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How to tear down a 34' by 48' barn?

Started by Clovis, February 03, 2008, 08:23:14 PM

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Clovis

I have just recently been offered a timber framed barn. The top half seems to be in excellent shape but the bottom posts have been cut about two feet off of the ground and have been blocked in. The friend is going to help take it down but he wants to do it the easy way. Wrap a rope around the top and pull it down with a log skidder and winch. I would like to save and restore the barn but if it is going to be destroyed I dont want to get involved. Any ideas on how I could take it down or what would the usual cost and procedure be? I might even save the wood for my new cottage but then the wood would need to be cut anyway because it is going to be smaller. 24' by 44'
I'm not afraid of the great outdoors!

beenthere

Clovis
Three of us were helping erect a timber frame barn last June, and it sounded like the method (gin poles, ropes) used to put it up were the same methods used to take it down.





Here is a thread about the barn being erected on a new farm location and about "rooster" who is the one who knows how it is done.

https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,26080.0.html
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Polly

   8)make sure the traces are hooked up then gitty up go then whoo :)

shinnlinger

since the posts are shot anyway, can you cut them(the blocking) in such a way that when the winch and skidder get involved the posts fold and the roof system is on the ground for dissassembly?

Can you post a shot of the roof system?  Ussually deconstruction is reverse of assembly. roof boards, purlins rafters etc...but you can also pick and choose what you want to save and ussually old barns dont come apart easy...you will break something..hopefully not you....cranes are nice

Shinnlinger
Woodshop teacher, pasture raised chicken farmer
34 horse kubota L-2850, Turner Band Mill, '84 F-600,
living in self-built/milled timberframe home

Thehardway

Clovis,

Ditto what shinnlinger said on the pictures. We need some more info on the construction method.  Is it bent style construction or is it a continuos top plate with common rafters, ridgebeam etc.?

Norwood LM2000 24HP w/28' bed, Hudson Oscar 18" 32' bed, Woodmaster 718 planer,  Kubota L185D, Stihl 029, Husqvarna 550XP

maineframer

I don't imagine it will come down easily with a tug of a skidder. The frame should be disassembled in reverse order it went up. Shingles, boarding, rafters&purlins, top plates etc.

I have found that stepping back ---looking --planning --having another cup of coffee-- are all important steps to such an undertaking.
David

thecfarm

Wrap a rope around it and pull it down? Hope it's all ready to fall down.Will take alot of wotk and time to save the lumber.But if it's worth to to you,have fun.I have only torn down two stick built buildings.One the lumber was saved,the other was not.Have to remember with all of the timbers and boards,anything saved needs all the nails removed for future sawing.Remember some of the upright timber might of been used to hang stuff on,nails was used for that.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

Clovis

Thanks for the help guys. I will try and get some pics for you to look at. The barn is about a hour and a half away and it was just dropped on my lap this weekend while i was visiting some friends. The friend that owns the barn is a full time farmer and wants it gone. He's not on the same wave length as the rest of us are on the forestry forum. It does have continuous top plates with rafters. The top plates are not one piece they have a tie joint over a post. It has tin roofing that you can see from the inside, no old shakes to deal with. The outer walls on the bottom are two layer wood siding the top 2/3 is one layer. I am thinkin about cuting the bottom posts and then dropping it down to the loft level to start the the disassembly process. The bottom is kind of crappy and the loft is about 2/3rds of the barn height.

I'm building my own saw mill to cut up the Ash trees that have been wiped out from the borer in our area. All the wood is going to good use in my new cottage. It is going to be a timber frame.
I'm not afraid of the great outdoors!

Jim_Rogers

Clovis:
A professional barn disassembler would get thousands of dollars (US) for taking down a barn like this, if you want to save it and use it either at the same size it was or just the parts.
The first thing you have to do to save it for being a barn of the same size is to strip the frame off all the boards and roofing materials.
Doing this makes the frame weaker, and you may need to add bracing inside to hold it all together.
Then you'd take it apart from the top down. You'll need to study the frame and find the last piece put up and take that down first, as mentioned above working backwards from the way it was assembled.
You'll need a complete set of plans of how it now stands for putting it back together. You'll need to label the plan and the timber with the same label so that you understand where each one came from to put it back to where it needs to go.

If you're going to just take it down for using the timbers and lumber over again, you can do whatever you want to get it down. But if the posts are bad then the overall weight of the frame is being held up somewhere. You'll need lots of bracing and be careful if you take the wrong thing out the whole thing could come down at once.

Pulling over a timber frame isn't as easy as it sounds....

Jim Rogers
Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
Woodmizer 1994 LT30HDG24 with 6' Bed Extension

Don P

I'd look the gift horse in the mouth real closely first though. Look for insect exit holes, rot, mud tunnels, excessive lean, broken beams, etc. Around here many of the old barns are simply at the end of their service life and are not really up to reuse. Use a critical eye before comitting a whole lot of labor.

