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Help with selection of Mill purchase

Started by woodworker9, February 07, 2008, 03:49:38 PM

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woodworker9

Hello to all on this great forum.  This is my first of many, many questions.  I've been reading and learning here for over a year now, but this is my first time starting a topic.  I've searched what I can, but need some additional help.

I'm a woodworker by trade.  I've been having another sawyer with a sawmill saw my logs for me for over 10 years now.  Without getting into it, he has become unreliable, and I've decided to get a mill.  I will be sawing for my own use, but also to sell hardwoods to woodworkers.  I've got a good network of woodworkers near me, as I teach some classes, and know quite a few folks in the industry.  I've never had a problem selling off my "overstock" in hardwoods, so I'm looking at this as a small additional profit center to my already established business of 20+ years.

After much study, I'm basically stuck between a bandmill and a swing mill.  Eventually, if all goes well, I can see having both, but for now, due to the present economic situation of the US, I want to start small.  I have a need for 4/4, 5/4, 6/4, and 8/4 stock, as well as a need for wide boards. 

If I get a bandmill, I'm gonna buy a Woodmizer.  I've only been able to read about them, both online and in this forum.  In wanting to start out with as little invested as possible, I was looking at the LT 15.  However, my concerns are with the mill being so basic as to not having toe boards, log turner, etc.....  I do have a bobcat and forks, so log loading is not a concern.  But, not having any experience with a mill, I don't know if using the bobcat to turn larger logs is even feasible without wrecking the mill.

If upgrading to a LT 28 or even a manual LT 40, I don't know what the extra's on each mill will do for me, and whether or not it is worth it.  Also, I don't seem to see many LT 28's around, and the Woodmizer guy in Wisconsin, (the closest to me at about a 5 hour drive each way) doesn't even have one to demo, so can you see my dilemma.

I'm afraid of buying the LT 15, and not being able to deal with taper, turning large logs, etc....  Am I not understanding this correctly.  Is there a reasonable way to deal with taper on a small manual mill like the LT 15, and should I even be concerned about it.   I've learned, mostly here and through my own miserable experiences, that the best wood for woodworking is near the bark, not the pith.  I want to be able to maximize my yield of what I call quality lumber.

OK,  I'm long winded as heck here, so I'll wait for some of your great input, and ask more questions as I learn.

Thanks a lot, and I hope you all don't mind me being a pest with many questions in the upcoming months.  I'm looking forward to this like a small kid in a candy store.

Woodworker9 
aka Jeff
03' LT40HD25 Kohler hydraulic w/ accuset
MS 441, MS 290, New Holland L185

Tom

First you need to determine how many logs you are going to be cutting.  If the quantity is 2-5 a week and no more than 10 on occassion, an LT15 would be a good piece of equipment.

Handling taper can be as easy as putting a lever under the end of the log and placing a wedge between the log and the bed of the mill. No rocket science, It's just that you have to stop and do it.  The more you get into a production atmosphere, the less you want to stop to do menial tasks, even if they are important to the end quality of the job. ...ergo, more hydraulics, more horsepower, more equipment, more help, etc.

It is my opinion that a little bandmill is more friendly to logs in the 12"-9" range than a swing mill.

An LT15, or similar mill, will usually be a stepping stone to a bigger mill, but, it doesn't necessarily follow that the LT15 will be disposed of when the bigger mill is acquired.

I was told some good information one time by an old tractor salesman.  I was concerned that the little tractor I was looking at was big enough.  The salesman said, "How fast do you want to finish?"   Then He explained that the most tractors would get the job done, but a bigger one would probably do it faster.   I got the smaller tractor and never have regretted it.  I also found that the little tractor would do things and go places that the big tractor would not have gone.    So, How much time do you want to devote to the sawing end of your business?  How much time will the rest of your business allow for you to devote to sawing?

