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Log-Master mill question

Started by andybuildz, February 13, 2008, 10:34:31 AM

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andybuildz

As some of you might know I've been looking/researching mills to buy...thing is, I'm trying to sell my house so I can move from here on Long Island in NY to the Asheville area of NC where I'd like to buy a bunch of land and build a timber frame for my family. Being the RE markets so bad we're stuck here longer than I hoped to be so I've been using that time to educate myself on both mills and timber framing.
I've been a carp in my own reno and resto biz over 32 years so its not really new to me..just new tools and techniques.
I've written to lots of saw mill companies for their catalogs after reading their web sites and reading what y'all have to say...I'm trying to put together a comparison chart for myself with what I "think" my needs will be along side prices for the different mills and the extras I think I'd need most. I am trying to do an apples for apples list which is near impossible but I'm trying to get it as close as I can.
I think I've narrowed it down to about 4 mills. The WM, Peterson, Mobile Dimension, and possibly the Timber King and I have some back ups as well such as the Lucas...I know...thats hardly narrowing it down...lol.

In the mail yesterday I got a catalogs for the Log-Master. The thing looks pretty impressive. I really don't want to spend $23900. The 30HP  LM2 mill seems impressive at that price (as does the TK B-20 for a hair less $$), and the mill under it wouldn't be my choice at all so...I'm sort of doubting this mill will be my choice anyway but who knows? Sure looks strong and seems really loaded for the price. The thing I noticed, was I see no where about the Warranty. Most companies make that pretty prominent. Whats up with that?
I did do a search here and actually don't see all that much about this mill in the grand scheme of mills here.
One thing for sure..the mill seems huge. I'm thinking I might want to be a bit more portable than that but like I said...who knows till I actually move. I also heard a ways back that they had issues with the electrical parts to the mill? The Warranty is a concern.

I also need to keep in mind with timber frames I "might " need timbers cut at 10x10 which could limit the swing mill possibilities unless I want to spend the time dbl cutting/turning the logs. Six of one/half of the other I spose'. I'm not sure till the time comes how much of a need that will be.
Also regarding the TK1600- they seem limited to 17'+ foot logs...and the Lucas seems like a pain regarding- adjusting the heights (lot of running around).

I seem to lean mostly to the WM or the MD I think.
I better stop here cause I could ramble on for ever  smiley_old_guy
HTTP://www.cliffordrenovations.com
"How people treat you is their karma, how you respond is yours"

york

Hi,

ya got your age set at 156...thats much older than me....I would make my lean towards the  "WM"
Albert

andybuildz

 
Quote from: york on February 13, 2008, 12:12:42 PM
Hi,

ya got your age set at 156...thats much older than me....I would make my lean towards the  "WM"
156 years old..I know...makes me the oldest guy here I think...why I can remember when a smoke was a smoke and groovin' was groovin'....loll
And yeh...I bet way more people would point me to the WM but at my age I really could use the hydraulics. I wonder how much one trades off using another brand like say the TK B-20 or the MD?
then I get to thinking that without a back or trachoe to move things around with no hydros I could get a
WM 28 a bit souped up and have money left for some other helpful rigs like a cpl of arches to move the timbers?
HTTP://www.cliffordrenovations.com
"How people treat you is their karma, how you respond is yours"

tcsmpsi

Which of LogMaster's mills did you consider 'under' the LM2?  The LM2 is a lot of mill.  Member 379 hammerdown has one. The mill, I suppose which would most fit as 'right under' the LM2, would be the LM16-25J, then the LM15, then the manual LM1. 
What I have found about their warranty, is that it is as reasonable as I could expect from anyone.

Now, this LM1 might not appear on the website, but it is what I asked them to build.  The only thing I haven't been able to convince them of (as of yet, anyhow...Ed..Herman) is being a sponsor of the forum.   






If you have an idea of doing any milling to speak of, I personally consider at least a tractor with front end loader more necessary than hydraulics on the mill itself.  Moving around logs, lumber, slabs, sawdust, etc., etc. is a mighty large part of the process.  The actual milling, even with a manual mill, is the easy part.  Regardless of what brand of mill.   

That's a 20' opening in the mill shed. 

