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What would you do with 400mmbdf?

Started by KnotBB, February 08, 2008, 04:44:44 PM

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KnotBB

Interesting item in the news in the Jan edition of this news letter

http://owic.oregonstate.edu/newsletter/.

I've talked with the County agent and what he's looking for is something to do with all the wood on the ground.  What's down is equal to the annual harvest for the county.  There is a paper mill within a reasonable distance but only TWO sawmills, one huge and one small.  They don't have the capacity or the flexibility to deal with a disaster of this size.  This is the area of Oregon that had the infamous Tillamook Burn.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tillamook_Burn
Most of the wood is considered commodity wood (what ever that means) but there are some larger trees, 30"+ at 16 feet+.
Most of the wood is Western Hemlock and Sitka Spruce with a smattering of maple, fir, and red alder.
The County Agent told me the estimates of downed wood did not reflect accurately the loss to privately owned timberland, only City, Count, and State.
In 18 months, other than the old growth fir, this wood will only be good for chips and firewood.
I'm sending him some ideas of how a mobile saw could help him but my mind is limited (probably genetics) on ideas.  So I thought I'd throw out the idea here and see what we as a group could come up with.  I've sent him links to the WM and Timber King business plans.
One thought I had was to contact manufactures about getting Demo units to come in and show capabilities.  WM did it for Katrina.  I've also suggested that some agency here buy equipment and lease/rent/loan it to wanna-a-be mill operators.  Maybe even get a DH mobile kiln lined up?  That has been done in California.

One of the ironies of this situation is that Astoria is on the Colombia River and is a major seaport that exports logs to China, Japan and Korea.  Part of what they're looking for is job creation in wood products.  What comes around seems to go around, yes?



Steve
To forget one's purpose is the commonest form of stupidity.

Ron Wenrich

400 Million bf of timber is quite a bit of wood.  The largest mill in our reports that he does 50 MMbf/yr, so that's an 8 yr supply.  Even if you got a lot of portable mills, you won't put much of a dent into it.

When we had a tornado rip up 30 miles of state forest, someone came up with the bright idea of putting in a wood powered electric generator.  The estimate was that there was enough down material to last 20 years.  Unfortunately, the material would only last if harvested and piled someplace where it didn't degrade.  So, it never happened. 

The best you could hope for is that you could export the logs and chips and maybe a few mills could be used to make lumber.  But, markets are a bit of a problem right now.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

kderby

I wrote the County Agent a note as well.  I suggested some markets for rough sawn /green material.  I am a seven hour drive away from the event.  Trucking is the issue I will face if I pick up any of the volume.   

The material blew down in December and the commercial lumber market is in the toilet.  It will take some entrepeneurial thinking to get the material going somewhere profitable.  This is an opportunity for bold movers.  The material is salvage so it has to be processed.  Next summer it will become fuel.  Acres and acres of red slash will be another impending disaster in August.

I look forward to the rest of the groups ideas and input.

Kderby 

beenthere

Might find uses for a small fraction of the total....

For the rest, play the violin music soft and slow.   ::) ::)
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

zopi

Very tall fence around D.C.? ;D

And we thought Bibbyman had too many logs.


Got Wood?
LT-15G GO chassis added.
WM sharpener and setter
And lots of junk.

KnotBB


I like the fence idea and I'm sure it would need special (expensive) wood to do it.  Something termite and bug resistant. 8)

I just hope they see an opportunity to get some diversity in the economy.  I've commited myself to help anyway I can.

I've more or less offered to take my saw up there for a demo if they'll cover my expenses.  I've got relatives near by that I might be able to camp at.  We'll see what happens.  Hope somebody here can help with ideas. 

Steve

 
To forget one's purpose is the commonest form of stupidity.

Tom

If I had 400 million board feet of logs, I would be looking for a wholesaler.

............and definitely a Forester to handle the harvest, the bid and the sale.

Then I'd just back out and wait to collect my money.

LOGDOG

Steve,

   What can a man buy the timber for? Either by the foot or by the ton? Have they said?

LOGDOG

SwampDonkey

In 1995 there was 1600 acres blown down in central New Brunswick, about 40,000 cords, and several companies moved in and cleaned it up over a one year period. That's roughly 20,000 mbfm. Roughly 0.8 M mbf are harvested from NB crown land annually. So that was < 3%.

Note: That figure is actually higher than historical harvest levels and we are in an economic down turn. Doesn't make sense to me. One thing to keep in mind, even though mills have closed they continue to harvest wood from their crown allocation.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

KnotBB

Logdog,

I don't have a real good answer as to price but here's some info.

Most of the wood is hemlock and Stika spruce.  Hemlock is suitable for framing lumber, timbers, ties and 1" and 1 1/2" clears are used as moulding stock (bigger trees).  The spruce doesn't start putting on "good" wood 'till it's about 50 years old (good like in musical wood or tight grained). It can be used for framing/studs and timbers.  Both woods are white in color.  The spruce is billed as the worlds stronges for it weight and is used to make wooden airplanes which was a big deal during WWI.  Neither species is very rot resistance so that don't last long laying on the ground or in a wet environment.