Clovis

The more I evaluate the romantic idea of saving this barn the more that reality sets in. I think that I may have to go the route of pulling it down. The first step that I may take is to weaken the lower secton that is not in very good shape anyway and not really salvageable. Then hopefully as Jim said "barns don't come down easy" we can get the loft area to move laterally and remain intact on the ground beside the bottom part of the frame (kinda-sorta). When that half is closer to the ground and the potentially falling beams have less momentum smiley_swinging_board I will try to salvage what I can for the new cottage. The loft area is a beautiful work of art and visually in very good shape from the inside. The bottom on the other hand is pretty much toast. Seeing as I have ZERO experience with timber framing the disassembly of a frame might do me some good when building the timber framed cottage. No matter how little I pick up. And before anybody says it I have already read every timber framing book known to man. :P ??? :P
I'm not afraid of the great outdoors!

Ironwood

I am with Jim on this one. Lots of site and situation specific variables to comment too much. I have taken down (piece meal and tagged) three timber frame buildings, two small on one like yours. It is not easy that is FOR SURE. I like the "cup of coffee" idea. There are reasons to do it piece meal depending on the type and quality of decking, siding and timbers. I just looked at one MONSTER barn near slated for distruction, it is of the era where the raw materials really don't support the piece meal disassembly. The raw material value just isn't there, it is 1940's pine siding and decking, one good thing is a shingle roof (light weight) but it is sawn oak timbers and nothing in the totality of it suggests anything other than a demo job. YES, they are hard to "just pull down" even if they look weak, then if you can't get it down it is a REAL danger!!! LOTS OF VARIABLES.


                  Ironwood
There is no scarcity of opportunity to make a living at what you love to do, there is only scarcity of resolve to make it happen.- Wayne Dyer

Clovis

Hey Ironwood, did you get any practical knowledge from the barn disassembly process? I'm new to this and I think taking down a barn may help me relate all I have read on timber framing so far. And the plus is that I really enjoy this stuff.
I'm not afraid of the great outdoors!

Ironwood

Sure some knowlege, but most of the same could be gleaned from really studying the thing even w/ out taking it down. Certainly have seen others make the "pull it down w/ a cable" methodology mistake, even a weakened barn is VERY strong. IF you only get it half way down then there is REAL danger. I would be very lerry of this. I have seen people cut all the corner bracing first, that helped, but I would definitely precable it to give it support from the outside as you weaken it from the inside. Find some one local who has done it, they will give you tons of insight. I have become a bit of a local guy who can give folks pointers on these OLE GIRLS. BTDT kinda thing. Don't be afraid to give them a little cash, there insight could be very helpful if it is the right person and they understand you want them to REALLY look at this with you.

                IRonwood
There is no scarcity of opportunity to make a living at what you love to do, there is only scarcity of resolve to make it happen.- Wayne Dyer

moonhill

Here is my vote.  Take it down backwards, but you have to turn around and face it.  The roof sounds easy, no boarding.  Rafters next.  Remove wall boards.  Top plates.  Drop bents one at a time.  Use plenty of extra bracing to hold the remaining up.
Do you know how old this building is.  It is our history were dealing with here.  If its taken down and parted out, we just lost some of our history.  If it is save as a whole structure, we just saved some of our history.  If you just want the parts there isn't much there, the post and beams are full of mortice and tenons in all the wrong places.  The only way to re use them is in the same configuration.  Other wise save your self the time and money and have the owner take it down at his cost.  I have only taken down 2 buildings, using gin poles and block and tackle, one was repaired and put back to use the other is in waiting.  I wouldn't hesitate at another chance on the next, and go for it, it is a great learning experience.   Work safe.  Tim B.
This is a test, please stand by...

Clovis

Tim, your right on the money about the fact its our history thats being destroyed. The farmer that owns it may be of a different opinion though. Its just a old barn that does not fit his needs and he can't store any equipment in it, insurance, taxes the whole nine yards, its not history to him. I'm the one who came in and said lets try and save at least some of this beauty even if its just a bit of it. He was going to use the beams and boards for fire wood. (shudder-shudder) The rafters could deffinetly be of use to me and even some of the beams that have the least amount of notches in them. They will only be moved about 20 min to away to my cottage so thay are staying in the area that they grew in.
I'm not afraid of the great outdoors!

iffy

An old gent from this area who is many years deceased used to be in big demand for people who were salvaging old buildings. If the building was such that he could close up all the holes, he would hang some dynamite at the right heights and the right places and touch it off. If his calculations were correct, and I never heard of an instance that the weren't, the building would bulge a little and when the dust settled most of the nails would be loose enough you could get a pry bar under them and pull them. According to local legend, and you know how trustworthy that is, he did quite a number of them during his career.

