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Author Topic: Stump Sprout  (Read 7625 times)

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Offline LEES WOODCO

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Stump Sprout
« on: February 17, 2008, 01:47:11 pm »
Is there a certain time of year or cutting method to help prevent stump sprout without using chemicals ? I know cutting very close to ground promotes it but have never heard of a way to prevent it.

Offline SwampDonkey

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Re: Stump Sprout
« Reply #1 on: February 17, 2008, 08:07:36 pm »
I don't know if there is a sure method of preventing stump sprouts. Gurdling may work with one species and not another. Age is also a factor in some species. Mature sugar maple for instance don't sucker much if at all. But, red maple will sucker bad no matter how old. It will even sucker bad if girdled. The lower your stumps are cut the les sopportunity to sucker because there are less dormant buds under the bark to sprout. High stumps are the worst for suckering. You've never had to thin second growth (2-6" on the stump) before have you? ;D

Species like beech and elm can form new buds from the cambium (callis tissue) and form stool shoots around the ring of the cut stump, regardless on stump height. I guess you just have to know the behaviour of the species your working with more than anything.

Pre-commercial thinning pays off. :)

'If she wants to play lumberjack, she's going to have to learn to handle her end of the log.'
Dirty Harry

Online thecfarm

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Re: Stump Sprout
« Reply #2 on: February 17, 2008, 08:31:35 pm »
How much you talking in trying to control?  Ten-20 acres or? I'm claiming back an old pasture and use a trimmer on those suckers.But this is on a small scale and you have to do it when they are small.When I don't get around to doing the trimming when I should the back side of an axe or a shovel will break them off and make room for more to grow.  ;D   But I do try to keep up on it.
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Offline tonich

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Re: Stump Sprout
« Reply #3 on: February 18, 2008, 01:06:58 pm »
With some good success, you can prevent next generation sprouts cutting in the second half of summer. Thus you can ensure enough time for sprouting, but still not enough time for shoot stiffening, which will lead to sure winter killing (assuming you have a real winter over there). Not being enough for total sprout control though, it is a drastic step towards it. For the next vegetation season you will definitely have much less sprouts to deal with.

As stated, the lower your stumps are cut, the less dormant buds are to sprout.
Indeed, the lowest buds in the stump have the best quality and potential, because they are initiated at the youngest stage of development of the tree and for sure – most juvenile. They should produce the straightest / most sustainable stems, out of the possible in a the future sprout forest.

Offline ibseeker

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Re: Stump Sprout
« Reply #4 on: February 19, 2008, 01:46:10 pm »
This is a similar question that I was about to ask. I met with a Consulting Forester and he made a couple of statements that I wanted to confirm here on the FF before proceeding with cutting stump growth. I've learned that seperate confirmation is a good idea because of some bad/erroneous information that I was given before. In fact, many of my questions and the direction that I was headed was based upon bad information. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.
I'm sure that a few of you were scratching your heads wondering what I was thinking and planning because after learning more, I clearly was making some odd plans and asking some strange questions. This isn't to say that I understand this well enough to make good decisions but maybe my questions and plans will get better.

The CF stated that it was unnecessary to cut poplar stump growth because a dominant shoot would develop and the others would die off. He also stated that maple, without being specific about type, needed to have the stump growth controlled and to pick the dominant shoot and cut off everything else.
So if I understand what I've read here, let me ask a couple of questions.

Is he correct about the poplar? That'd be one less species to worry about.
With maple, just find the best sprout closest to the base of the stump and cut everything else off?
Is this something that I will have to do again next year?
Donk wrote about beech and elm, I've got lot's of beech so that was good info. What other species do I need to be concerned about stump growth with.....red oak, white oak, hickory, ash, chestnut oak? These are the dominant species in my forest.

Chuck
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Offline tonich

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Re: Stump Sprout
« Reply #5 on: February 20, 2008, 03:37:32 am »
I should second the CF’s statement for the poplar.

To me personally, your composition looks great - red oak, white oak, hickory, ash, chestnut oak! (I haven’t even seen some of those species, but something tells me they are most desirable ones  ;) :P).
I didn’t understand what are you intentions though – are you doing a clearcut and what kind of regeneration I would count on. Are concerning any planting, etc?
Tell us more, please! If you have photos, please put them in here (we are all photoes addicted guys :D)!

Offline SwampDonkey

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Re: Stump Sprout
« Reply #6 on: February 20, 2008, 07:25:22 am »
Toni, I think poplar in this case is tulip poplar (magnolia). I'm not familiar with the suckering habits of it myself. I know in aspen stands, they are self thinning in a short span of years and they tend to root sucker more than stump sprout. Suckers will appear up to 300 feet from the parent tree.

