Can Utility companies cut down and spray to kill trees along property lines ?

[onyx200]

We live in an agricultural area, and conservation area in NE PA.  The local utility company wants to cut all the trees
along the propery borders along the road.  Some of the trees are over 36 inches thick.  Not only that, they want
to spray to kill everything.  We didn't know they did this back in the early 80's already, we have dead trees about
75 feet in.  Nothing still grows there.  Is there anything we can do ?

Linda B.
NE PA
onyx200@msn.com

[Brian_Rhoad]

I was told by our electric company and the company they contracted to trim the lines that they only have a right of way 10' on either side of the line. They cannot cut anything that is not in that area.

[onyx200]

Does that mean trim and not kill ?

[Brian_Rhoad]

They told me they can't do anything to trees that are not on their right of way except trim over hanging limbs.

[Ron Scott]

Check to see if they have ownership or only surface occupancy for the utility right of way and  what the designated width of the utility corridor is that they must stay within for maintenance. Also check to see if there are any restrictions on the type of maintenance allowed including any chemical use restrictions within the right of way.

You need to let them know and discuss your concerns with them.

[Ron Wenrich]

A lot depends on the size of the line.  If you're talking a line like those along the roads, they are a lot different than the heavier lines.  I'm thinking roadside utility lines are more like 25'.  But, they won't cut or use spray under these lines if they are in a residential area.  You can specify to having the trees drop crotched, where they top the trees under the lines.  You won't be allowed to have your trees growing into the lines.

For the heavier transmission lines, the right of way is a lot wider.  They have the jurisdiction to go and cut any tree that may hit the line or grow into it, if they feel there is a danger.  Normally, they will climb the tree and trim most of the limbs before they drop the tree.  The trees are not removed and you can have them cut into lumber or sell them to a lumber company.  Recent ice storms have made the utility companies a little gun shy.  They even cut some small cedar under their lines, even though they would never grow to the height of the line. 

As for sprays, you can specify no sprays.  I didn't allow that on my property.  But, they did cut the cedar and then treated the stump.  I didn't have livestock, so it wasn't much of a bother.  The stumps didn't need to be treated, since they wouldn't resprout.  I did allow them to cut all the brush, and then I have kept after it with mowing.

I did some utility work in western PA where they have areas that use spray and areas that don't.  Those that don't have massive amounts of blackberries, along with pokeberries, and other assorted weeds that made walking through it almost impossible.  We used to run everything down with a truck just to do line inspections.

On areas that used sprays, many right of ways were like pastures.  They sprayed in one year, than came back a couple years later and knocked off the balance.  It did a really good job. 

Work with the foreman and ask for references of other areas they worked on.  They'll work with you.  What's your utility company up that way? 

[onyx200]

It is UGI and contracted is Asplundah.  I just feel that these huge 100 + year old trees shouldn't be touched.
Let alone spraying......

[thecfarm]

Welcome to the forum,onyx200.I would contact the utility company.They will work with you as much as they can to save the trees.Or at least they will around here.Sometimes it's hard to save a tree because it has gotten so big over the years.Good luck.

[Ron Wenrich]

UGI is a gas utility.  Their maintenance is apparently different than the electric company.  There might be a problem with tree roots in their lines, but I doubt it.  Usually, they just mow the lines every couple of years.

I wouldn't allow them to kill any trees with spray unless they are willing to pay for them.  That should back them off.  Tell them no spray and no tree injection.  Tree injection is where they will take a hatchet and hit the tree and injects poisons to kill the tree.

You may not be able to save all your trees due to the right of way agreement.  That should be part of your deed.  You do have a say in how they will be disposed of if they are cut.  They will cut it into firewood, if you want. 

Talk to the Asplundh foreman and see specifically which trees he wants to cut and ask why.  Make sure they fall within their agreement and aren't just something they want to cut "because".  When they came through my property, they were really decent about it and I managed to save a couple of small cedars.  They cut the ones I wanted and bunched in a pile.  They then mowed a bunch of brush I was in the process of cutting.  There was no spray or injection.