I tried it on a house I was tearing down and all I accomplished was to waste my precious store of dynamite. Someone told me later it only works on barns or other open type buildings.

Ironwood

Perhaps I am a bit of a snob, but some barns are not worth reassembling. There is little redeaming value to many barns. I am all for a hewn chestnut decked and sided barn gingerly being disassembled, the reality is many barns are of common or inferior  materials and SHOULD not be messed with. My grandfathers "depression" barn was built in a fashion in which it began to rot as soon as the last nail was driven. Just because it is called a "barn" doesn't mean it has inherent value. Sorry to my lack of romance on this, I love history but the bottom line is some aren't worht saving.

                      Ironwood
There is no scarcity of opportunity to make a living at what you love to do, there is only scarcity of resolve to make it happen.- Wayne Dyer

moonhill

Ironwood, you are right on, but with out a proper assessment we are all guessing, and it would be a shame to loose a viable structure.  In my area of coastal Maine historic building are coming down left and right, via excavators, not even attempting to salvage, just splinters.  Some are too far gone.  But at least have it documented for historic purposes, there may be some interesting joinery in side to say the least, once its gone there is no getting it back.  Have those old buildings looked at before  they come down.  Tim B.
This is a test, please stand by...

thecfarm

Another member from Maine?You guys are joining up left and right.Update your profile so we all know where you are from.I missed you when you joined,I don't go to the timber framing threads much.If you need help with posting picture,holler,someone will help you.There is a help button at top that will show you how to post pictures.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

Clovis

All this talk about pictures and I don't have any to show you guys. So this wekend I will try to make it up to Tupperville, Ontario and take some pic's for ya all to look at. There are no hand hewn timbers that i saw in it but there had been many sawmills around the area. (all gone now) Now, every thing that I have learned is from books but it looked like the posts and beams were done using the measured method not the scribed method. If thats the right terminology? Most joints looked housed. H-bents, top plate, no ridge beam but it did have structural purlins half way up the rafters that were suported by beams at 45 degree angles from the top plate to the pulin and up from the top of an H-bent.
Sound about right to any one? Again I will try to get some pics this weekend. 

I think that saving as much as I can for the cottage would serve the old girl some justice. After all the farmer is a fellow cottager and 100 years from now the story will go somthing like this... These old beams here were brought to this island by a guy named Clovis and he got them from a guy in the area who had a farm and a cottage, his name was Joe.......

I think that alot of old historical homes were built with a mixture of new and used lumber. Clovis
I'm not afraid of the great outdoors!

Ironwood

Clovis,

You are exactly right, all things were labor intensive and reused as many times as feasible. Even down to the nails iin late 1800's buildings.

       Ironwood
There is no scarcity of opportunity to make a living at what you love to do, there is only scarcity of resolve to make it happen.- Wayne Dyer

Don P


Ironwood

I have a few boxes of variuous sized wrought nails around, so I guess even into the next century  ;D

              Ironwood
There is no scarcity of opportunity to make a living at what you love to do, there is only scarcity of resolve to make it happen.- Wayne Dyer

moonhill

Clovis, it sounds like a square rule frame to me. Does it have any major sags it the roof line or bows in the walls? 
thecfarm, I'm not sure what the proper edicate is for joining a fourm is, I just signed up and jumped in.  As for pictures, I keep saying I am working on that.  This is my new morning routine and don't have much time to devote to futher study on the inner workings of these machines and the ether net, but I am slowly working on it.  I do see some Mainers on this site and wonder where they live, than get out the Gazetteer for a bit of understanding.  I'm on page 26.  Tim B.
This is a test, please stand by...

sprucebunny

I guess it was foolhardy.... About 30 years ago i took down a post and beam barn 30x60. Took the siding off, cut a few of the trunnels, wrapped a cable around the length of the peak of the roof and yanked on it with an Econoline van.
Ignorance is bliss  :D :D

It ended up in a fairly neat, flat pile on the ground. Didn't break many of the tenons.

Looking back, I guess i was very lucky  ;)

It was alot of work cleaning up the debris and then the guy decided the beams (some were supposed to be my pay... ) were worth a fortune and I ended up with about $200 for my effort.
One of the 2 hand-hewn beams I got is holding up the livingroom ceiling in my old house.

Good luck !

MS193, MS192 and an 026  Weeding and Thinning. Gilbert Champion sawmill

Clovis

Tim, Square rule frame? I never heard of that term before. Please explain. The roof line has no sags but the top cross beams do have some sag to them. No bows to the walls that I noticed.