When you boil a little bandsaw down to its common denominator, it's the same blade being driven by different sized wheels and different horspower.  The blade, even on different manufacturer's machines should perform the same if the  quality of the machine is comparable.

So, the first thing is to determine how much money you have to spend and buy the mill with the most horsepower and log handling features available.  Horsepower is a good thing.  :D

If I were you, I wouldn't even be concerned about buying a used machine for my first machine. Most, if not wrecked, will perform admirably.






woodmills1

look for a used hydraulic if you work alone.
James Mills,Lovely wife,collect old tools,vacuuming fool,36 bdft/hr,oak paper cutter,ebonic yooper rapper nauga seller, Blue Ox? its not fast, 2 cat family, LT70,edger, 375 bd ft/hr, we like Bob,free heat,no oil 12 years,big splitter, baked stuffed lobster, still cuttin the logs dere IAM

pineywoods

I would definitely look for a used bandmill. Swingers have their place, but you can't very well upgrade them. I can't speak for the others, but I can the mizers. I bought a used manual LT40 with over 4000 hrs on it. that was 5 years ago. so far I have replaced some belts and bearings and changed out the motor for a different type even. Put brushes in the up-down motor, and replaced some rusted-out sheet metal. That's about it as far as maintenance goes. Added my own hydraulics, well worth the time and expense but that's another story. As long as the frame is intact, these mills can be put in tip-top shape for very little money.
As far as wrecking the mill, never heard of anyone doing that. Do have a friend who bent the backstop on his LT40. BUT, he used a 6000 lb clark forklift to do it.
Whichever way you decide to go, there's more help and encouragement available here than you'd ever dream.. Go for it...
1995 Wood Mizer LT 40, Liquid cooled kawasaki,homebuilt hydraulics. Homebuilt solar dry kiln.  Woodmaster 718 planner, Kubota M4700 with homemade forks and winch, stihl  028, 029, Ms390
100k bd ft club.Charter member of The Grumpy old Men

woodworker9

Tom
Thanks for the thoughtful response.  I do really appreciate it.

In the beginning, I will probably be sawing 10 to 15 logs per month.  Most of the logs that I come across are in the 15" to 30" diameter range.  The sources I get my logs from know my end use, and don't even call me with the smaller stuff, as I've asked them for larger ones.  With the large amount of growth in this area, there seems to be an abundance of trees being cut down.  On more than just an occassion, I get some logs that would be perfect for a swingmill, in the extra large range.

I've only seen a couple of used LT 15's for sale, and they have sold for within $1000.00 of new price.  For that, I'd prefer to spend the extra, and get a new one.  And, with that in mind, I am certainly not worried about selling it if I want to upgrade.  I don't want my first experience with a mill to be fixing somebody elses problems, as I have ZERO time for that.  However, I wouldn't hesitate to purchase a slightly used mill in great shape for the right price.  (Sounds obvious, huh?)  I check sawmillexchange, as well as here, frequently, and mostly have seen 10 year old mills with lots of hours and use.  That's not gonna be for me until I know what the heck I'm doing.  I figure that I can't diagnose a problem if I don't know what it is.

In your opinion, with the 25 hp upgrade, which I would definately spend the money on, would the LT 15 be able to handle logs well in the 15" to 24" capacity.  I know the specs from Woodmizer say "yes", but I'm looking for practical experience here.

Also, what about turning logs in that size range, 10 to 16 feet long?  Am I asking for a problem relying on the bobcat.  I'm 6'1",  250 lbs, ex-jock, so I'm no wimp, but I have never even had a logrite in my hands, so I don't know what to expect.

Thanks again for the help.

03' LT40HD25 Kohler hydraulic w/ accuset
MS 441, MS 290, New Holland L185

Dave Shepard

That LT15 should do what you want. I run two LT40 manuals. One has the manual tapers, however I broke one of them with a HUGE pine log, so now I just use wedges. I keep a variety of wedges and bits of 2x4 on the log deck, and use a Hi-Lift jack to lift the huge logs, it works well. I would say that turning logs in the size range you have mentioned with a peavey should not be a problem. I have turned logs 36"x16' with a peavey on the LT40 before, but it isn't a lot of fun.