[submarinesailor]

About 10 years ago, the local utility came thru trimmed and sprayed everything on the 27,000 volt line behind the house.  I had a very loud, face to face conversation with their forester.  Telling him no chemicals were allowed – my well is 40 yards down the hill from the line.  Well, it happened again about 5 years later.  A letter from my lawyer to their Chief Counsel fixed the problem.  Something about proving me with fresh potable water for the rest of my life got their attention.  Needless to say, I have not had a problem with them since.

What I'm trying to say with this – stand up to them and tell them no spraying.  If they say they have the right to spray, make them prove it to you "IN WRITING".  If they tell you they don't have to prove it.  Tell them you are going to call the PUC and log a complaint against them.  This usually brings the bosses to your site and you can work something out with them.  If they don't or won't work with you, go to the PUC.

One more thing, of all the local utility companies I deal with in my day job.  UGI is the worst.  Be very careful when dealing with them.  If you can, get very thing in writing.

Bruce

[Mr Mom]

Didnt the goverment pass a law that major pipelines had to be cleared back so far on each side of the  right of way?? That is if UGI has pipelines running through there.
I remember seeing some stories about people losing trees beacuse of the law.

Thanks Alot Mr Mom

[Corley5]

I had a confrontation with the power company over spraying the right of way.  They did it a few years back with a systemic spray and over sprayed to the point it killed trees ten feet beyond the ROW.  I didn't lose any valuable trees but it showed carelessness on the tree service's part.  I was notified last spring they were going to spray again.  I called and told them NO I wanted mechanical control on my property and explained what had happened last time.  They had changed to glyphosate solution from the systemic and I was assured that the past wouldn't be repeated.  I gave them the go ahead.  Instead of just spraying the small trees and brush they sprayed the whole ROW killing everything including the grass  : >:( >:( >:(  No more pesticides on my property 

[Loghead]

We just had them come thru yesterday and did there thing here. (no spray just a 90hp tractor with a grinder on the front end )and this is whats left.
They stoped in ten years ago and were going to spray we said NO WAY we had wild rasbury bushes growing and alot of nesting birds but since the bushes died back and the vines have killed off most of the trees its all a dead tangled mess
this year we said go for it! as long as there is NO SPRAY!

[stonebroke]

Where we are in upstate NY a lot of the old coops never did get rightof way agreements so now National grid actually has no rights on the farm to maintain their lines. That said We actually encourage them to cut more.  We like to have the electricity on and not have frequent outages. But no pesticides.  The last time they went though they haulked the cherry trees out to the road and chipped them so my cows would not get sick. I appreciated that. So look into your right of way agreement if there is one but most utlitys will honor a no herbicide request. Big trees that are interfering are a different matter.

Stonebroke

[wesdor]

The Power Company (electrical) cut down trees along our lane this past fall.  They called ahead and were very good about it.  They also only cut in about 20' - didn't use any chemical spray.  We had a very good experience with them.

Like others have said, contact UGI and see what they can do.  If that doesn't work, try contacting the crew boss from Asplund and see what can be worked out.

If nothing else works, you might consider contacting the EPA.  Sounds to me like they are using some powerful chemicals and that doesn't sound healthy to me.  Do you have wells in the area?  They could easily contaminate the ground water. 

Worst case, see if you can get some saw lumber out of the trees. 

And welcome to the Forestry Forum

[Ron Scott]

On National Forest system lands mechanical maintenance methods was preferred and we only allowed selective maintenance spraying as needed after approval by a field review to maintain aesthetics, protect wildlife grasses and shrubs, etc. No spraying was permitted near any lakes, water courses or wetlands, etc.

[pappy19]

Powerline rights of way widths depend on the size of the powerline ie, larger voltage from 69kv to 500kv need more width due to grounding issues and height of towers, etc. If a R/W width is say 150' and the center is 75' then there could be a possible "danger" tree 100' tall 25' outside of their R/W. If this is the case, they should contact you and get permission for removal as it is off their R/W. If it is a live tree, then they should pay you the going rate, plus give you the tree after it is cut. I generally make the contractor cut it in whatever lengths the landowner wants. If the landowner doesn't want the tree, then I arrange for it to be hauled off and remove the slash as well.

