iDRY Vacuum Kilns

Sponsors:

Panel door limits

Started by flip, January 31, 2008, 09:34:30 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

flip

I'm 3/4 way through a build of a wardrobe a lady is going to use to store her vacuum cleaners and other cleaning supplies.  The it is approximately 6' 6" tall 25" deep and 4' 6" wide.  I have been using all solid boards glued and biscuited together pocket screwed where two panels meet at a 90.  The door opeining is approximately 30"X66" and I had planned on building a simple frame and panel door.  The door frame is 3 7/8" wide and about 7/8" thick.  I used a router and put a dado down the middle to carry the panel and put a tennon on the ends to lock into the other rails and styles.  My panel is solid cherry that I planed down to about 7/16". The total panel is about 24"X60".  I did the biscuit thing and glued it all together.  I purposely selected the boards for the panel because of the grain pattern (I think this is where things went bad).  I pulled the clamps off and sanded the panel and set it out of the way for a few days.  I'm ready to put it all together and my panel is warped about 1" 1/2 in the middle.  I did a little squeezing and prodding and got it all together.  I knew at this point everything was going to spring but I assebled it and glued the tennons, the panel floats in the frame.  It sprung so now I'm starting over but I think short of doing a veneer layup I may run another style down the center of my new door and split the door into two panels.  Or should I veneer up and stay with one solid panel and keep the asthetic look I want.  Grrrrrr.  This one gonna drive me nuts.
Timberking B-20, Hydraulics make me board quick

beenthere

Tough call.
Have you considered a double door, to cut the problem in half?

That is a wide door to keep flat, especially over time. 

Just a thought. 
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

flip

That I did but her requirement was for one door ::)  I even mentioned it to her about 30" being a pretty big span for a single panel.  I'm starting to lean more to the veneered panel.  Of course, no one around here has cheery ply.  Woodcraft about an hour south has a 3/4" 4x8 sheet for the bargain price of $155 ::)
Timberking B-20, Hydraulics make me board quick

beenthere

That sounds like the best plan, given your constraints. Hope one of the constraints isn't money.  :)
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Furby

I'm pretty sure Menards up here has Cherry faced plywood, but I'm not sure on their largest size.

flip

We have 2 lumber yard/home centers in town, one about 7 miles away and a Home Depot (which is basically useless if you need any wood for furniture).  None of which carry anything but oak faced or birch ply.  I have to drive about 60 miles to get my veneer but usually pick up a good size load when I go.  This project has no budget  ;)  but it has to be all solid wood, which I am finding out can be a pain sometimes.
Timberking B-20, Hydraulics make me board quick

metalspinner

I like the idea of the center stile dividing the door panel.  Another option is to go thinner on the panel.  1/4" is plenty strong , but not so strong to pull the door out of whack should it want to move. That will also lighten the load on the door joinery and hinges.

Another source to check out for materials is the Habitat  for Humanity Store.  Contracters routinely donate left over supplies to a central drop zone, then materials are dispursed to the local stores for resale.  I picked up 5 sheets of cherry ply for $20 a sheet once.  Cherry and maple mouldings run $4 an eight foot length.  I live in a very small town.  These types of materials are not available to me locally, otherwise.  The nearest lumber dealer is 45min to an hour away.
I do what the little voices in my wife's head tell me to do.

Ed

You shouldn't have assembled the door.  :(
The glue up would probably have straightened itself back out if you would have laid it bow up on a flat surface for a couple of days. The bowing is caused by moisture, one side is free to breathe, the down side isnt. I have a soft maple glue up in my shop right now thats 1/2 x 24 x 48. If it's not flipped over every day, it will warp. If it does warp, an extra day will flatten it back out. Don't add weight to hold it down!!!!! Let it move by itself.
Install the panel when it's flat & you shouldn't have any problem with it staying that way.


Ed

WDH

On wide panels, I leave the panel in the clamps until I am ready for assembly if at all possible.  Are you sure the panel boards were acclimated to the environment that you are working in?  That panel either gained or lost moisture to cause it to bow so much.  If your boards were not fully dry, that is the root of your problem.  Even if they were dry, traffic jams and boards  tend to want to cup ::).  Dogs bark, and cats shed all over the place.  It is just one of the mysteries of life :).

I agree with Ed.  Set it aside for a while if you can in a way that the air can get to both sides evenly.  It might straighten out.  You might also cut it back apart into the original boards, add another board to account for the kerf, and re-glue it.  If you do, be sure and alternate the growth rings on the boards if you can.  What I mean is start with a board, say bark side up (from looking at the growth rings on the end of the board), and then make the next board bark side down.  Alternate this way if you can.  It helps even out the stresses.  With cherry and walnut, this can be hard to do since there might be some sapwood that you do not want to show.  As for me, it does not bother me to have some sapwood showing.  I like the nice contrast.  Makes it look real rather than mass produced.  Wood is wood, and you have to accept it for what it is.  I have seen few perfect boards.......I am sure there are some out there.  They usually look better as you take them off the sawmill rather than after they are dried and planed when all the little foibles are easy to see.