Dave
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

Larry

Most logs I turn with a canthook...get the Logrite.  For those too big wrap a chain around the log like a yo-yo and pull up with the loader.  If you want to get creative a boat winch can also be made into a turner.

Toe boards are no biggie either...as Tom wrote a lever along with a wedge is all you really need.  If you can work steel I have a tutorial on how to build a roller toe board on the cheap, somewhere round here.

That 25 HP should zip right through logs.  I have a lot of pics of my 16 HP making 29" wide slabs...slowly.

A new thread was just started today about the large number of good used mills now on the market...sure wouldn't hurt to see what you can find.  Check craigslist and eBay...and be prepared to move fast to catch a good one with low hours along with the right price.
Larry, making useful and beautiful things out of the most environmental friendly material on the planet.

We need to insure our customers understand the importance of our craft.

zopi

From a guy, who, three weeks ago had not ever operated a bandmill (chainsaw mill, yes) and have only seen one or two
operate, The lt15 is da bomb! yes, I would like to have hydraulics, and have the thing on a trailer..buncha stuff I'd like..

The mill is good stuff, easy to operate, easy to maintain, and easy to work on.

the drawbacks...manual everything, loading, turning, offbearing, setworks, and mill drive.  But it's not that big a deal,
turning a big log, say, 20-28 inches is a pain, depending on how you are cutting it..but there are ways to deal with that,
a little winch boom behind the mill, with a timber hook, wrap the cable around the log (over the top) and winch away..norwood builds a setup like that..i'm about to build one for mine..the other drawback is that the mill is waay too close to the ground...but it can be set up on blocks so there is not as much bending and stretching..you already have a loader so that is a no brainer..raise it up!

I just went back and read your original post..as big as you are..don't even worry about using the cant hook to turn the logs..
I'm 6' 140 lbs (on a good day) and can load and turn an 9' 20" pine with little difficulty..do get the Logrite tho'..must have.

Working a log bigger than about 24 inches on it is a pain..if you will do mostly logs that big, you may be happier with a
larger used mill...if you get a used mill from WM I believe they bring the mill maintenance up to date..

The really big stuff can be quartered with a chainsaw..either freehand or with a CSM..but it's alot of work.

By all means, get the biggest engine you can afford...the 15hp works well for me, it slows down alot on logs bigger than 20"
or so, but it's the difference of maybe 5-7 seconds in the cut on a 20 incher, vice 10-12...big deal..you are making twice the lumber in the same distance...I would like to have the 25, it would make hard wood go alot quicker.

Tom pretty much hit the nail on the head about mill capacity (one of these days I will know as much as Tom.. ;D)
If you are working for production numbers...you want something a bit bigger..I come home from work and go out
and saw for a couple hours...maybe a half hour actually cutting lumber and the rest stacking, or cleaning or rolling logs..
and will ordinarily make 150- 200 bdft depending on what I am cutting..i've cut..ummm...call it 20 logs in the last week and a half..couple or three hours in the evenings..

For a guy who never operated one before, it took me maybe a couple of days to get the hang of it..it'll take awhile yet
to be any good..but that is just experience I'd imagine..

If you want wide boards..the band is maybe the best bet..slabber attachments on the swingers will do it..but they seem
a little spendy to me...I don't know alot about swingers..want one tho...and I certainly won't knock them..

Are you going to saw primarily for furniture grade wood, or are you doing trim carpentry..or something else?

what lengths are you looking at? Both the lt15 and the swingers are easy to add length to..I am glad I got the
extra bed section..can squeak a 17' log up on there..16 is easy.