Pre-commercial thinning pays off. :)

'If she wants to play lumberjack, she's going to have to learn to handle her end of the log.'
Dirty Harry

Offline tonich

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Re: Stump Sprout
« Reply #7 on: February 20, 2008, 07:54:52 am »
Ouch!
I was considering Black Poplar then!
Not familiar to Tulip Poplar, either.


Thank for the input my friend – at the right point, as always.  ;) :)

Offline ibseeker

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Re: Stump Sprout
« Reply #8 on: February 20, 2008, 11:38:05 am »
tonich, I've been having problems posting photo's but I'm still trying. I'll figure it out sooner or later. As a last resort I'll ask Jeff but I hate to bug him when I know how busy he is with this forum.

Swampdonkey is right, it is tulip poplar. Seems like a good tree, the logger was more than happy to take the ones that I wanted out. How can you tell a root sprout from a sapling?

The loggers took the majority of Virginia pine, Southern Yellow pine, hemlock and some poplar that was past it's prime and in an area that I'd like to make into a pond. They left a couple of acres of SYP and hemlock at my FIL's request. I wanted it all gone but for some reason he wanted to have some left.

I'll start another thread on my experience with the loggers and the Consulting Forester that I hired. I'll also include photo's. I have some questions and it will help to have both together. I don't want to hijack this thread or change the subject because I'm still uncertain about how to handle the stump sprouts for different species and I'm hoping the rest of my questions will be answered.

Also tonich, I agree that Swampdonkey is very consistent with timely input and good info. I just wonder about that name, though......



Chuck
worn out poulan, Stihl 250SC, old machete and a bag of clues with a hole in the bottom

Offline tonich

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Re: Stump Sprout
« Reply #9 on: February 20, 2008, 01:02:25 pm »
...I just wonder about that name, though......

So do I.
In this case, I ask the Urban Dictionary: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=swamp+donkey&defid=1066263  ;D
This is what I did, when I first discovered Red Neck on this forum.
Go figure!  :o :D :D :D

Offline tonich

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Re: Stump Sprout
« Reply #10 on: February 20, 2008, 01:03:15 pm »
Ooops!
Double post.
Had some internet connection disturbance.  ;D ;D ;D

Save to delete.

Offline ibseeker

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Re: Stump Sprout
« Reply #11 on: February 20, 2008, 01:22:25 pm »
That's disturbing....but very funny, I'll never look at Swampdonkey the same! 


Let's see if this photo uploads to this post.
Chuck
worn out poulan, Stihl 250SC, old machete and a bag of clues with a hole in the bottom

Offline ibseeker

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Re: Stump Sprout
« Reply #12 on: February 20, 2008, 01:40:12 pm »
Well, it looks like I've taken another step in my FF education.

The photo shows some maple trees with multiple trunks. I'm guessing that after the last logging, many years ago that no one dealt with the stump regeneration and that's why much of the maple looks like this.
Is that a good assumption?
 

Maple regeneration from the recent logging in August 07
 

Here's a cool machine that I never got to see in action.


Chuck
worn out poulan, Stihl 250SC, old machete and a bag of clues with a hole in the bottom

Offline beenthere

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Re: Stump Sprout
« Reply #13 on: February 20, 2008, 01:51:58 pm »
Great job on the pics....thanks
south central Wisconsin
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Offline SwampDonkey

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Re: Stump Sprout
« Reply #14 on: February 20, 2008, 03:04:23 pm »
My guess is you don't having thinning programs in TN. It's hard work and the brush saw isn't cheap. It costs our silviculture program $300 an acre and there are guidelines. Those look like 20 year old sprouts. Might be younger for down your way. We leave at least two, sometimes three depending on proximity to the nearest next crop tree. Be thankful there are no moose down there or that red maple would be stripped to bits.  :D :D

Pre-commercial thinning pays off. :)

'If she wants to play lumberjack, she's going to have to learn to handle her end of the log.'
Dirty Harry

Offline ibseeker

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Re: Stump Sprout
« Reply #15 on: February 20, 2008, 03:17:50 pm »
Yeah, it's good to get the photo thing down.
Donk, I don't understand the reference to the number of sprouts in relationship to the proximity of a crop tree?
Is there a simple way to determine if a maple is a red or a sugar?

In the forum extras, someone had a simple way to determine red oak vs. white oak. It was borderline on it's political correctness but I don't much care about that.

About the thinning, I'm willing to buy a brush saw. I figure the $500 is well worth the labor and time savings. I was going to wait until next year and then use a brush saw to whack down the Virginia pine. I want to replant that area with loblolly. I need to get started on my post about the logging and Con Forester stuff.

Chuck
worn out poulan, Stihl 250SC, old machete and a bag of clues with a hole in the bottom

Offline SwampDonkey

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Re: Stump Sprout
« Reply #16 on: February 20, 2008, 05:05:06 pm »

Donk, I don't understand the reference to the number of sprouts in relationship to the proximity of a crop tree?