Sprucebunny, funny story about the barn. I think most of us have been in that situation, one way or another, before. That was a concern of mine to that I would put some effort into this and then the carpet is pulled out from under the whole operation. There is a couple of brothers involved in the farming where the barn is located. People start to think there is money involved (real or perceived) and things can get weird. ???
I'm not afraid of the great outdoors!

thecfarm

Moonhill,just go back into your profile and put in Maine into location.I would not of known you was from Maine if you did not mention it in one of your posts.We all like to know what general area someone is from.I'm on page 20 by the way.Mine was printed back in '97.Mine shows you as being way up on the east side of Maine,Jonesport,Jonesboro,Machias,East Machias.You will enjoy it on here.I suppose you got some snow from this storm?Looked like a coastal storm on TV.I only got about 4 inches too much.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

Jim_Rogers

thecfarm:
Recently there was a timber framing meeting in Maine and I met Tim (moonhill). and he's a very nice guy for sure....

Jim Rogers
Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
Woodmizer 1994 LT30HDG24 with 6' Bed Extension

Clovis

You know guys some things in life are not fair. I live in Windsor Ontario Canada, and its not the hot bed of historical places. Don't get me wrong I love my home area but I have, even as a youngster, dreamed of the eastern seaboard and its rich history. In Windsor we are surrounded by American television and I have allways dreamed of going to Maine and the eastern states. I have been to Vermont twice and LOVE it. Although I just go to ski, I admire the buildings the most. Soon my beautiful bride to be and I will travel to the east on our honeymoon and just move around to revel in its splendor of historical buildings and places. (not to mention the lobster) Clovis
I'm not afraid of the great outdoors!

moonhill

Thanks, Jim.  Clovis, check out Jim's directions at the top of the list, that is square rule.  Now I will go back to Profile and put in Maine.  Tim B.
This is a test, please stand by...

Clovis


Square rule. Found it.  Thats what the barn looks like.
I'm not afraid of the great outdoors!

Clovis

 
Finally got those pics of that barn. The bottom is toast but the loft is in good shape. the rafters are not what i need though. I need 4 by 6 or 8 not 2 by 5" :'(
I'm not afraid of the great outdoors!

shinnlinger

Clovis,

I have a barn frame with some hand hewn beams and alot of old 8x8's, that I was going to reassemble for my house, but in the end I milled all new, why I say that is the frame you just showed is to me not worth the time.  It is too big to really tear down quickly or safely and there isn't awhole lot of good stuff for you efforts.  I suppose a long cable might be worth it to see what happens as you aren't risking much as in "if ti breaks oh well, I can still use something"

BUT if you smash it to peices on the ground how obligated are you to clean it all up?  If you leave a mess is that going to cause friction?  If you are perceived to have walked away with hundreds of dollars worth of lumber, is that good (funny they forget that it took you a month worth of weekends and some rented equipment)  Can the bulk of it be burnt in place after you chainsaw out what you want?  Are the farm boys ready with some tractors and stuff to help?

If It were me, I dont think I would deal with the headache of it all unless I knew for sure there wouldn't be a headache
Shinnlinger
Woodshop teacher, pasture raised chicken farmer
34 horse kubota L-2850, Turner Band Mill, '84 F-600,
living in self-built/milled timberframe home

semologger

Im glad im not on your crew Im scared of high places and that barn looks pretty tall. There is a guy i know wanting us to help him take down some metal buildings with my knuckleboom. We said no thanks. To much of a pain. I like the  barn dont see mainy like that anymore around here.

Ironwood

Well, some plusses are LEVEL ground, LIGHT WEIGHT roof, Siding is already falling off, HMMMM Looks reasonable. The roofing is worth some good cash to the right folks. Floor timbers in the "basement" are ,well ,nasty. Too bad the guy doesn't just reside it with new tin and put a roof on it, the best "green" building s are the ones already standing.  How hard do you want to work?


              Ironwood
There is no scarcity of opportunity to make a living at what you love to do, there is only scarcity of resolve to make it happen.- Wayne Dyer

semologger

We just had an bad ice storm. Ive seen alot of the old barns around here you can just pick up off the ground now. Ice and wind wiped them out.

moonhill

Hey, see that scarf over the post.  Are the braces morticed or spiked?  Looks to be some square rule as well.  Looks to be a nice building, from a distance, which means a closer look would be reasonable.  Maybe shorten the post and live in it.  Looks to be a lot of work.  I would be tempted.  Sorry for the looks.  I still think it would be sad for it to come down. I agree with Ironwood, what would the cost comparison be, new/rebuild?  I'm not saying restore, but rebuild to working building.
     I think the old buildings that come down in Ice storms are because of neglect not old age.  The building above is neglected.    Tim B. 
This is a test, please stand by...

