.00 difference for the logger.  They won't sell long logs unless taper is taken into account.  For 12' logs we have to be nice when we pull the tape or the loggers won't bring 12 foot logs.  But we get a premium for lumber longer than 8' as very few mills in the US saw cedar longer than 8'.

My advice is to take a couple of what look like typical trees and buck them and see how much taper is there.  Or measure the small end outside bark to outside bark and go down the tree measuring at 8 or 10 or 12 foot intervals, whatever your normal cut lengths are and again measuring outside bark to outside bark.  This will give you the amount of taper per log length.   

[extrapolate85]

International 1/4" assumes 0.5" of taper every 4' so you could allow the same, e.g., a 32' stump-cut log with a 12" top could be assumed to have a 16' - 12" log-segment in the top (95 BF) and a 16' - 14" log segment in the butt (135 BF) and add the total of the two segment volumes together  (230 BF). If the log is a 2nd cut, measure the small end and the large end, and interpolate the mid-point, e.g., if the log is 32', 12" top and 17" on the large end; the interpolated small end diameter of the second segment would be 14.5", which is always rounded up when fractional, so the second cut 32' log would be a 16' 12" top segment scaling 95 board feet and a 16' 15" log scaling 155 BF (250 BF in total).

[Ron Wenrich]

Oakiemac

When we built the volume calculator, I noticed that the taper was figured in for each log and that they used a log volume that accumulated to figure out tree volume.  You could use that measurement as long as its on butt logs, and everything is in either log or half log increments.  It wouldn't do a 28' log accurately.  Its pretty limited, but could be a possibility.

[Sawyerfortyish]

I have bought lots of hemlock here. I buy on Doyle scale. Most of the logs come in here in 19'-21'-23'or 25'lengths. The 19'I figure a 10' and 8' the21' two 10s the 23' a 10' and 12'and the 25 two 12s. I scale the small end and add 1"in the middle for the first log. this works well for footage and the loggers are happy. I don't like International scale .On small logs it's hard to get your footage out of em when you saw.

[ErikC]

  Most everyone where I am uses the scribner scale, and up to 40' long logs can be easily figured using the factor method. There is a factor for each diameter, multiply times length, round to nearest 10 board feet.
  Example-32' log, 15" end dia.   32 x 8.88=284.16 Rounded to 280 bf.
  My scribner scale book has a table with all the factors. It also has all the way to 80' logs in the standard table so the math can even be avoided most cases. I do not know if there is such a method for the international scale, but would think so?

Erik

[Deadwood]

Its a tough question...

I wonder if there is a better method then converting to board feet since you are not really using that side of the equation? What I mean is, you are making beams, so the longer the beam is, the more you will gain from lower labor costs on installing what could be sill plates or long rafters on a house? I wonder...and this is just being tossed out there for consideration, if you went via cubic feet?

The calculations would be easy to do. You will never get a beam that is bigger then the small end of the log measured inside the bark at the narrowest point. Say you have a log that is 36 feet long, 9 inches at the smallest point, inside the bark on the small end. That figures out to 20.25 cubic feet. An 8 foot log of the same size would only produce 4.5 cubic feet. That would keep the math easy, and accurate, but only take into account what was usable for you. Assuming of course you could only get one beam out of a log.

Its not really fair to the logger since what is waste, or what ends up being boards for you in other areas of the build, would add up. They won't be likely to sell to you since they can get more money per given log at a regular sawmill.

I think what you have to do is make your own conversion chart. That is decide what the logs are worth to you. You would have to pay the logger on BF scale to make sure you are keeping everything apples to apples, and oranges to oranges. Then use cubic feet to calculate what you actually have for beams in the wood you bought. The difference would be the ratio of average taper to longer span. After awhile I think you would find a typical pattern emerge and that would be the average taper ratio.

Now the problem is, bucking logs is where a logger makes or loses money. I always figured that tree taper is two inches to two feet. That is, if a tree tapers more then 2 inches in diameter, its best to cut the log back by two feet. So in other words if I had a choice between a 14 foot log that is 10 inches in diameter, or a 12 foot log that is 13 inches in diameter, you make more money by cutting it back to 12 feet. The problem with long logs is you lose that ability to "high grade" as I call it. To combat this, you could always pay a bonus at x amount of dollars per extra foot of log length.

As I said, its a tough scale to determine, but I think with a little conversion from board feet to cubic feet, and a bonus per linear foot of log, you could find a great balance that would pay the logger fairly and yet give you a maximum return on your investment.

Bets of luck to you.

[Deadwood]

One more thought...have you asked the Maine Forest Service about this delimia? I know back in the day, long logs were a common occurance. They always went by board feet and I remember a mill on the Penobscot River in the 1930's cut some logs that were 56 feet long and 3 inches thick to make a daily record at that time. There must be a formula the old timers used for long logs. The Forest Service would be the people I ask.

I have always found the MFS to be really great at getting back to you too. Typically that very day or the next working day. I've contacted them many times by email and had great luck with a response.

[Cedarman]

When you get away from non stardard items it calls for non standard ways of doing things.  When I want a logger to bring odd stuff, we have to have a pow wow. Like the time a customer wanted teepee poles. 22 foot long, 1" at the small end. How about lets scale that :D :D  We figured out a fair price to both of us and I told the customer what they would cost.  Customer said yes, I said yes, logger said yes and customer got their poles.

You are looking for a fair way to treat the logger and treat yourself.  Ask the logger what they think is fair for getting you some long logs.  Come up with some rough calculations based on what you have read here and say you think there is "x" number of board feet in a log this long.  Is it more work or less work to bring long logs.  Logger has to kick out the ones with sweep.  The harder it is to do something, the bigger the premium.  By knowing what the value of the logs are to yourself, you set the maximum price you can pay.  So the challenge is getting the material for less than your maximum value.

Doesn't matter what the next guy down the road figures the logs at.  You are looking for non standard items.

We call it custom work.

[beenthere]

cedarman
I think that was very well said, and applies to many questions asked on the Forum about price, and what others are getting (or paying) that is fair.

Good that you included the log sweep comment, as that will likely be quite an important factor.

[SwampDonkey]

2" sweep is usually the cut off here for most big outfits.

[beenthere]

2" sweep is usually the cut off here for most big outfits.

2" in 40' is not bad...2" in 8' is a bit much....

[Rocky_Ranger]

Tillaway and Ron both have it the way I'd do it, I used to scale Eastside/20'max mill deck but we could scale truck lengths too.  Scale rules still in effect and on-line somewhere.  It's fair to all, millions upon millions of board feet of timber been "settled" by that method.

[SwampDonkey]

2" in 40' is not bad...2" in 8' is a bit much....

24's as I recall. It's not that bad actually. Worst on small diameter stuff of course. I remember when cutting softwood logs we always tried to get 24's because it was better money. Some trees we could get two 24's and a 16'. Softwood veneer they always wanted 16'6" minimum and 2 foot increments there after with 14" top min. We never cut any that size here in my day. I only seen it a couple places and it was red spruce, some couldn't go because of shake or spiral grain. Trees were too old. Can't win for loosing. :D

What got me was the requirement of 4" trim on 4' pulp. It's just pulp, so they always got 8% free wood on every stick. And they use the bark to for the boilers, every morsel. That's another discussion.