\\\"In the end, it is a moral question as to whether man applies what he has learned or not.\\\" - C. Jung

andybuildz

tcsmpsi,
        What I consider 'under' the LM2 is exactly what you stated...and the LM1 is in their catalogue which I'm looking at right now.
I totally agree with you about having a front end loader of some kind. With that the sky's the limit pretty much but in the interim...without the funds for one, us cavemen need to figure the next best thing and I think there's quite a few of us out there starting out with no tractor or similar. I've seen everything from the fetching archs with the mini to winch systems or both together to make due for the time being.

And far as the LM2... I  "DO" consider that a lot of machine. Maybe too big for what I think I'll be needing. Big in size that is...as far as being portable.

For a first timer I was thinking more along the lines of the WM28 souped up a bit or the WM 40 manual mill.
Its a ways off so I have time to do my research although I sure am getting itchy :-\
I'd love to get to a demo day somewhere on the right coast here this spring/summer. That'd be the ultimate thing to do really!!

One of THE main things that concerns me about any rig is customer support and "local" customer support would be the ultimate..as in within a few hours away +-.
While I consider myself a good carp I have to admit I'm no techie when it comes to machinary. I know when to pay someone and when to do things myself. Hence a good warranty and tech support (locally) is first on my list in a mill...or anything for that matter.

BTW...your set-up look looks great!!
HTTP://www.cliffordrenovations.com
"How people treat you is their karma, how you respond is yours"

tcsmpsi

Yep.  It was the local availability of the mfr which made my final decision on the specific mill.  LT 28 was in the top of the running, as was the Baker 18HD.  But, with LM being only about 100 miles away....well, you know.   Well, that and my technological simplicity.   :D

But, as to your question about their warranty, no worries there.  I've only had one minor thing which came under that heading, but they have supplied a couple of upgrades for no charge.

Blades and things I could get shipped on the next day, but I like driving up there and spending some time hashing out things, looking around and keeping in touch with all the folks.
\\\"In the end, it is a moral question as to whether man applies what he has learned or not.\\\" - C. Jung

andybuildz

In your Lake Livingston pictures...did you mill all that lumber for the house? And the cabinets too?  Even if you didn't mill the wood I can see you did build those cabs.Nice work dude!!
HTTP://www.cliffordrenovations.com
"How people treat you is their karma, how you respond is yours"

fencerowphil (Phil L.)

Hey, Andy

I wouldn't abandon the swingblade as a possibility.  In fact, if you are going without other
equipment at first, it might be the ideal machine.

I just finished an order of 24' & 18' long beams, seven of which were 8"X12" by 18'-20'.  The double-cuts
on a Peterson are easy and quick.  I have the 10" WPF, but an 8" would have done the job
just as well.  It takes longer to get the beam off the bunks than it does to saw it. 

I was using a very old Bobcat model 610 for the off-bearing.   
I had some custom light-weight forks made for it, or it would not have lifted the large beams at all.   

We cut them, then set them aside, then later followed up the surfacing with the Peterson, too.
The first part of the job was fine tuning the bunks with some added 2X3s spaced into
rough position with shims.  These added-on 2X3s were screwed to our main bunks with
Torx 3" screws deeply countersunk to avoid contact with expensive carbide. The built-up
bunks were roughly set with the shims, but machined exactly true by running a fresh 
ten-tooth blade on the saw and "milling" them all flat and parallel with the tracks.  We
were then able to reset each beam on these precision bunks and "plane" them true
and smooth by skimming a little off each surface.

To handle the beams after the fine surfacing, we made some small loops/slings of old
5/8"nylon rope.  Hook the loop on to the fork, run it under the beam, then move
the forks forward, so that the two forks slide  into the two ends of these pairs of
loops.    That way the lift doesn't stain or damage the beam.

Man are those beams straight and perdie now! 8)

Phil L.
Bi-VacAtional:  Piano tuner and sawyer.  (Use one to take a vacation from the other.) Have two Stihl 090s, one Stihl 075, Echo CS8000, Echo 346,  two Homely-ite 27AVs, Peterson 10" Swingblade Winch Production Frame, 36" and 54"Alaskan mills, and a sore back.

tcsmpsi

Those pics are from a long time ago, Andy.  I contracted my last full house building project in '89.  I've only been milling for a couple years.