Clovis

It never was really my intention to try and rebuild this barn. I was only thinking of saving some of this old girl from the fire pit that she was heading to. I figured that I could learn just as much about timber framing taking a building down as I could putting one up. If I had the time, energy and money to do a project like this I would not be looking at this one but one that had been cared for over the years. That said I do have a little time and energy and a little money to invest in saving at least part of the old girl for my cottage. I think that incorporating some of this old girl into my cottage would be continuing a long tradition of saving parts of an old building and using them in a new one. This is how I believe that this barn was built. It looks like it has been disassembled and moved to its present site. There are toplates that are used for girts and all the braces have been changed from the original ones. This is also how all the old cottages around mine have been built to. I guess that the best way to build green is to be poor! :D  I thought that I could use the rafters but they are way to small. Not in a structural sense but in an eye pleasing way. they are 2 x 5"- 30" on center, and I would like 4 x 8"- 48" on center. The roof definitely is light and should come down fairly easy but my effort will be in saving the beams. I also am not going to be left on the hook to clean up the mess when she comes down I am only going to be there to salvage what I can. My friends are taking her down weather I am there or not.






















It is a scribe rule barn. What is the proper terminology for the diagonal post for the structural purlins and why did they do it that way? It looks like a simple way to put up a roof for sure.
I'm not afraid of the great outdoors!

Jim_Rogers



In this picture the post that are holding up the principal purlin is a queen post. And because it's on an angle and not straight up, it's called a canted queen post.

And you can see that the center post is let up into the bottom of that tie beam. So from this picture it would appear that this is a square rule barn. A scribed barn wouldn't have a housing for the post into the bottom of the tie beam.....

Jim Rogers
Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
Woodmizer 1994 LT30HDG24 with 6' Bed Extension

Clovis

Thanks for the info Jim. I did mean to type "square" rule but my fingers were moving faster than my brain.

learning everything from a book I thought that queens had to be part of a truss system. Again thanks Jim. Clovis
I'm not afraid of the great outdoors!

moonhill

It is hard to tell but the braces look, off.  It's as if when the barn was last moved they cut the bracing and stuck 2x4's back in place. Tim B. 
This is a test, please stand by...

maineframer

Those braces do look scant. The barn looks like a good candidate to stabilize and use everday---right where it is.
David

Don P

Next time you're in there please take some closeups of the scarfs, especially if any show damage. The jury is still out in my mind and I'd like to see how failure works if it is a concern.

shinnlinger

Clovis,

Unless I am missing something, there is nothing THAT special in that barn.  That said, I completely agree, it would be very cool to use parts of it in your cottage IF they are still sound (You really need to make sure of soundness if you are going to reuse the timbers structurally)

Any whoo, If it were me and I were you, I would let those boys pull the barn down and then wade in with my chainsaw and pull out select timbers that I thought might be useful for my project.  After loading them on my truck I would share some beer  hot dogs and marshmallows and watch the baby burn.  I wouldn't be to concerned over maximizing reuse with all he other factors, safety being the key one, involved.
Shinnlinger
Woodshop teacher, pasture raised chicken farmer
34 horse kubota L-2850, Turner Band Mill, '84 F-600,
living in self-built/milled timberframe home

Clovis

I guess there is nothing special about that barn IF you have seen a lot of them. I have not, and the ones I did look at were always with fascination and not on how they actually went together. I have been reading quite a bit about timber frames and I have been focusing on the full bent (Ted Benson) type of structure.

My cottage is on a very small island (60x160') and there is not a lot of room to work. let alone that I barge over a crane of some sort to lift up the full bents. Looking at this barn was like a light bulb going on in my head. I can do H-bents with continuous top plates (with scarfs) for the walls and the purlins and use a gin pole to raise the plates and purlins. It still would look very pleasing to the eye inside and I would have my timber frame. A more traditional one in fact.

I hope that explains a little better on why this thing has got my attention. Modern full bent framing just won't work for me and I have been trying to figure out how it could all along. Now I have found a solution to my problem, H-bents.

So I can help a friend take down a barn, learn about joints, study how it went up and I can get some free timbers in the process. smiley_clapping

Those are not the original braces that you see in the pics. They were considerably larger looking at the mortises for them. They are a full 2"x4" now in the barn. If you look at the pics of the lower section you can see that one of the beams have pockets for rafters cut into it.
I'm not afraid of the great outdoors!

LeeB

Please educate the ignorant. What is "Modern full bent construction". Not poking fun in any way. This is a real question as I don't know the difference. ???
'98 LT40HDD/Lombardini, Case 580L, Cat D4C, JD 3032 tractor, JD 5410 tractor, Husky 346, 372 and 562XP's. Stihl MS180 and MS361, 1998 and 2006 3/4 Ton 5.9 Cummins 4x4's, 1989 Dodge D100 w/ 318, and a 1966 Chevy C60 w/ dump bed.