Like I say..i'm a nOOb..but in the couple of weeks since I got the band, I am totally sold on both WM and
the bandsaws..and I KNOW I'd still be pretty much clueless without this forum...

now, I just have to learn something about lumber.. :D


Got Wood?
LT-15G GO chassis added.
WM sharpener and setter
And lots of junk.

gharlan

 I bought a used Norwood about 9 months ago. It is their lumbermate 2000 and Is probably very comparable to the  LT-15. I have a 20 honda on mine and the power is plenty so the 25 would be great. I load and turn my logs with a tractor. I can put forks on but have not had a lot of luck with it. The depth between the bed and log is only several inches and I discovered it was quite easy to slide the mill while trying to get under the log. You would have better visibility on the bobcat so that would help. I have gone to wrapping a chain around the log so it will turn in the direction I want when I lift. I will say working it alone  is very slow. I do the same for taper--lift one end and cut a wedge to size with the chainsaw.  I have probably only cut around 1500 bd feet of usable lumber so far and I will tell you that I lust for hydraulics. Once I get a cant to a size I can handle I can produce a lot of lumber quickly, its getting to that stage that is the problem. I find myself taking a few more cuts on a face than I want just so it will be a little easier to turn by hand as getting the tractor is a slow process. I suspect that using the manual mill would be a lot like working in your wood shop with only a table saw for a power tool. It would all get done but at a slower pace.

I do not live in a part of the country that has timber. This is farm land so the logs I come by are few and far between. In my eagerness i can say I have cut several that were just firewood but I am learning. If I thought I could produce some marketable lumber with my mill I would upgrade to a used hydraulic mill. I enjoy cutting logs and seeing what I find inside but at the end of a day on the mill I am quite tired and then I have a stack to sticker. Maybe the best advise would be get a manual mill and see if you enjoy it. If so keep your eyes peeled for a hydraulic.  good luck and happy sawing----gary

woodworker9

I'm gonna get on up to Woodmizer in Wi and check out the LT 15 and the LT 40.  That will help me alot in making a decision.  Thanks for all the good info.  It seems that starting with the small mill and seeing how it goes makes alot of sense.  It'll probably end up being what I do.  I'll continue to ask questions as I think of them.

03' LT40HD25 Kohler hydraulic w/ accuset
MS 441, MS 290, New Holland L185

Furby

WM headquarters in Indy is only about 4 hours or so from you depending on when ya pass through Chicago.
Seems like I'd go there instead of 5 hours to WI.

gharlan

Sounds like a great plan but you might want to make sure you are in a vehicle with a good hitch!

woodworker9

Furby
4 hours to Indy, maybe at 4:00 AM.  Trying to get through Chicago, even going around, is always an adventure, and I'd rather go North, anyway.  It takes me 2 hours to get to a Cubs and Blackhawks game.

gharlan
I here ya on the hitch.  I'm a bit afraid I might drag back something bigger than I need! 

03' LT40HD25 Kohler hydraulic w/ accuset
MS 441, MS 290, New Holland L185

beenthere

Besides, then he has a possible chance of a Roxburger on his way up or on the way back... ;D ;D 8)

(woodworker9...let that be an invitation..for sure)
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Furby

I've spent the last two years delivering in and around Chicago and that means as many as 6 days a week through there at times.
It isn't that bad and you don't need to do it that early.
I wouldn't have given you that time frame if I didn't know for a fact that it was possible.
If you need some travel tips through there drop me a note. :)

woodworker9

beenthere

Hmmmmm.............what's a Roxburger?? ???  Sounds good!

Furby

Thanks for the offer on help.  I'm a  born and raised Chicagoan.  I guess I just hate going through there, and it's definately why I moved way out to Crystal Lake.   Besides, I love driving through Wisconsin.  It's just purtier....