This depends on the target density and the silvics of the crop trees (trees you want to have standing for future use). In maple stands we like to leave the thinned saplings rather tight for up to 20 foot tall stems and a little wider spaced for taller ones because of epicormic branching and resprouting behaviors. When you come to a clump that has 10 stems in it there are usually 2 dominant ones in it. Are they of decent quality to leave? Maybe they are crooked as rams horns and need to all be whacked down, but next to it might be a nice single stemmed white oak and he might not be as big diameter, but he looks nice. Then you might see a wide gap in the stand, maybe 40 feet wide and you see some nice potential trees around the perimeter. You thin those clumps and leave 2 per clump or 3 to have enough competition at those clumps between the suckers to minimize suckering. Some times you have to leave a trash tree in the hole, because there is nothing else. We try to leave 1200-1400 stems/acre on the short height sections and 800-1000 in the taller stuff up to 30 feet. Drop the density about 100 stems/acre for each 10 feet of height beyond that. To check your density, use a rope and swing a circle for a stem count.

tree spacing:

43560 ft2/acre
target density 1200 st/acre

What spacing do I need to fit 1200 trees on an acre?

43560 ft2/acre / 1200 stems/acre = ~36 ft2/stem rounded

sqroot (36) = 6 feet between trees

How long do you need your rope? Well, what's your optimum density? Let's use 1200 st/acre for example. With a 11.78 foot rope we have a circle with area 435.6ft2.  You'll see why I used this length here to simplify the math later. ;D

If we space the trees optimally to 6' x 6' spacing, how many should we average inside that circle to achieve 1200 stems/acre? Our 435.6 ft2 circle is 1/100th of an acre, right? Keep that number in mind to do your sampling on the fly.

so, 1200 st/acre / 100th acre = 12 stems per plot.

Using the same rope and target of 1400 st/acre = 14 stems/plot (spacing is tighter, I think it worked out to 5.5 feet apart) fast, simple, efficient.

To check your stocking mark 3 feet on your rope and swing it from a fixed point. It shows whether your clustering the spacing tighter, too open or more evenly. If it's too open, don't worry about one plot, do at least 4 before deciding, some plots can be thicker. Sometimes you have to leave a junk tree to satisfy the density. Your looking at the average, the trees and the ground dictate your thinning.  80 % stocking or better is good practice. If the rope hits a tree in the circle, it's a stocked plot. I'd walk 50 paces on N-S E-W grid for areas under 5 acres and 100 paces on > 5 acres. You can do the post density and stocking with the same plot centre. This is just a check, most small operations on small woodlots don't bother unless required for subsidy.

Remember inter tree spacing will not be exact, sometimes you have 8 feet, sometimes 4. You have to work with quality first and quantity second and deal with large natural canopy holes. You can't show this with a picture, it's impossible unless it's an overhead birds eye view, then you can't judge tree quality. A non typical canopy hole would not be sampled, on large operations they are deducted from area if 1/10 acre or more in size.

Quote
Is there a simple way to determine if a maple is a red or a sugar?

red maple
- red shoot tips
- blunt rounded red buds
- 15 " plus stump, good chance of suckering, growth is rapid
- flower before leaves emerge, red, seeds mature early summer

sugar maple
- brown shoot tips
- brown, sharp pointed bud
- 15 " plus stump, suckering is suppressed, growth is slow, low survival. Young small stumps sucker rapidly, survival high.
- flowers emerge with leaves, yellow, seeds mature in October.


Pre-commercial thinning pays off. :)

'If she wants to play lumberjack, she's going to have to learn to handle her end of the log.'
Dirty Harry

Offline RynSmith

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Re: Stump Sprout
« Reply #17 on: February 20, 2008, 08:51:28 pm »
I just have to say "very well said, SD."

Offline tonich

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Re: Stump Sprout
« Reply #18 on: February 21, 2008, 07:20:19 am »
Great looking sight, ibseeker!
Thank you!  :)


Swampdonkey = Rock and Roll!  8)

Offline woodtroll

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Re: Stump Sprout
« Reply #19 on: February 21, 2008, 10:12:26 am »
From your pics. it looks like a young stand. Do you need to worry about the little sprouts? Develop the larger stuff, thats your feature portion of the stand.  Then gradually develop your regen if as needed.
Tulip Poplar is a great medium value tree (develops very well from sprouts). It grows a lot of good volume very fast, good quality oaks would be more desirable (also develop well from sprouts).

The multi stem trees should be selected to one main good stem, if possible. If both stems are of good quality keep them both.

It sounded like you wanted to pick out your best trees and release them from competition. A simple rule of thumb is release your crown on at least three sides.  Take the diameter of your tree and release the crown that many feet.

All this leads to one main question and your consulting forester should have asked it. What do you want from your forest? What are your goals? Answer that and then get help and info to reach them if possible.
Your area should grow excellent trees. So I would suggest go for good quality.>