Don P

This is a pic of "Benson" style bent construction, post to rafters all in one lift. Kind of like a slice through the building all tipped up at once. I'm not so certain that is strictly "modern" as much as it is just another way.


Check out reply #6 on this thread for a traditional "Sobon" style frame
https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,29935.0.html

LeeB

Would the bents in this pic be for a salt box style frame?
'98 LT40HDD/Lombardini, Case 580L, Cat D4C, JD 3032 tractor, JD 5410 tractor, Husky 346, 372 and 562XP's. Stihl MS180 and MS361, 1998 and 2006 3/4 Ton 5.9 Cummins 4x4's, 1989 Dodge D100 w/ 318, and a 1966 Chevy C60 w/ dump bed.

Jim_Rogers

Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
Woodmizer 1994 LT30HDG24 with 6' Bed Extension

LeeB

'98 LT40HDD/Lombardini, Case 580L, Cat D4C, JD 3032 tractor, JD 5410 tractor, Husky 346, 372 and 562XP's. Stihl MS180 and MS361, 1998 and 2006 3/4 Ton 5.9 Cummins 4x4's, 1989 Dodge D100 w/ 318, and a 1966 Chevy C60 w/ dump bed.

witterbound

LeeB, you're over there real close to Arkansawyer. 

LeeB

Yea, I go see him every now and then and he sends a few custom cutomers my way every once and a while. I try not to hang out with him too much, afraid he'll put me to work. :D :D
'98 LT40HDD/Lombardini, Case 580L, Cat D4C, JD 3032 tractor, JD 5410 tractor, Husky 346, 372 and 562XP's. Stihl MS180 and MS361, 1998 and 2006 3/4 Ton 5.9 Cummins 4x4's, 1989 Dodge D100 w/ 318, and a 1966 Chevy C60 w/ dump bed.

witterbound


LeeB

I got an LT40 Super and pick up a little custom sawing every now and then when I'm home from my real job.
'98 LT40HDD/Lombardini, Case 580L, Cat D4C, JD 3032 tractor, JD 5410 tractor, Husky 346, 372 and 562XP's. Stihl MS180 and MS361, 1998 and 2006 3/4 Ton 5.9 Cummins 4x4's, 1989 Dodge D100 w/ 318, and a 1966 Chevy C60 w/ dump bed.

Clovis

Well tomorrow is the day! My buddy has already got the barn empty and all the hay out of the loft. He has about half of the siding off but I warned him to not go much farther until the roof is off. Its missing some braces and I figure that the siding is helping to hold it up. I'm taking a weeks vacation to pull the timbers off. I have a guy lined up with a 70' boom and bucket to knock out pins and pull off the beams. ($50 per hour was reasonable and thats with the operator) I have not been out to his place since he started to take it apart but he says that the outside beams look pretty good, just have the nails from the siding. I'll post some photos as soon as I get them. Clovis
I'm not afraid of the great outdoors!

Ironwood

Clovis,
You will learn to use the crane quickly and then send him off on his way, the roof and associated parts is where I would use him most. Pins NEVER seem to come out easy, they're usually in a "bind" so keep your saw handy to WHACK them off and keep the operators handle moving the levers!!!

Ironwood
There is no scarcity of opportunity to make a living at what you love to do, there is only scarcity of resolve to make it happen.- Wayne Dyer

rbhunter

The original post said a team of percheron draft horses. That looks like a team of sorrel Belgians. Nice looking team.
"Said the robin to the sparrow, I wonder why it must be, these anxious human beings rush around and worry so?"
"Said the sparrow to the robin, Friend I think it must be, they have no heavenly father, such as cares for you and me."
author unknown. Used to hang above parents fireplace.

beenthere

Rbhunter
Are you referring to Reply #1? ??
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

rbhunter

Yes that is the one I was referring to.
"Said the robin to the sparrow, I wonder why it must be, these anxious human beings rush around and worry so?"
"Said the sparrow to the robin, Friend I think it must be, they have no heavenly father, such as cares for you and me."
author unknown. Used to hang above parents fireplace.

Clovis

Ok, who's idea was this? Oh yea mine. 7 solid hours of swinging a sledge hammer and a 3' pry bar takes its toll on a guy. Well we do have the frame fully exposed and 25% of the roof is off. The guy with the jib was to busy today to come out, he had to go out of town to look at skidoo's!!!!! I don't know if I should hold my breath but he is supposed to show up tomorrow morning. ::)

Hey Ironwood I tried a couple of pins and you were right they don't like to come out to easy do they. I think that they expand in the hole when you are puching them back out. The pins do not have a blunt end they are pointy and they mushroom and then jam about 1.5" out of the hole. I bought a sawsall this morning just in case you were right. Thanks again for the advice guys this place is a lot of help. Clovis
I'm not afraid of the great outdoors!

beenthere

Might it work to drill out the pins?  ...at least to maybe give a flat, blunt end....and then a smaller diam. bit to remove the inside core of the pin. ??  just a wonderin... :)
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Furby

Not on the ones I've done Beenthere.