I guess after 15 yrs or so, I just got to missing waking up with the little mounds of sawdust on the pillow that washed out of my eyes during the night.   :D

I've pretty well phased out of the cabinets and all, now.  Every now and then, someone might talk me into doing something unusual or something.  I would rather supply lumber for other folks to work in it now, though.

You know, there's been times when I've felt like I've handled more lumber than Weyerhauser.    ;D

When I first started, working with old Homer, we cut bird mouths out of rafters with a hatchet.

I had been looking at getting a sawmill for the last 20 yrs or so. 

Thanks.
\\\"In the end, it is a moral question as to whether man applies what he has learned or not.\\\" - C. Jung

StorminN

Andybuildz,

You mention that you might need to cut some 10"x10" timbers... if that's true, you might want to consider a bandmill before the Mobile Dimension, seeing as the MD will only cut an 8"x12" beam maximum without turning the log.

You can cut beams bigger than 8"x12" with an MD, but you can only cut one from each log... the method would be you basically make lumber from one side of the log (what would normally be slab or flitch wood on a band mill), then you would turn the log 90 or 180 degrees and make lumber from the other three sides, leaving the cant in the middle. This works OK for small to medium sized logs, say a 15" log that you're making 10"x10" cants from, but it gets to be a bear when you're trying to turn bigger logs by hand (no hydraulic turners on the standard MD trailer).

I guess it really depends on what size logs you think you'll be cutting, and what percentage of your beams will need to be bigger than 8"x12". I have an older MD mill and love it, I love that I can work well alone and it's faster than me, but there are days that I wish I had a band mill, too. Ideally, I would have both.

I should also mention... if you don't want to spend $24K, you might have to find a used MD, as I think a new Model 128 is about $26K with the trailer.

-Norm.
Happiness... is a sharp saw.

andybuildz

StorminN,
          Yeh...I know that about the sizes the MD cuts which is kind of a bummer cause I really like how that machine seems to shoot wood out. The wood seems to come out pretty flawlously and seems just about finished all around. Almost looks like it went through an edger/planer in one swoop...I will have to look into how much 10x10 I might need. I suppose if it wasnt much I could always take what I needed from a log and have another sawyer cut whats left for me if push came to shove. The list I have in front of me says the 4 1/4x12 1/4"cut  Model 128 is $ 17,200 and (trailer set up $8750)the winch production frame w/10" cut is about $22000.
and god knows how much to ship clear accross the country!! Used is always a huge option to consider for sure.
One thing about any of these mills like i said before is having support within close proximety to where you're working and MD is clear accross the country. Although I've heard little goes wrong with them. I spose DanG is one of the people to ask around here.
  I think I can see why most people end up with the WM though. The LT28 with accuset and LDR pack and the 25 HP motor I think still comes in under $15000....something like that.
If my house doesn't sell soon I'll be on my laptop on a heated street grill in a cardboard box in NYC anyway living vicariously though youz guys anyway so....lol

tcsmpsi-
>> When I first started, working with old Homer, we cut bird mouths out of rafters with a hatchet.<<

well...I'll be 157 in March so I hear ya on that lol.

>>I had been looking at getting a sawmill for the last 20 yrs or so. <<
You better get to work bro..ya prolly' only have another 100 years left to play with it.. 8)
HTTP://www.cliffordrenovations.com
"How people treat you is their karma, how you respond is yours"

rfalk

Andybuildz,
How are you going to dry those timbers to use in the frame? Most timberframers today use reclaimed timbers for frames because they are dry coming out of a building (about 12%) and only need a little of the exterior skin taken off (usually with a bandmill) before reuse. Building with green timbers is rife with problems...twisted and split beams, cracked drywall, racked doors and windows, etc. as they dry out in place. While building with green timber works for a factory or barn, it isn't the best solution for a heated living space. I don't want to sound negative, but IMHO it seems to me your might be better spent on purchasing reclaimed timbers and have someone clean them up for you....unless, of course, you want a saw for a sawing business or as a hobby. My $0.02