My son's a hockey player, senior in high school.  We travel all over North America.  In the last month, I've driven to New York and Pennsylvania for tournaments.  Traffic around "the horn" was horrible both times.  And, to make it real fun, I hit a snowstorm on the way back on New Years Eve.  Now that was real fun!  Four big rigs jackknifed, and in the ditch.  One on it's side.
03' LT40HD25 Kohler hydraulic w/ accuset
MS 441, MS 290, New Holland L185

beenthere

Roxburger??

Stop by the Roxbury tavern, (only open for lunch on Fridays if'n it is winter season), get a Roxburger.

Comes with a fresh ball of grilled ground beef, on a grill-toasted bun, with slices of ham, bacon, and a fried egg.  Deelicious.. (or search "Roxburger" and catch up on this stopping spot).  We'll try to work out such a side trip if'n it works out with the WM trip schedule.  Roxbury is NW of Madison.

There are other options that we might make to catch up with you on your way through, depending on your timing (and ours...including Burlkraft here too  ;D ) 

p.s. I'll see him in an hour at the Rox. 8)
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

ErikC



  by pineywoods
QuoteI would definitely look for a used bandmill. Swingers have their place, but you can't very well upgrade them.

To some degree thats true. You can't really add hydraulics, but why would you. The swing mills don't need them. Blade size can be upgraded on Petersons, as can motor size, and track length. Elecric sizing is available as well. So there is room for upgrade, on what is a very versatile mill in the first place. Wide boards are the biggest disadvantage with swingmills in my experience. But that can be dealt with to a large degree by doublecutting.

Erik
Peterson 8" with 33' tracks, JCB 1550 4x4 loader backhoe, several stihl chainsaws

woodworker9

Erik

I've been intrigued by the swingmill for quite a while.  At first, I thought that it would be my first choice in a mill.  However, I'm leaning towards investing in the bandmill first. On the swinger,  I like the idea of not having to turn the log, and it seems that quartersawing would be a much easier task on the swinger.  I suppose, also, that having a slabbing attachment would take care of cutting wider slabs, but I wonder how much waste is involved with the chainsaw-like kerf.  The swinger would be perfect for making 8" wide boards for woodworking (I was looking at the Lucas), but the concept of double cutting by myself seems tedious, and unrealistic as an individual task.  Am I wrong??

I think starting with the bandmill will work well for me.  Then, if all goes well, and I have a steady outflow of sales of hardwood like I believe I will, I may just make my next mill an 8" or 10" swinger, and keep the bandmill for those wider slabs.  I guess only time will tell.

I've got a large cabinet job that I've got to complete for a customer, approx. 2 more weeks.  When it's done and installed, the next day I'm heading north to check these Woodmizers out.

I'd considered a small 6" Lucas to start with, but 6" wide boards don't do me much good with the type of work I do.  I need wider boards for bookmatching, etc... so an 8" would be the minimum that I would consider, and that's alot more money.  If double cutting were easier to do, I'd be alot more intrigued by a swinger to start with.

Thanks alot for your input.

Jeff





03' LT40HD25 Kohler hydraulic w/ accuset
MS 441, MS 290, New Holland L185

Part_Timer

WW9

The LT15 is a good mill.  I had one for a couple of years then went to the swinger. The lt performed well and dealing with taper and turning is no problem at all.

Doublecutting on a Peterson is no big deal at all to do by ones self.  it just takes a bit of practice just like anything else. 

If you ever want to try running a swinger just drop a line.  I'd be happy to let you run mine for an afternoon any time you want to.  I'm about 1 1/2 hours straight north of WM Indy.
Peterson 8" ATS.
The only place success comes before work is in the dictionary.

Tom

QuoteIn your opinion, with the 25 hp upgrade, which I would definately spend the money on, would the LT 15 be able to handle logs well in the 15" to 24" capacity.  I know the specs from Woodmizer say "yes", but I'm looking for practical experience here.

Also, what about turning logs in that size range, 10 to 16 feet long?  Am I asking for a problem relying on the bobcat.