Clovis

Here are some pics of that barn.... I can't figure out how to get the pic's here but they are in my gallery. To dam tired to think and my sweet heart has had enough of my playing. If ya know what I mean boys. So good night to ya all! Clovis
I'm not afraid of the great outdoors!

Clovis

Going back at that barn today. Nothing done yesterday winds were 40 - 50 MPH here. Being up on a tin roof not the best place to be in that wind. Let alone trying to run a jib.
I'm not afraid of the great outdoors!

Clovis

Well the barn, except for a few rafters, are at my shop and under tarps. Here are a few facts for someone to concider if they are going to do this themselves.

1) Total weight of the beams is around 16000 to 17000 pounds.
2) About 230 man hours not including cement removal (3-5 men at various times)
3) 3 cases of beer and 1 60oz. bottle of Gibsons wiskey. ($160 Canadian for the booze)
4) $500 for the jib crane (10 hours including travel)
5) Equipment used- 1 log skidder, 1 JD tractor to remove beams once on ground, JD backhoe with forks attached to bucket, stake truck with a 22' bed to move the beams to my site, a generator and various power and hand tools, chains and straps, 2 chain saws with 4 chains and 2 large dump trailers for the siding and the roof (about 12 loads).
6) 1 week of my vaction time.
7) 3 large tarps and more needed.
8 2 hundred bucks in gas for my truck to travel back and fourth to the barn site.
9) Total money out of my pocket is about $860
10) It cost me about 5.38 cents per pound for the timbers.

I have seen adds in different publications for free or paid barn removal. I have no idea how anyone could do this if they had to pay or own all this equipment and pay workers to do it and still make money. If it was not for my friends and their help and equipment I could not have done this.

If anyone knows of someone being paid or was paid for this service I'd like to hear about it.

I almost forgot, no one was hurt and no equipment was broken. Wear harneses, eye protection and safety boots, always work safely.
I'm not afraid of the great outdoors!

Sprucegum

  8) Good job - good education - good whiskey - what more can a man ask  ;)

Ironwood

Yes, you are right the math on this "FREE" barn, or "BUY MY BARN AND REMOVE IT" doesnt work. It is gorilla work. There is the barn up from the street from me. The developer who owns it wants to "sell" it for good money because on one general contracting job "he spent $78,000 for used barn wood" . Well, I can tell you it is a LOOOOONG way from here (barn standing) to there. The quantity he bought was ALOT (several buildings worth) and premium quality. This kind of reminds me of the threads about million dollar walnut trees.

Glad everyone got out safe, and now you have a nice body of knowlege IF you want to do it again.

        Ironwood
There is no scarcity of opportunity to make a living at what you love to do, there is only scarcity of resolve to make it happen.- Wayne Dyer

Woodcarver

Three guys stopped by and offered me $500 for our old dairy barn last summer.  They said that was all they could pay because they had no use for the lap siding on the lower part of the barn.  They said they would get rid of the roof metal and leave anything they couldn't use in a pile I could burn.

I didn't take them up on the offer.  I have some things stored in the barn I have to find a place for.  They left a calling card with their phone number.  Whether they will still be in business if I do get around to calling them is an open question.
Just an old dog learning new tricks.......Woodcarver

Clovis

Woodcarver; $500 in your pocket? The only thing that was not owned by the guys with the barn was the jib crane and the 22' stake truck. All other equipment and fuel was supplied by the barn owners. I put in about 44 hours of my time and that included travel of 2 1/2 hours per day. I would do it again though. I learned sooo much that I could never learn in a book. I just love this stuff. When your ready take the 500 and run but barter for a couple of pieces to carve up :D

Ironwood' gorilla work yes, yes and yes. Funny thing is that is close to what I was called during the removal process. The guys kept calling me a monkey because I had no fear of moving around up in the rafters and beams removing pegs or cutting tenons that had pegs in tension. (next time I bring a chain fall and come along, to pull joints in tension tight, to remove pegs)

Like I said above I would do this again. Well guess what, I paid the guy with the jib crane today, he has a job coming up to tear down a BARN! Its a little bigger than this one. He was going to use his excavator to dig a hole and burn it after he crunched it down. Ouch! He suggested that we can work some thing out and he can use a little finesse to take it apart. Things that make you go HMMMMM! I told him I don't want a barn thats ready to fall down and the roof is gone so all the beams are rotted. Of course he said the roof is only a year old and that the owners have too many barns. This one has a lean so this is the one that comes down. I'm going to take a look next week. I'll post some pic's of it.