Bob Falk, USDA Forest Products Lab
Wood engineer, woodworker, chainsaw miller, bandsaw miller, all around lover of wood.
Stihl 026, 361, 076 AV

andybuildz

rfalk aka Bob
Good point. I think I brought this up somewhere else. I'm no TF expert by any stretch of the imagination (yet..lol) but I've read mixed theories about this. I think lots of people use green lumber. some try and let the frames sit for as long as possible to air dry while some enclose the exterior and also wait it out before finishing for a period of time. Some use as you say reclaimed and some standing dead wood. Kiln drying would be out of the question for most of us.
I also know working with dried wood to cut joints is probably 4x more difficult in dried timber.
For me..all my ceilings will be wood planking and a lot of the independent interior stick frsmed walls will be "within" the TF structure so there's no issue there.
After the SIPS are installed on walls that will be rocked I would imagine concessions will have to ba made where the rock touches the timbers...I've seen where the rock goes "behind" the timbers in a lot of cases. I'll figure out what needs to be done where the rock does touch the green timbers when the time comes. I'd think this has been done time and time again so I'm sure someones already figured this out for me..lol
Here's something I saved but I forget where I got it from...sorry.
Oh and one other thing...when you build a timber frame for yourself...at least for me, its because you love what you do.


Why are timber frames generally made with "green" wood?
Timber frames have traditionally been built using green timber – meaning timber that has been freshly felled and has a high moisture content.

The reasons were basically twofold:
· working dry timber with chisels, axes, adzes and planes is more difficult and time consuming
· the cost of stockpiling an inventory of large timber while it dries over the course of many years is cost prohibitive

As green wood dries out in the heated home, it shrinks. We have to allow for this shrinkage in our design and joinery. Does this affect the tightness of the frame? No, because we drawbore all of our joints. Drawboring is the process of misaligning the holes in the mortice and tenon so that when an oak peg is driven in it pulls the joint together tightly. As the frame dries, this joint maintains its tightness. All medieval and new world timber frames were pegged in this fashion.

Large section timber also cracks as it dries. This process is called checking, and is a natural consequence of a timber that is shedding moisture quickly. The checks do not pose a problem structurally. We slow the drying process by sealing the end grain of our timbers. It can be slowed further by not keeping the house too hot and dry during the first year of occupation.



What alternatives are there to using "green" wood?
If the idea of shrinking timber is something that is unappealing, there are two alternatives to using green wood: recycled timber, and kiln or radio frequency kiln dried timber.

Recycled timbers have become increasing popular for use in timber frames for environmental as well as aesthetic reasons. These timbers are salvaged from factories, mills, and barns that have been demolished. They are often of very high quality and are dimensionally stable as they've had decades to dry out. They also have their own character, often displaying old pockets and nail holes from a previous life. Using recycled timber also means less pressure on our forests. Because of the work involved in sourcing and supplying these timbers, they come with a premium price.

Kiln dried timbers are newly felled, but placed in special kilns for anywhere from several weeks to several months depending on the type of kiln being used. The water in the timber is driven out until the desired moisture content has been reached. This type of service is not available everywhere, and also comes with its own cost considerations.

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"How people treat you is their karma, how you respond is yours"

andybuildz

fencerowphil aka Phil L.
  Gee Phil...how'd I miss yer post :'( sorry.
I'm glad you said what you did about t he Peterson and swing mills in general b/c what you were saying about not needing certain equiptment when using a swinger vs what you would need with a band mill was what first had me thinking about swingers.
My initial flash was swinger/arches.....move n cut. Not sure how that plan would work out but that was the first thought I had. The MD really peaked my interest and the Peterson came into that bubble over my head as well. When the time comes I'll have to weigh it all out. I'm wondering how important it would be to have the $87500  MD trailor with it cuz that sure jacks the price way up there. Once again...when the time comes I'll see whats what with my needs. The Peterson comes in at less money for sure and is a good machine from what I gather. The thing I thougt about the Peterson was just what you said...the ease of dbl cutting. I'd have to think that for the most part 8x8's would be the main timber....again..I'll really have to look into it further.
Thinking about buying a tractor at that point is sorta out of the question unless by some miracle someone comes along and buys my house tomorrow
for asking price smiley_clapping smiley_blue_bounce smiley_bouncing_pinky

I'm gonna try and absorb what you just said about how you did those beams on the 2x3's....I may almost be 157 but lets not ferget I'm a beginner : ) ~
I really like that technique...I just need to visualize it a bit better.
Thanks bro!!!
andy
HTTP://www.cliffordrenovations.com
"How people treat you is their karma, how you respond is yours"