The 25 hp upgrade is money well spent, especially if you are going to be working with larger logs.

The 15" logs, even in 16' lengths will be little trouble.  The 24", or greater, will probably test your constitution.  Still there are rigging tricks that will get them turned.  Some as simple as greasing the bunks of the mill, learning to use the "big" muscles to lift or your weight to pull, lengthening the handle of the canthook but putting a piece of pipe over it, rolling the log backwards when it doesn't want to go forward, and using the hydraulics of the bobcat as a last resort.  The bobcat should be a good attribute, though you will soon find that it can slow you down as much as help you do the job.  Speed comes from having everything already done.  You lose a lot of time when you stop, mount the machine, crank it, move it, do the job, park it, get out and go to the mill to resume sawing.   It's neat when you first start, but soon, as you become more experienced, nothing will be fast enough, including the LT15.  Just understand that experience even slows down the LT300 to an operator too. :D

You might consider building a frame over the mill so that you can hang a chainfall over the mill. Then you could use it to turn big logs.  A boat winch will do it too as long as you can lift upwards. Put a hook(like a fishhook) on the end of the line, wrap the line around the log and stick it into the log. It'll turn.


thecfarm

I myself keep my loader away from my mill.I put the logs on 2 bunks and than I roll them by hand,peavey,on to the mill.I don't need to push the mill around because I can't quite see what is going on.I've been known to be rough with stuff.I have had to get the wife to dog in a few logs for me.I can do fine with at least 2 square sides.It's just the second one is hard.The log will try to roll back because I can't quite hold the log and work the dog.These were all 16 footers.I've seen those winches on manual mills.The guy I bought mine from has them set up at demos.They do work good,but I can still do it with a peavey,so I will.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

zopi

Quote from: woodworker9 on February 08, 2008, 06:53:36 PM
I suppose, also, that having a slabbing attachment would take care of cutting wider slabs, but I wonder how much waste is involved with the chainsaw-like kerf. 


@ 1/4" kerf...1 bdft per 4 foot cut in 12" material... ;)  or 1 bd ft in 3 ft for 3/8" kerf...I think...it's been a long day.

Got Wood?
LT-15G GO chassis added.
WM sharpener and setter
And lots of junk.

ErikC

  I have only run the peterson, but doublecutting is no extra effort. Once you get the procedure down, it's easy. There is a heavier kerf with slabbers than the blade. I above log scale all the time. The slabber is not so much for wide boards as thick wide slabs, so it isn't as wastefull as it seems. 16" wide boards are plenty for me, and thats what the 8" mill will do. I would get the 8" over 6" if the money is there. I bought the 6" and upgraded it later, cost me a lot more in the long run. The manual band mills are more work in some ways, but everyone who has them seems to like them.

Erik
Peterson 8" with 33' tracks, JCB 1550 4x4 loader backhoe, several stihl chainsaws

woodworker9

Part Timer

That is a kind offer, and I'd love to operate a swingmill.  I'll definately contact you when the weather improves to do that.  I can't think of a better way to learn than watching someone who knows what they are doing. 

Tom

Down the road a bit, I definately plan on putting a roof over the mill.  Having some beefy structure to hook a chainfall to is a good tip.  I'll mostly be milling 10 footers.  I'll only mill 16 footer when I need moulding stock.  I have a Williams and Hussey Moulder, and do a little bit of side business on crown and base to a couple of local builders, so I may be able to amp that business a little, too, as long as I can get the longer logs.  99% of the time, the tree guys and the excavators cut the logs shorter, anyway.

Erik

If I learned correctly, the Peterson Mill doublecuts by removing a cowl/shield and pulling the saw back.  The lucas requires the carriage to be picked up off the tracks, and reversed.  Is this correct??  I don't see myself picking the carriage up too frequently.
03' LT40HD25 Kohler hydraulic w/ accuset
MS 441, MS 290, New Holland L185

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