For pipelines, there are no "danger" trees except for any large woody growth inside their R/W, it has to go. There can be some exclusions on this depending on the language of the easement and even then, you can go to the O&M office of the utility and request an encroachment permit for a particular landscape item or evena non-permanent structure like a shed or corral.

[stonebroke]

I had a friend on whose land the power company was upgrading the service,
They wanted to be able to cut any tree within 300 feet of their lines, Needless to say he did not agree.

Stonebroke

[pappy19]

Depends on the size of the powerline and the width of the easement he signed or the easement that was with the land that he bought. Easements go with the land regardless of the number of land transfers.

[Brad_bb]

I think ya'll mean herbicide, not pesticide.  I've used Toradon (sp?) on fresh cut mulberry stumps on my fence line- painted on the stump.  I like sprays.

[Riles]

Technically, herbicides are a subset of pesticides. You wouldn't be killing it if it wasn't a pest, right?

[beenthere]

Riles is funny...

[ely]

yes but riles is correct too.

alot of folks who are moving into new territory do not understand about the ROW easements that were with the property when they acqired it. this leads to problems when you have a hot headed landowner all up in your face hollering about something that they really have no clue about. i know it makes my job really pleasant when it happens to me. :-\

[cheyenne]

I read with interest the posts about supposed encroachment.I have a power line easement 100' wide & 1/2 mile long on one side of my property. When they put the new lines in back in 1987 they put a culvert in under their access rd. & 25% of the culvert is on my property so you know where all the water goes. well every thing was fine until the tree cutters came in 3 yrs ago & limbed & brushed & threw all the limbs & brush in the creek beds changing the natural flow & washing out their access rd. & washing out over a mile of my logging rds & horse trails. Then this spring the tree cutters came back & cut over 5000 trees that were on my property. Huge mess. Tried to be nice & work with them. Did not work. Now the high powered lawyers have work to do. And to think they could have fixed the problem with a small trackhoe & a couple days pay. Corprate thinking & Engineers? And i'm in the Adirondack Park. The psc was no help at all. My deed clearly states they have to reemburse for any damage. I don't mean to ramble but this whole deal makes me sick. Wish me luck. Cheyenne

[Ron Scott]

Does your state have rules and regulations for Best Management Practices that can be enforced? Sounds like you have a case if the damages are outside the utility's legal right of way.

[Chuck White]

As a land-owner in NY, you can put limitations on what the contractors for the power company can cut or spray!

The contractor has the right to TRIM branches to a specific distance from the lines.

You the land-owner can say NO to spraying.

If the trimmers show up as in my case, I only own 1.5 acres, if they trim a tree in my yard, I'm usually out there and they won't get away with just peeling limbs off one side of the cherry trees, they will trim the whole thing to a level above the lines.  In other words, they will make it look nice instead of just a "hack job".

[stonebroke]

Cheyenne, You should have a talk with your Assemblyman and your senator.

Stonebrokie

[cheyenne]

Chuck; is there any where that you know of where i can find that in print. thank you Cheyenne

[Chuck White]

cheyenne
I'll get the info for you.   It might be a little while, but I'll get it.

Chuck

[stonebroke]

Wouldn't the PSC have that infomation.

Stonebroke

[cheyenne]

good idea i'll check with them in the morning.

[Chuck White]

cheyenne;

A friend of mine went through this ordeal with the power company and I finally got hold of him and he said it was a lawyer vs lawyer issue.

The point to remember is you actually own the land, the power company has the right to be on it to maintain their lines.
The power company has no other rights other than keeping the trees off of their lines, to a specific distance and line maintenance.