Kansas

We run both woodmizer and logmaster. I would strongly advise buying the woodmizer, if the choice is between those two. I have never been around a timberking sawmill. I can tell you the company is first rate on service, we had one of their edgers for years. A guy that works for us owns a lucas, and we hire him to break down the really big logs. They seem to be easy to use and easy to maintain, with the size of cut being the big limitation as described in the posts.
Just remember, beams are heavy. I would budget some money for a tractor, or older skid steer, or something, and go with a little less mill if need be. While hydraulics are really nice, its easier to manually turn a big log with a cant hook and equipment than try and fight moving around finished beams by hand, if it comes down to spending money between hydraulics and a tractor.

StorminN

Hi Andybuildz,

I'm not certain on the price of a new MD 128, I saw a new one being towed through town the other day, and $26K is what I heard he paid for it, trailer and all... if you've talked with Ron or some of the other folks at MD, I'm sure you've got a more accurate number.

If you don't plan on moving the mill, the trailer option is just that... an option. You can buy the MD with just the end stands and set it up stationary, no problem. When I bought my old MD, it had been set up stationary (no trailer) but I wanted the option of moving it... I called MD and found out what they wanted for a trailer and gulped a little... I didn't have the cash... so I went and looked at a 128 that was here in town on the older one-axle MD factory trailer (the newer ones are dual axle), and I ordered some steel and basically copied that trailer, for about $350 worth of steel, plus an old axle and hardware, and a couple of weekends and many night's time in welding and grinding. This was just the trailer, not the end stands or any of that... and I'm not saying mine is pretty, but it works. (Oh, and I didn't really know how to weld when I started, but I had three patient friends that can weld and came over at different times to help out / show me the way... that was a HUGE help). There are some pictures of the trailer assembly in my gallery.

But yeah... if you can get away with 8"x10"s or 8"x12"s for your project, I would recommend the MD, they really do produce some lumber quickly. I would second or third what some others have said... big beams are heavy! Buy a used tractor or something with forks... I wish I had (and I will some day)

Also... I believe in most building codes, you can use stress skin style panels on a timber frame, since the frame itself is the structural part... the stress skin panels have wallboard on the inside and OSB or plywood on the outside, with EPS foam in the middle... as opposed to the more common SIPs, which have OSB on both sides. I helped assemble a TF with stress skin panels for my uncle in RI back in 1990 or so... the panels were just spiked to the frame on the outside of the frame, so all the wallboard goes "behind" the frame, like you mentioned... no worry of it cracking when the frames dries. He got some checks in his frame, but I think he likes the character they add. This TF house was replacing his 1660's farmhouse that had burned down the year before.

I also really like fencerowphil's method of "planing" those beams... I've got the metal bunks on my MD almost perfectly level (shimmed them there), but I really like that method of "milling" the wood bunks down and then using them as the reference to set your beams on... very cool!

P.S. Best of luck selling the house, Andy...

-Norm.
Happiness... is a sharp saw.

andybuildz

Phil
    Quick question about the Peterson being you brought that up.
Why do they say the ATS is geared more towards hobbyists than the WPF which they say will  give the higher production rate? You can get both with the same size engine. Whats the story on that?
Also...even the WPF is sorta portable isn't it?
I know you have to deal with two cranks vs one but still...and I think the ATS is limited to 20' ?
How portable IS the WPS exactly?
Thanks
andy
edit: Just looked in the FOR SALE section here and noticed the WPS "frame" that Caption has for sale. I can see why that isn't so portable. I guess its portable to an easily accessed open site that your truck can pull into.
HTTP://www.cliffordrenovations.com
"How people treat you is their karma, how you respond is yours"

379hammerdown

I have a Log-Master LM2 and I absolutely love it. Having everything hydraulic makes life super easy... the only thing thats difficult is handling all the lumber that you cut up! There are many great mills out there, and the Log-Master is one of them. Its easy to setup, and easy to take down, and its built VERY strong so those large logs that you promise you wont cut ever again don't damage it. I put that to the test last week! Customer service is there every time I need it and they always exceed my expectations. It is indeed a heavy mill and you'd want a 3/4ton to pull it.

brdmkr

Quote from: andybuildz on February 14, 2008, 07:56:43 AM
Phil
    Quick question about the Peterson being you brought that up.
Why do they say the ATS is geared more towards hobbyists than the WPF which they say will  give the higher production rate? You can get both with the same size engine. Whats the story on that?
Also...even the WPF is sorta portable isn't it?
I know you have to deal with two cranks vs one but still...and I think the ATS is limited to 20' ?
How portable IS the WPS exactly?