Metalspinner also makes a good point.  Making the panel thinner will make it behave better in the frame-and panel use. 

Sorry to hear that you are having this problem.  A warping panel can cause you to pull out your remaining hair, especially if it is sycamore.  Don't ask me how I know this :).
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Dodgy Loner

All good advice, WDH.  I don't have enough clamps to keep my panels glued up until I'm ready to use them :-[, so I just prop them up where the air is able to circulate around both sides.  I haven't had a single problem with warping, yet.  Then again, I haven't used too much flatsawn sycamore, either ;).

Quote from: WDH on January 31, 2008, 11:45:28 PM
A warping panel can cause you to pull out your remaining hair, especially if it is sycamore.  Don't ask me how I know this :).

Speaking of which, a good friend of mine asked me this week if sycamore was any good for lumber.  Based on your experience, I told him to be sure to quartersaw it!
"There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey." -John Ruskin

Any idiot can write a woodworking blog. Here's mine.

flip

According to the Lingomat the wood was 10%, air dried for a year and it sat in the heated shop for 3 weeks before it was machined.  The grain was not alternated because the center board had sap on it so it was put to the inside.  The panel was 3 boards chosen because they were almost sequential out of the log and had nice grain pattern.  May try to go back and resaw some thinner stock (got a new Griz 17" bandsaw last week) and use narrower boards this time.
Timberking B-20, Hydraulics make me board quick

Furby

It don't help you, but I stopped at Menards today and the one I was at stocks 1/4"x4'x8' Cherry plywood.
It was on sale for $43.99.
They can special order 1/2" and 3/4" in a few days or so, but I didn't get a price on those.

SwampDonkey

Jointing wide boards can be troublesome in itself, they like to cup. Also watch the end grain, if this board has rings turning up U-shape, the next board should have rings turning down n-shape, avoid boards close to the pith for panels. 30" is quite wide for panels, but how tall? (Ok 66") I would go down to 1/2" thick in a door panel.  There is a way to do it. I remember those heavy, I mean heavy hard maple doors in the college dorm. They were solid 1-3/4" hard maple on steal door casings and the door handles were stainless steel.

Some bad characters used to penny in their neighbors by securing a couple pennies near the door latch by bracing the outside of the door to wedge them into the casing. This was usually done about the time the inhabitant needed to get to his exam.  ::)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

low_48

If you get your plywood from a big box store, it probably won't be any straighter than the sycamore. Especially if the plywood is from China. Do you have access to anyone that can order from Hafele? The have a system that is similar technology to a nek rod in a guitar.

http://www.hafele.com/us/external/catalog/bh/440-448.pdf

scroll down the page a bit to see the hardware. I've never used one, but have seen recommendations that says it works.

flip

Here's what the partially assembled case looks like.
The front panels are 7/8"X12"X75".  Sides are 3/4"X25"X75". 








Pre stained the interrior, glue and pocket screws.  I have a little more finished since I took these.  Cut the old door panel down to 3 1/2" strip and reglued in 2 seperate panels and made a new door frame with a verticle divider.  Planed the panels down to 1/4 per MS suggestion.
Timberking B-20, Hydraulics make me board quick

low_48

Love the way you used matched boards for the front pieces. Sign of a real artisan! Congratulations.

flip

Tryin' to do the same with the door panel but that bit me in the rear, thanks for the compliment.
Timberking B-20, Hydraulics make me board quick

flip

Here's the new door I dry fitted last night and some crown I made on the table saw.  Stuck them up there to get an idea how it would all look together.











Timberking B-20, Hydraulics make me board quick

WDH

That looks great!  She should be most pleased with that beautiful work, Flip.
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Norm

It looks great flip, beautiful craftsmanship.

SwampDonkey

Who would complain with that flip? Looks very nice.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

metalspinner

Can't wait to see it with a finish! 8) 8)
I do what the little voices in my wife's head tell me to do.

flip

Finish, BLECH.  Yea, she couldn't leave it natural or even just tung oil, she wants the Cherwood gel stain ::)  Told her to wait a couple of months and it would turn colors.  She didn't get it. ;)
Timberking B-20, Hydraulics make me board quick

OneWithWood

One With Wood
LT40HDG25, Woodmizer DH4000 Kiln

Dodgy Loner

Nicely done.  I think the double panel really adds to the interest in that piece!
"There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey." -John Ruskin

Any idiot can write a woodworking blog. Here's mine.

Thank You Sponsors!