[cheyenne]

I agree totaly and agree as to why they have to trim & cut on their row. But that does not give them the right to come 50' off the row onto my property and clearcut. They contend they can cut anything that poses a danger to thier lines no matter where it is & I don't buy it. My deed & their deeded row clearly states they must reemburse the landowner for any damage. Moreover NYS law title 9-1501 states they must have the landowners permission & they never ask for it. They just say tough you don't like sue us. Well this time their pushing the wrong Indian. I'd rather die broke than let them destroy the land & push me around. If more people would fight we wouldn't have these problems. The problem with people today is they say let the goverment take care of it i'm watching tv. (LOOK WHERE THATS GOTTEN US) And who's going to fix all my roads they washed out. Cheyenne

[stonebroke]

Have you checked with the PSC?

Stonebroke

[cheyenne]

yes this morning, they are no help at all. They said call the utility and get a copy of the tarriff of row. I am told by the utility there is no such document it is governed by the body of the document of deed of row which they violated. Color me confused. CHEYENNE

[stonebroke]

What does your deed say?

Stonebroke

[cheyenne]

that they can access my ajoining land to service the lines with people & vehicles but they must recompence me for any damages. That is what the deed of row states. cheyenne

[stonebroke]

I would send them a bill

Stonebroke

[Chuck White]

One year the Power Company came onto my friends land and sprayed herbacide.

They were told ahead of time that there were cattle in there and they sprayed anyway.

One of the cattle later died and the Power Company paid for it.   Also, they paid $50.00 each for some "Christmas trees" that they sprayed.

Bill them for anything of value that they destroy!

[cheyenne]

NYS Law article 9-1501 states; No person shall cut,pull  or dig up for the purpose of removel bla-bla-bla-bla.........Penalties....... $250.00 per stump plus tremble damages x 5,000 stumps. Now try to get them to pay. Thats my lawyers job. Cheyenne

[BCCrouch]

Stick it to 'em as the lessons that sting their pocketbook are the only ones that truly make an impression!

[sawmilllawyer]

Amen, BBCrouch and good hunting Cheyenne.

[Tom]

You might get some help understanding the jargon if you meet with your county forester.  They are schooled in such matters and might even be able to help your lawyer.  Keep an eye out for a consulting forester that might help in a law suit as well.

[cheyenne]

Tom, good advice. thank you....Cheyenne

[Ron Scott]

Yes, you could use a consulting forester for some advice and you will probably need one to work with your attorney in any damage assessment. Your deed says that you are to be compensated for any damages so you have control of the situation and can get their attention accordingly.

You might be seeing the poor work of a contractor working for the utility company and some think that they can do what they want to and they will if the landowner doesn't call them on it.

Some like to go outside the right of way if the landowner doesn't say anything and do more tree removal than they should so that they don't have to come back as soon again. A certified bill for damages to the primary company president should get control and correction  of the situation.

I've been an expert witness for landowner's  in a number of such damage cases and the utility company usually "cleaned up their act" after being hit with a damage assessement for resource damages outside their right of way.

A little publicity in the local newspapers concerning any poor management practices also gets their attention.  ;)

[cheyenne]

This site is amazing i've gotten more excellent advise here than i have from my lawyer. He doesn't want to be confrontational until he has to be & he may be right but my nature is you hit me with a stick & i'll beat you down with the entire forest. That being said does anyone know of a top notch consulting forester in my area & please keep the advice coming. Effie & I need all the help we can get to fight this battle. Maybe this battle will help other people in the future. Thank you.   Effie & Cheyenne

[Ron Scott]

Check with the Association of Consulting Foresters of America, Inc at www.acf-foresters.org to see if there in one near you.

[BaldBob]

The closest ACF members to you would be:
Herbert Boyce in Jay, NY
Steven Bick in Thendara, NY
and Galen Hutchison in Leicester,VT
I don't know any of them personally, but as ACF members they should be well qualified and must adhere to a strong ACF ethics code.