There is a pending timber sale listed on the State forestry web page for this area.  http://www.odf.state.or.us/DIVISIONS/management/asset_management/Prospectus/08-20%20Notice-Bid-TE.pdf
It says Hemlock stumpage and other conifirs are a no bid , (like in don't argue) speices and will be sold as part of the fir sale @ $112/m.  This sale also includes Utility/pulp alder at $25/ton.  Which applies to the too small, too large or too rotten for saw log.  Not much too large 32"+ big end alder but there should be a few pieces.  You have to add logging costs. The loggers I know get paid based on tonnage off the landing and I don't know the equation.  Log out here mostly cut at 32', 8 foot multipilies.

It is a very good posibility that this sale will be canceled because of the amout of windfall timber that needs to be dealt with.  The shear quantity of wood would seem to dictate a drop in price.  I just don't know what they're going to do and they probably don't either.  That's the problem.

Here's an equations for you:  A good load of logs will have between 8 -10,000 bdf, a bad load can go as low as 4,000bdf and let's not figuring pulp.  If 20% of the downed timber is saw log size that would be 20% of 400mmbfd or 80mmbfd or 80000mbfd.
Divide that figure by the average log truck load, say 8,000 per load, you'd have 10,000 loads of logs and only dealt with 20% of the wood.  And all this during a depressed log market.   
hmm?  Maybe I've just scared myself.

Steve
To forget one's purpose is the commonest form of stupidity.

SwampDonkey

"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

SwampDonkey

Quote from: KnotBB on February 09, 2008, 10:05:57 PM

The spruce doesn't start putting on "good" wood 'till it's about 50 years old (good like in musical wood or tight grained). It can be used for framing/studs and timbers.  Both woods are white in color.  The spruce is billed as the worlds strongest for it weight and is used to make wooden airplanes which was a big deal during WWI.  Neither species is very rot resistance so that don't last long laying on the ground or in a wet environment.

Spruce is highly prized here in the NE, especially black spruce for pulp and engineered trusses. One I-Joist mill that made these trusses had to shut down because they couldn't procure enough local black spruce. Trouble is this day in age shipping by rail is no longer cheap. They decided to tear up all our tracks back in the 80's that the old timber barons built. Back in the beginning of the industry in these parts it was moved by rail and water and men worked for nearly nothing.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Meadows Miller

Gday

The Salvage work in the Tillamook Burn went for 21 years which was done by a lot of small contractors .And Im intrested if the forest service or private forest owners are willing to setup salvage permits for smaller Logging Sawmilling  contractors of say 500 tons per month as I am planing a working holiday over there early next year
aftrer I sell the house Im building at the moment and ill have about 140k left .If I can get a permit I might just buy myself a new sawmill ,truck .2 loaders and a skidder as I currently deal with the 3 largest timber recyclers in Aust and they are allways looking for douglas fir  and spruce  from 6x1 thru to 14x24 and would be willing to pay me $1.30 to $1.70 per bft Gos as long as is cert as salvage timber

Would You be able to let me know if there is any chance of getting a permit to do salvage over there with theeither private or the forest service .

Reguards Chris

4TH Generation Timbergetter

KnotBB

Let me do some checking for people to cantact and I'll get back

Steve
To forget one's purpose is the commonest form of stupidity.

KnotBB

Not to be discouraging but some of the big differences comparing now to the Tillamook Burn are: 
Lots of what burned was was areas with Old Growth Fir which is pretty rot resistant vs what has blown down is mostly Western Hemlock which is not rot resistant.
The Burn had lots of larger high value trees compared to what's what's there now.  Lots of the wind damage was in areas that are just pulp wood. 
The Tillamook Burn wasn't one fire but a series of fires over about a 5 to 10 year period which would skew the figures for the salvage period.
Lots of the wind damage wood is jack strawed making it very dangerous to cut.  At least one faller has aready been killed and maybe more. (Some won't even try because of the danger level).

On the bright side 10% of 400+mmbdf is still a lot of wood. And the State of Washington has the same situation.  And it's cheap with some stumpage as low as $50/m.  http://www.odf.state.or.us/DIVISIONS/management/asset_management/SaleNotices.asp

My first contact point and a good place to start would be the county/Oregon State University agent:  glenn.ahrens@oregonstate.edu
His office is in Astoria, OR, right on the Columbia River.  He'd know about private and city/county timber and could give you a lead to Fed.  government contacts.

Go for it!
To forget one's purpose is the commonest form of stupidity.