I telling ya I don't know how I get myself into this stuff! I'm very lucky to have a great girl.

Another thing, in my area timber frames and saving old barns are unheard of. Tell someone that you are doing this and they look at you like you are nuts. Log your own lumber out of your bush is even worse. I get asked "can't you just buy lumber at the store like every one else?

They just don't get it! :D
I'm not afraid of the great outdoors!

Woodcarver

I was surprised they offered what they did.  The barn is in poor shape.  The ground isn't level where it was built.  The sill is at ground level on one end.  It and the ends of some of the posts have decayed.  Some of the beams on the lower level are bent.
I didn't think they would be able to salvage enough from to make it worth their while to tear it down, let alone offer some cash for it.

They tore down a barn on farm a couple of miles away.  I saw their pick-ups and a trailer or two there while they were working on it, but never saw any other equipment.  I think they must have cut the bracing and pulled the frame over after they removed the siding.

 
Just an old dog learning new tricks.......Woodcarver

routestep

For stuck pegs I use a 3/4" rebar piece and a smaller diameter piece (maybe 1/2 inch) to unstick the 3/4 rebar when it gets stuck. I need to get a piece that will just fit a 1 inch peg hole though. I never had to use them in the air, just for trial fit-up. I guess three hands or a good monkey tail would be about right on a ladder.

Clovis

routestep; I just had an epiphany; I was reading your post and I saw "use them in the air" and I thought "AIR" thats it, no more swinging a hammer for me. I have an AIR hammer and one of the bits are broken. I'm going to make a new bit with a 1" bar welded to it to remove pegs. I tried 1/2" and 5/8" bars and they jammed in the mushier and 'in tension' pegs. I switched to a 1" bar and things went a lot better. I also smacked my hand a couple of times with the hammer when I got tired. I think an air hammer will work great. Up on a ladder or on the ground it should be pretty easy to do it that way. I should only need my small air compressor and run it off of the generator.

The smaller bars seemed to flair the end of the peg just enough to make life miserable.

Anyone try this before? Clovis
I'm not afraid of the great outdoors!

routestep

Go for it and report back. I might have a good reason to get a new tool. :)

Dave Shepard

I have heard of using a slide hammer that pulls on a long (4"-6"?) Timberlok screw. I haven't tried it yet, but I have a nice heavy slide hammer to convert. Draw-bore is often destroyed when driving the pegs out, especially with size on size punches.


Dave
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

Clovis

A slide hammer is also a good idea. We use them at work to remove 1" keyways with a threaded end. I'm thinking a 1" rod may be a bit big, I think a 15/16" or 7/8" size may be the way to go.

It's on my list. (of things to do)

I guess part of the problem with removing pegs will be the ones in tension. A couple of the pegs in the first barn were actually bent. If they are going to be removed the pressure is going to have to be released from them. Chainfalls, come alongs, chains, cables and straps are going to be needed. I think I'm going to remove that new barn just to try out what I have learned on it. I want to see if I can keep as much intact as possible.
I'm not afraid of the great outdoors!

Ironwood

Once ""bent" in the joint I found it nearly impossible to get them out, and usually reuse them. Many frames are built with subtle misalinements to ensure the frame is "bound" together. I say that from disassembly experience, I am no timber framer (that is for sure). I have just been around a ton of barns in my region since I was a child (eastern Ohio, Western Pa.) and taken down a number of structures during that time.

     Ironwood
There is no scarcity of opportunity to make a living at what you love to do, there is only scarcity of resolve to make it happen.- Wayne Dyer

moonhill

The slide hammer with lag screw works well, but not always the cure all.  Tim B.
This is a test, please stand by...

Clovis

What a disappointment!  :'( I went out to look at that other barn today, The guy that is taking it down was a little off with his dimensions. Its 1/2 the size of the first one and its balloon framed. All lumber is actual dimension and sawn on a circ mill. (still old at about 80 to 100 years) I am going to try and save the rafters (2x5) and the loft floor joists (2x12x20') and the tin roof if I can. Its about 10 years old. All wood looks like red oak.
I'm not afraid of the great outdoors!

matt eddy

hey keep the excavators away if you want to save the barn.  yes I'm another framer from Maine, i also recommend taking it down in reverse order.  might be worth wild to hire a crane to take the big stuff down.  be careful taking down a old barn, can be dangerous.  I once took down a barn with dove-tail purlins and pegged and as we pulled the roof boarding off the purlins where coming with the boarding.  also be careful of "hidden rot"  i mean the rot thats inside the timbers that you can't see.  you start pounding with a sledge and next thing you no the post is in two pieces and you got a real dangerous situation.  take time to set up good stagging as well!  think safety!  when i do a restoration i always quote it as cost + because it never is as easy as it looks!
Matt

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