[cheyenne]

UPDATE: Had a meeting with our lawyer this morning & we are now filing for a Summary Judgement against one of the Defendents in our Lawsuit....Cheyenne

[cheyenne]

UPDATE: Had a walk around today with all the defendents lawyers,surveyors & claims adjusters. Talk about people who get lost in the woods. After two hours of uphill, downhill, crawling over the slash, wading through mud & water & being dragged through the blowdowns I thought I would have to drag them all out with the ATV wagon. I don't think a single one of them knew what they were seeing just adding up billable hours....Cheyenne

[cheyenne]

Final update..........I sued a utility co & 2 tree cutting cos...... Don't let anyone ever tell you not too throw rocks at city hall....... They made me 3 offers to settle out of court & I told them to shove it.........I sued for 4.5 Million & everyone laughed at  me & said crazy old Indian been smoken pipe to much........I believed I was right & would not back down........So to trial we go.......A week before the trial they all made me an offer I could not refuse........God Father movie all over again without the horse head........Nondisclosure statement prevents me from saying what the settlement was but I payed off my mortgage, bought 2 new used trucks,Effie a new car, Mercedes convertible, new roofs on my 3 houses & contractors are still working on many other projects & I just keep playing in the woods with my trees.....Now I buy beer by the truck load........Never let anyone tell you their too big you can't win..... 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8)  Cheyenne

[Chuck White]

Good show Cheyenne.

Good that somebody showed them that they can't just do what they want to.

[SwampDonkey]

They seem to use herbicide along with hydro axe in the deep bush, but near settlements it's just hydro axe because my uncle has a line across him and it's never sprayed. He used to have cattle and horses graze there.

[Dangerous_Dan]

Good job!
I love it when the big guys screw up and have to pay for it!
These guys get away with too much.

What are they doing to fix your washed out roads? and that illegal drain pipe on your property?

Who is going to clean up the mess off 5000 cut trees?

[ibseeker]

That's great, Cheyenne. I hate to see the big guys rough handling the customers. Maybe they'll think twice next time.

[cheyenne]

I'm putting in all new roads & ditching the water runoff myself. As for the trees 90% of them were little saplings, but as the law reads a tree is a tree no matter the size........By doing all the work myself I know it's done right & will last forever, even putting a 50 foot bridge over one of my streams & a 20 foot bridge over another one.....Believe me they made it worth my while     8) 8) 8) smiley_indianchief 8) 8) 8)

[Ron Scott]

They must have really "screwed up" without any legal right-of-way. ;)

[cheyenne]

They have a legal ROW for half a mile but I own the land it's on.......When they cut they went past their ROW & cut my trees.......When they put the culvert in the end of the culvert is past the end of their ROW & on my land & washed out my roads. Plus all the trees they cut  they just dropped on my land & made a huge mess.......Cheyenne

[Ron Scott]

It's good to see that you prevailed over the utility company. They can be a costly problem at times.

Here, they would not allow us to forward or truck wood over their gas pipe line without placing an additional 2 feet of fill over the right of way crossing before they allowed us to cross it.

The landowner owns the property on both sides of the gas line, but they would not allow crossing of the pipeline to harvest the timber on the other side without placing the added fill over the pipeline at added cost to the landowner and logging contractor. This is really a taking of the landowner's right to access and use his property on the other side of the pipeline to harvest his timber.

The gas lines are suppose to be at least 3 feet deep and on National Forest lands we required them to be 5 feet deep for this very reason so that property use was not interupped by the pipeline right of way crossing it.

We now often find that the lines are just below the surface, so they are cutting costs and the landowner ends up having to pay for a fill construction to cross the pipeline to the rest of his property.

They would not even allow an empty truck to turn around on another section of the gas line, so we had to construct a turn around and landing/decking area this side of the pipeline.

Just something else to watch for when dealing with utility companys. When you give them a right of way, be sure that it is spelled out in the right of way document that they are putting the pipe deep enough so as not to interrup your further use of your property as desired on both sides of the right of way, especially if you have forest land on both sides.

[pappy19]

I am a contract Right of Way Agent for many natural gas, crude oil, products and water pipelines along with electric transmission lines. All new projects generally require a new easement be signed by the landowner. There are many clauses beneficial to the landowner that never make it into the easement. Even with most attorneys, essential clauses protecting the landowner are either not thought of or not negotiated to be included in the final easement document. As a forester and a contract "landman", even though I am working for the "company", I have always made suggestions that will benefit the landowner in the long run. Older easements by utility companies were either not very specific or allowed the company to do whatever they pleased. However, most older easements did allow for damages after the initial construction, and all easements must state the right of way width and length with either a defined written legal description or a plat with bearing and distances of the centerline of the pipe or powerline.