Meadows Miller

Thanks steve

Yeah Ive got he book here had it since i was 10 (well read) I have done a fair bit off salvage logging over here brought my 1st Chainsaw at 13yo .Risk is somthing that can be caculated .a good harvesting plan , not rushing yourself and having the experiance  to spot tension & compression in windfall timber are the main keys to not getting injured Ive had 14 years w/out an accident or being complasent.

Ive just got a  question for you

how many years do you get over there bfore the timber is no good ( 2 years in aust)
as the buyer isint  concerned with the folowing stain , splits ,  minimal rot and the lengths can be random 8' to 24' aslong as it has certifcation. talked with customers today there wanting mainly 8x8" to12x12" matiral.

reguards chris
4TH Generation Timbergetter

KnotBB

There are some old growth fir (like 36"+) in the wind damage area.  If left lying the heart wood will last 50 to 100 years.  The sap wood will be bug eaten soon, say three years.  But in general the percentage of fir is small. 
There are many large Sitka spruce (30+ inches) and I'd give them three to five years but again the sap wood will be a total waste in three and the same for 3" on either end.
Hemlock, say up to 25" won't last 3 years as far as the local mills are concerned, don't know about the larger ones or if there are any.  The local mill won't want them after next summer because of stain and bug holes.

There is a city owned industrial site in Astoria that has a recycle center in it that takes woody biomass.  I'd think that a person could swing a deal with them to either buy the waste wood or at least take it for nothing.  I'm talking 200 yards distance from where I looked at as sawing location. 

Getting the wood "certified" might be something else.  I don't know the process but get the feel that there is a bunch of hoops to jump through.  What do you need on your end to satisfy the customers requirements?

I do know where there is some reclaimed fir that is in process of being "certified" as green.  They were raft boom logs from the Columbia River, 12" x 12" might be a problem but 8" x 8"  are easy and up to 40' long.  We could start on that next week!

Just curious but what kind of saw would you be looking to get to salvage this wood?
Had a message from a fellow that read your first inquiry that wants to come see (and help?) you if you can get this to fly. 

Cheers

Stevem

   
To forget one's purpose is the commonest form of stupidity.

Meadows Miller

Gday Steve

Thanks for that . that at least gives us a few years ahead of us doing this work . as far as cert goes . Forest service contract or Log dockets stating Salvage Logs or Forest Salvage . that the customer can sight and have a copy eg. scaned email will keep them happy overhere . I will be talking to the Buyers again on monday they seem very Intrested .

What sort Mill do You run as I might try to organize a sample run eg 13 to 26000 bft for each customer before christmas . I am going to try to get over there  by november for a flying visit 2 to4 weeks To get my bearings and help get the samples milled . Will probably get it shiped with one of the Big Boys as they are probably still shipping about 75000 ton a month Wcoast DF to Aust .

The Mill I will be buying will be either be a auto or manual meadows #2 sawmill with a vertical 3 saw edger ,48" bottom saw and 36" topsaw and chipper to be able to handel the rotten outer sections of log.(split them up the guts for the chipper or bundel it and give it away as firewood depends on what the market is doing overthere) I will have a better idea when I get there and can sort things out.
Its not going to be a high recovery job. Im expecting to get only 33 to 55% rec depending on the orders and log quality .

If its under 50 m3 per month sawn I will just get You or other sawmillers overthere to fill orders and i will arrange payment and shipping .

I want to Hook in to This .as  Ive wanted to do something like this for along time .

reguards Chris McMahon






4TH Generation Timbergetter

KnotBB

Sorry about the delay getting back but have had to deal with a funeral.

I have an 8" Lucas, standard track length, but with the 9" adapter kit.

You may be able to strike a deal with the local paper mill for the waste/chips.  The chip market is the only thing holding up the log price.  Since timber prices are down chip prices are up.

I've got one other lead in the area for a contact point that we might be able to use to advantage. 



To forget one's purpose is the commonest form of stupidity.

Meadows Miller

Gday Steve

Sorry to hear about your loss.

On the timber front they are keen to go . I will get some firm Idea on sizes in the next few weeks Ill try to keep them under 8" wide for a start prob some flooring lining stock eg 150mm 6" by 30mm 5 4'' . 8' 12' 16' and 20' foot lengths rough sawn  block packed to get you started in the next month or two. If your intrested  Steve.

reguards Chris
4TH Generation Timbergetter

KnotBB

Here's a link you might want to look at.

http://www.odf.state.or.us/DIVISIONS/management/asset_management/SalesDownLoad.asp?Key=M

The word I have from a local timber buyer is, "the state is always behind" .  But you can look through the recent timber sales and get some some idea of what past sales have done. 
One caution about the weather in the area is it RAINS a lot.

Also you can to go to history.com and view some of the "Ax Men" episodes and get a feel for the land shape.  It's filmed in the area we're talking about.  Not a lot of flat land in the area.  That's the big reason it's so dangerous.  Really need to pick and choose your job site


Alway interested in sawing and learning.     
To forget one's purpose is the commonest form of stupidity.

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