I have a Lucas, and I imagine the higher production is very much related to where you are when adjusting the saw head up and down.  With the Lucas and ATS, you must leave the saw head to adjust up and down.  With the WPF, the adjustment is on the carriage itself.  While I never thought about it when buying my mill, I can see where the time savings would really add up.
Lucas 618  Mahindra 4110, FEL and pallet forks, some cant hooks, and a dose of want-to

Ivey

Andy, I have a logMaster LM-4 .  Have had it for a little over a year.
Have only had one problem with it and that was the hydro pump that
went out (started leaking) soon after i got home with it. One phone call
and I had one at my door the next afternoon. The sawmill is strong and,
heavy built. I am sure that WM and most of the other larger sawmills will
do you a good job. I like the LogMaster because its mine. ;D Good luck!
Logmaster LM-4 , New Holland 4x4 w/FEL , Ford L-9000 tandem w/ prentice TS-33 loader, Nyle L200M, Cook's 4" board edger, John Deere 310se backhoe w/ forks

andybuildz

A lot of mills are great no doubt with good track records but the question I have is, how important does one feel about having the company local? When a mill or any piece of machinery breaks down what are some of the alternatives with the warranty.
If the company is local you can bring it back to them for a quick fix or they can easily come to you..how ever they work it... but what if they're not local. What if the issue is beyond the owners capability to fix it even if one has the parts? I've read here where some people waited a month or so for a rep/mechanic to come fix the mill...and well respected companies too.
As for companies like WM and similar it seems they have outlets all over the place making it a bit easier to get a mill repaired/serviced. So how DOES that work exactly?
HTTP://www.cliffordrenovations.com
"How people treat you is their karma, how you respond is yours"

Norwiscutter


When I buy another mill, it will likely be a WM, and the reason is not so much because of the quality of the product, but because of the local sales and service rep. I have met and talked with Steve a number of times, without any possible financial gain for him at the time, and he still has gone way beyond what is necessary in terms of interaction with the customer.   

What has often been said here is very true... you will get quality results from any of the brands on the Left. They are established manufactures who have their act together in all manners of conducting their business. I don't want to take away from the "small guy with the new product" but I really think that any company in the small sawmill industry that isn't advertising through the FF isn't putting enough thought into their marketing efforts. Jeff is a pretty reasonable guy, and I think would be willing to accommodate most reasonable offers, or horse trade a bit if the company couldn't come up with the capital to pay him outright.

We all know what other sawmill type message boards are out there, and this site is the absolute standard, so why aren't more people advertising here? I mean, in 2000, I would cut a guy some slack for not having a web presence, but in 2008? You got to be kidding.


I looked hard a couple of years back at the Log Master mills, but came to the conclusion that the Baker mills were of similar design and of better quality. I could be wrong as I have no hands on experience to back up my assertions, but the Baker mills seam similar in design to Logmaster, but more thoroughly engineered. I think that if I had to choose a mill that would most likely be able to still cut wood after being dumped off the bed of a semi going down the highway, it would be a Baker.




Si vis pacem, para bellum.

paka

log master LT16-25j  or timber king 1600.I have tell monday to chose PLEASE HELP!! Wich one?? :P :-\ I'v readand read and cant diside.Now I'm asking you old timer's to help a [new] old timer :o :D
do't die with your music still in you!!!Paka

andybuildz

Quote from: paka on February 17, 2008, 12:13:22 AM
log master LT16-25j  or timber king 1600.I have tell monday to chose PLEASE HELP!! Wich one?? :P :-\ I'v readand read and cant diside.Now I'm asking you old timer's to help a [new] old timer :o :D
WoodMizer LT28 souped up or LT40...lol
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"How people treat you is their karma, how you respond is yours"

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