Regarding tree cutting on powerline easements; the company does have the right to cut down trees within the easement width, and, if the easement document allows, they can cut trees that may become "danger" trees that could blow down and hit the powerline. In all cases the company must contact the landowner to initially show him and mark these danger trees and pay for them. In most states the cutting of trees outside of the easement width would be considered a tresspass and could face trebble damages.

When I negotiate for timber removal on a new right of way for pipelines, I always pay the landowner top dollar for the timber and then give the timber back to the landowner. In reality, the landowner gets paid twice as they usually sell it to a lumber company.

In over 30 years dealing with utility corridors and many cross-country easements, I can tell you alot of stories, some good and some not-so-good.

Pap

[cheyenne]

Now here's the height of stupidity you won't believe......I'm sitting having coffee with my pet fox the other morning & out in front pulls up 3 huge brand new trucks pulling chippers & they start putting men working signs in the road. Well I hear a chainsaw fire up & off I go on the wheeler up the hill......I pull up & I'm sitting there watching when the foreman comes over & says Hi.....He says they have to cut down my huge pines & I say go ahead if you want to get sued again......He says you don't want them cut........Good guess I say....Well that shuts the job down & he proceeds to tell me that the utility co said they had my permission to cut down the trees........Yeah right........I can't believe these people are this .....STUPID.......I feel another lawsuit coming on........... ........Cheyenne

[pappy19]

Did you get their attention?  For most of the contractors, they really don't give a rats rearend if they have permission to cut a tree or not. The only way they stop cutting is for the landowner to bitch, then they go to the utility company and complain that their landman didn't tell them not to cut on so-and-so's property. It's mostly a bunch of BS. Make them prove that the utility landman got permission to cut trees, especially if it is off of their specific right of way width. Trebble damages plus is usually the penalty. I hope you get it.

Pap

[Skiddah]

The shortened version is if the utility company wants it gone and it's reasonably encroaching on the right-of-way or their overhead rights, it'll be gone.  Right or wrong, utilities serve a public interest, wield a lot of clout, and have deep pockets.  They tend to win these arguements.  Every few years or so when the line trimming contractors make the rounds (the local utility here has a 7 year cycle), residents whine, complain, write letters to the editor, call out the TV news crews, and much more.  At the end of the day, the disputed trees are either trimmed or cut.  If you really want to see how much power utility crews have, search eminent domain.  Specifically look for cases that have titles like ABC Utility Company v. 1.45 acres of land in XYZ County.  It's scary the power they have.

[SwampDonkey]

Our power company is government and they do as they wish. They took land from residents for dams and paid what they were going to, take it or get nothing. Also, if the original survey erodes into the river, they just move the line in a little further on you. There is a cemetery that has been loosing ground for years. As the bank of the river erodes they just move the pins in on the cemetery more. Of course with a population of "loyalists" there is little chance anyone would even challenge it too seriously.

[beenthere]

Over the 40+ years I've been here, I've never had a major problem.
I meet with the foreman and first tell him to take whatever he thinks is in the way. Then I tell him the trees I'd like to keep if at all possible.
He'll come back and say we can keep those and these others we can trim so we don't have to cut the tree down. Don't think I've lost a tree yet that I wanted to keep.
Seems to work out well in the end.

Not saying this will work for everyone.  ;)

[pappy19]

Yes, the utility companies wield a heavy hand, but that being said, it doesn't mean that they can just do whatever they want. You do have rights, at least in the USA, don't know about the Canadians. As I stated before, they can cut or remove anything within their easement/right of way width; that is not the issue. It's when they go off their easement/right of way width and want to take "danger" trees is where the grey area of reasonable becomes an issue. They do have to pay you for any off-right of way damages including tree removal, damaged fences, gates, cattle guards, etc. If you don't point that out to them, then shame on you, as they will take advantage as much as you let them.

Pap